NZDF General discussion thread

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I think you missed the point, it was said that if the situation was desperate, this could happen, or if the situation was urgent, Buying new, the equipment is years away and if you need it now re-activation is always an option.
True enough but there is also the issue of where do you store them so they don't rot away making activation very difficult. Buying new kit in a timely manner is the real solution, another C-F failure that is common to both NZ and Canada.
 

Aerojoe

Member
I would expect the DCP to be delayed yet again and the end of the year, early 2026 is the most likely release time frame!! They are "kicking the can down the road again!!"
How long can they keep pushing it out - first it was June '24 and then October '24 and then March '25?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I think you missed the point, it was said that if the situation was desperate, this could happen, or if the situation was urgent, Buying new, the equipment is years away and if you need it now re-activation is always an option.
TBH I think that the hypothetical scenario raised is more, it might be able to happen, and reactivation might be an option.

Much would depend on what the actual conditions are for both the aircraft, and the avionics. If there is too much fatigue in the airframes, too few parts available to support the mechanical components, or the avionics are too far shot and/or removed, then retired P-3's would not be reactivated.

One needs to remember that the Kiwi P-3's were originally P-3B's delivered in the mid-to-late 60's (IIRC one of the Kiwi P-3B's was gotten second hand being an ex-RAAF P-3B).

One of the Kiwi P-3 upgrade programmes run during the early-mid 00's updated some of the avionics and re-winged the aircraft. However, IIRC when they were re-winged the new wings were not wired with the then current MIL-STD databus, which sharply limited the options available to make effective use of ordnance from Kiwi Orions.

If the avionics are still good, and the aircraft themselves are mechanically sound and in flightworthy condition, then they might provide some usefulness for broad area maritime domain awareness.
 

jbc388

Member

kiwi in exile

Active Member
Can you see a pattern occuring??? times nearly up for the March 2025 release....next thing a press release saying delayed until the end of the year!!!

Also looks like the cuts are continuing New Zealand Defence Force proposing to cut 374 roles, union says | RNZ News

This government is bloody useless!!!
Sounds almost DOGE-y.

The troubling thing is there is no discussion publicly of what the restructured organization will look like.

At least they can reassure us they are committed to the magic 2%
 

jbc388

Member
Sounds almost DOGE-y.

The troubling thing is there is no discussion publicly of what the restructured organization will look like.

At least they can reassure us they are committed to the magic 2%
Yes There is no discussion because they most likely are only going to do the bare minimum required and I can forsee the funding only reaching 2% over the next 5 to 10 years the government is in no hurry to actually fix the issues with the NZDF!!! Otherwise the housing/staff retention/wages would be well on the way to being sorted!! but they have done bugger all!! just the same old talk rolled out yet again!!

The PM is nothing but "All talk and no action"
 

jbc388

Member
Yes There is no discussion because they most likely are only going to do the bare minimum required and I can forsee the funding only reaching 2% over the next 5 to 10 years the government is in no hurry to actually fix the issues with the NZDF!!! Otherwise the housing/staff retention/wages would be well on the way to being sorted!! but they have done bugger all!! just the same old talk rolled out yet again!!

The PM is nothing but "All talk and no action"
I heard on the radio this morning the DCP is going to be released I think next week!!! Bloody hope so as you can only "kick the can so far!!"
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
I mean if it came from Labour it must autonmatically be wrong right...

Newsroom understands that strategy – the defence capability plan – went to Cabinet at the end of last year. And that is where it remains.
Short sighted penny pinching domestic politics concerns and fear of focus groups vs real long term stratetigic thinking and leadership.
Luxon is not a wartime or peacetime leader
 

jbc388

Member
I mean if it came from Labour it must autonmatically be wrong right...


Short sighted penny pinching domestic politics concerns and fear of focus groups vs real long term stratetigic thinking and leadership.
Luxon is not a wartime or peacetime leader
Luxon is just not a leader fullstop!! Can't make a decsion when needed!!!, defers to others all the time!!! He needs to grow some "Balls" and actually LEAD FROM THE FRONT!!!
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Just what I thought would occur "Nothing" typical NZ Government!!!
I've never seen a DCP (or equivalent) fully executed over time so I'm 'meh' about the whole thing... if a Govt is pushing for a bunch of specialised civvy staff to go they ain't really interested in spending big $$$ so they'll have a plan... then a few years of committees & ROI's etc so any significant new capability (maybe other than B757 & SH2G replacements) will be unlikely this decade.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Gents, I understand your frustrations, but patience please as when it is released it will be vastly different from those of the last three Govt terms in power (1999-2008, 2008-2017, 2017-2023). The last "decent" review, from a balanced force perspective, was in 1997 (and disregarded when the Govt changed two years later). All those that followed 1997 had a narrower "unbalanced" foundation (which did ease slightly over time but the main foundation was largely the same). However it is clear in both analyst and Govt commentary in recent times that the focus will change to realistically reflect the world we now live in (which will only become "worse"), that expenditure will grow and that interoperability with Australia needs to be better (and from that one can assume wider ABCANZ interoperability using Army terminology). And if the NZ Govt is now talking about increasing lethality, then presumably the best way to achieve this is with balanced capabilities.

Gibbo makes a valid point that these reviews are never on time ... so following on this review can the Govt simply have regular (annual or biennial) updates? Eg in order to incrementally makes changes to plan to add new capabilities as the strategic situation warrants this? Surely that could be a logical solution to these (supposed) five year plans, which effectively halts Defence planning and acquisition for a couple of years as each time there is a change of Govt they review the landscape (and even when Govt's are continuous for 2-3 terms Defence planning seems to halt for a year whilst the review is conducted). This is no longer good enough in these times. Yes, it means setting up a continuous review team in the MoD but it means they are already there to provide bipartisan advice to each flavor of Govt when there is a change. "We" no longer have the luxury not to do something like this in these now uncertain and changing times (or no doubt something else that other commentators here could better articulate).

So whilst nothing official has been articulated that makes any real sense of what the reasons for DCP release hold up is, if one reads between the lines the answers are in plain sight. Curiously our professional defence and security analysts haven't provided the answers but someone who I believe has is Thomas Manch. Forget Newsroom and Radio NZ (in particular, who seem obsessed at picking holes in defence/Govt efforts and presenting some really misleading conclusions - more about this later), go read his articles at The Post on foreign affairs and defence. They are balanced and informative.

From his article "Washington wants defence "burden sharing" from New Zealand" on 20 March. Some snippets:

US Secretary of State Marco Rubio discussed defence “burden sharing” with Foreign Minister Winston Peters, according to the US State Department.

Rubio, who is US President Donald Trump’s top diplomat, and Peters met in Washington DC on Wednesday morning. Peters afterwards said he was “very pleased” with the discussion, which covered both security and trade matters.

A brief statement published on Thursday by the State Department, which Rubio heads, said the pair discussed “avenues for strengthening defence cooperation through burden sharing, allowing our militaries to work more closely together, and ensuring security and economic strength in the Pacific region”.
****
“We came to the United States to ask the new Administration what it wants from New Zealand, and we conveyed what we would like from them,” he said in a statement issued on Thursday morning.

“This visit has provided the starting point for considering what constructive cooperation between New Zealand and the United States might look like in the months and years ahead. It is just the first step. We will now go back to New Zealand to discuss with Cabinet colleagues what we have learned here in Washington.”


So in other words, with the change of Govt in the USA and with the new Trump Administration's expectations, the NZ Govt sought to clarify defence (and trade) and this will now better inform the DCP. So by the sounds of things it gives NZ/US some added clarity to better work on some co-operation initiatives and potentially acquisition options (if so, another reason for the delays)? Now of course, the NZ Govt isn't going to trot this all out and hence this is probably why we have the wishy-washy generalisations for answers coming from them until any proposals are discussed, agreed to (or not) and then signed off by Cabinet.


Next, Mr. Manch better outlines the situation in an opinion piece. Snippets from a follow up article on 22 March:

We have learnt little from Peters’ week in Washington, really, other than that he has heard the Trump administration’s “expectations” of New Zealand.

These expectations have conformed with Peters’ own expectations.

But the New Zealand public can’t expect a briefing on these expectations from its foreign minister – that is first for a Cabinet discussion.

At this moment, it might serve New Zealand to listen rather than speak, as Peters has effectively done.

*****
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has already said the Government will lay out a path to 2% of GDP in the coming defence capability plan, which was to be made public in the coming week. Now Luxon is saying “weeks”.

Cabinet has yet to settle on this plan as the fiscally-tight 2025 Budget nears, and it appears the latest delay is due in part to wanting to first hear Washington’s “expectations” directly.

Washington’s view also complicates the domestic conversation. If New Zealand hits that 2% GDP target, have we ceded to Washington’s bullying demands?

The stronger argument is possibly that, with such uncertain US policy and deteriorating regional security, it’s first and foremost in New Zealand’s interest to spend more on defence – that it pleases Washington should be a second-order concern.

*****

The rest of the article talks about the linkages with tariffs and trade, and the Pacific.

If anyone has trouble accessing the article try clearing your cookies or get in touch via the messaging.


So piecing things together, the reality is as NZ is not a wealthy nation (in comparison) and has to make careful decisions on defence investment and its relations with primarily Australia and the USA. Clearly there will be an expectation from Australia and the US to better support allied efforts to stabalise the Indo-Pacific (alongside the likes of Japan, South Korea, the Philippines and further west, India).

Does this mean that if a DCP was released on time in 2024 that it may have looked different to one about to be released in 2025? I can only guess yes it would. But would it now be "better"? Probably, on the assumption that there will definitely be a higher spending pathway ahead (than what may have been envisaged last year) and that relationships with the US and SE Asia are being strengthened since our change of Govt 2023 i.e. since 2024 and into 2025. So now with the expectation to better plan for and provide capabilities "concurrently" i.e. provide a reasonable and timely presence when required to support Australian and US efforts in the wider region to assist the likes of Japan, SK, the Philippines and of course our South Pacific neighbours. To do so presumably means an increase in "mass" and/or perhaps some new or restored capabilities in time (I have no insight but I say the latter because surely by not doing so we would still be a burden and bring little to the table etc).

I also wonder if the NZG is waiting on the US Administration's 2 April tariff announcement (probably later tonight or tomorrow our time), as that will affect our trade and income to fund a wide range of NZG initiatives, but I'm unclear on what the implications would be for defence directly (apart for being another reason to hold off making a DCP announcement, eg perhaps as they re-asses Budget forward estimates etc)? If so let's hope the DCP isn't further caught up in the latest global foreign affairs "turmoil"!
 
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Aerojoe

Member
Gents, I understand your frustrations, but patience please as when it is released it will be vastly different from those of the last three Govt terms in power (1999-2008, 2008-2017, 2017-2023). The last "decent" review, from a balanced force perspective, was in 1997 (and disregarded when the Govt changed two years later). All those that followed 1997 had a narrower "unbalanced" foundation (which did ease slightly over time but the main foundation was largely the same). However it is clear in both analyst and Govt commentary in recent times that the focus will change to realistically reflect the world we now live in (which will only become "worse"), that expenditure will grow and that interoperability with Australia needs to be better (and from that one can assume wider ABCANZ interoperability using Army terminology). And if the NZ Govt is now talking about increasing lethality, then presumably the best way to achieve this is with balanced capabilities.

Gibbo makes a valid point that these reviews are never on time ... so following on this review can the Govt simply have regular (annual or biennial) updates? Eg in order to incrementally makes changes to add new capabilities as the strategic situation warrants this? Surely that could be a logical solution to these (supposed) five year plans, which effectively halts Defence planning and acquisition for a couple of years as each time there is a change of Govt they review the landscape (and even when Govt's are continuous for 2-3 terms Defence planning seems to halt for a year whilst the review is conducted). This is no longer good enough in these times. Yes, it means setting up a continuous review team in the MoD but it means they are already there to provide bipartisan advice to each flavor of Govt when there is a change. "We" no longer have the luxury not to do something like this in these now uncertain and changing times (or no doubt something else that other commentators here could better articulate).

So whilst nothing official has been articulated that makes any real sense of what the reasons for DCP release hold up is, if one reads between the lines the answers are in plain sight. Curiously our professional defence and security analysts haven't provided the answers but someone who I believe has is Thomas Manch. Forget Newsroom and Radio NZ (in particular, who seem obsessed at picking holes in defence/Govt efforts and presenting some really misleading conclusions - more about this later), go read his articles at The Post on foreign affairs and defence. They are balanced and informative.

From his article "Washington wants defence "burden sharing" from New Zealand" on 20 March. Some snippets:

US Secretary of State Marco Rubio discussed defence “burden sharing” with Foreign Minister Winston Peters, according to the US State Department.

Rubio, who is US President Donald Trump’s top diplomat, and Peters met in Washington DC on Wednesday morning. Peters afterwards said he was “very pleased” with the discussion, which covered both security and trade matters.

A brief statement published on Thursday by the State Department, which Rubio heads, said the pair discussed “avenues for strengthening defence cooperation through burden sharing, allowing our militaries to work more closely together, and ensuring security and economic strength in the Pacific region”.
****
“We came to the United States to ask the new Administration what it wants from New Zealand, and we conveyed what we would like from them,” he said in a statement issued on Thursday morning.

“This visit has provided the starting point for considering what constructive cooperation between New Zealand and the United States might look like in the months and years ahead. It is just the first step. We will now go back to New Zealand to discuss with Cabinet colleagues what we have learned here in Washington.”


So in other words, with the change of Govt in the USA and with the new Trump Administration's expectations, the NZ Govt sought to clarify defence (and trade) and this will now inform the DCP. Now of course, the NZ Govt isn't going to trot this out and hence why we have the wishy-washy generalisations for answers coming from them.


Next, Mr Manch better outlines the current situation. Snippets from a follow up article on 22 March:

We have learnt little from Peters’ week in Washington, really, other than that he has heard the Trump administration’s “expectations” of New Zealand.

These expectations have conformed with Peters’ own expectations.

But the New Zealand public can’t expect a briefing on these expectations from its foreign minister – that is first for a Cabinet discussion.

At this moment, it might serve New Zealand to listen rather than speak, as Peters has effectively done.

*****
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has already said the Government will lay out a path to 2% of GDP in the coming defence capability plan, which was to be made public in the coming week. Now Luxon is saying “weeks”.

Cabinet has yet to settle on this plan as the fiscally-tight 2025 Budget nears, and it appears the latest delay is due in part to wanting to first hear Washington’s “expectations” directly.

Washington’s view also complicates the domestic conversation. If New Zealand hits that 2% GDP target, have we ceded to Washington’s bullying demands?

The stronger argument is possibly that, with such uncertain US policy and deteriorating regional security, it’s first and foremost in New Zealand’s interest to spend more on defence – that it pleases Washington should be a second-order concern.

*****

The rest of the article talks about the linkages with tariffs and trade, and the Pacific.

If anyone has trouble accessing the article try clearing your cookies or get in touch via the messaging.


So piecing things together, the reality is as NZ is not a wealthy nation (in comparison) and has to make careful decisions on defence investment and its relations with primarily Australia and the USA. Clearly there will be an expectation from Australia and the US to better support allied efforts to stabalise the Indo-Pacific (alongside the likes of Japan, South Korea, the Philippines and further west, India).

Does this mean that if a DCP was released on time in 2024 that it may have looked different to one about to be released in 2025? I can only guess yes it would. But would it now be "better"? Probably, on the assumption that there will definitely be a higher spending pathway ahead (than what may have been envisaged last year) and that relationships with the US and SE Asia are being strengthened since our change of Govt 2023 i.e. since 2024 and into 2025. So now with the expectation to plan for and provide capabilities "concurrently" i.e. provide a reasonable and timely presence when required to support Australian and US efforts in the wider region to assist the likes of Japan, SK, the Philippines and of course our South Pacific neighbours.

I also wonder if the NZG is waiting on the US Administration's 2 April tariff announcement (probably later tonight our time), as that will affect our trade and income to fund a wide range of NZG initiatives, but I'm unclear on what the implications would be for defence directly (apart for being another reason to hold off making a DCP announcement, eg perhaps as they re-asses Budget forward estimates etc)? If so let's hope the DCP isn't further caught up in the latest foreign affairs "turmoil"!
The DCP can't be far away as I cannot believe that all the pieces on Defence spend in the media today are simply coincidence. The Government will take some comfort from the RNZ-Reid survey showing more than half of Kiwis agree with an increase in defence spend.
 

htbrst

Active Member
Judith Collins said at the HMZNS Manawanui grounding inquiry today that the timeline for the DCP release has moved up from "soon" to "very soon" . A reporter did ask specifically if this meant pre-budget and she repeated this answer.

Presumably they wanted to get the HMNZS Manawanui findings out before the DCP release given how much they were told off about underqualified personnel and issues of the lack of systems commonality across the fleet that may require investment.

The DCP can't be far away
 

Gooey

Well-Known Member
recce

Many thanks for your thoroughly engaging The Post reference and Mr Manch's opinion piece: aside from the obvious US expectation that NZ increase the defence burden, and China's reaction to our closer engagement to India, I am minded to highlight the following:

"What this means for the Pacific in literal terms under Trump is less than obvious, beyond that US military command in Hawai’i will no doubt be furthering their preparations for another Pacific war."

I await your writing on RNZ, whom I am finding increasingly irrelevant and infantile in the national security space.


htbrst

To say that the HMNZS Manawanui inquiry reporting was toe-curling embarrassing and indicative of a hollowed out, incompetent navy, is I believe an understatement. It may be understandable that RNZN is not operationally on top of high intensity ASW, or non-kinetic effects, but to be unable to drive a boat without hitting a rock is gross negligence by individuals and the system.

Sadly, from the press conference it appears disciplinary action is next. Speculating: if this involves CO Mangawanui that is understandable; likewise if this involves Chief of Navy due to systematic failure.


All

Winter is coming, in more ways than one. We live in interesting times and our maritime fighting forces are less than minimal, hollow, and not first tier.

Collins remains confident that DCP will be released shortly and provide the resourcing. Whether that is true and if there will be time for change to be implemented is an open question.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
To say that the HMNZS Manawanui inquiry reporting was toe-curling embarrassing and indicative of a hollowed out, incompetent navy, is I believe an understatement.
Unfortunately this also applies to the air force and may apply to the army, though I have not seen any evidence in the armies case. The lack of competent and experience personal has been an ongoing issue for years and in some area's a decade or more. they don't need a DCP to fix this and getting shiny new gear without the capable people is not going to achieve much, except for the photo shoots and propaganda value.
 
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