NZDF General discussion thread

Gooey

Well-Known Member
Gibbo

Have a like for your list compilation.

Air / Space:
1. It could be argued that these UAS are another hollow capability and that it would generate more operational capability to use these resources to build out core missions in 5 Sqn with additional P8's
4. Yep
5. Why, when 1, 4 and 6 need resourcing?
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I see the new DCP as another case of political smoke and mirrors and they are just reallocating the remains of the $20b first allocated in 2017 and confirmed in 2018 by the then new Labour government and later by the following DCP. Since then it has been very slow progress in spending it and probably just bring some of the unspent back into the forefront. There is no attempt to actually build a force to defend NZ which we had in the late 1980's. As I said all smoke and mirrors.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The Arrowhead design must be a shoe in now? With the fleet review being beaucratic theatrics. The Arrowhead is available as both a Frigate (A140) and OPV (A120). Capacity to build them in Scotland quickly, and Babcock have done their homework with NZ Suppliers on board.
Is the Arrowhead 120 still available? I've not seen anything about it from Babcock for a long time. As far as I can see it was a completely different design from Arrowhead 140/AH140.

AH140 is a modified Iver Huitfeldt, which itself is based on the hull of the Absalon class. Absalon is a sort of frigate/transport hybrid. AH120 seems to have been a new hull design.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
I see the new DCP as another case of political smoke and mirrors and they are just reallocating the remains of the $20b first allocated in 2017 and confirmed in 2018 by the then new Labour government and later by the following DCP. Since then it has been very slow progress in spending it and probably just bring some of the unspent back into the forefront. There is no attempt to actually build a force to defend NZ which we had in the late 1980's. As I said all smoke and mirrors.
I get where you are coming from (and don't disagree with some of the general tone) but I wouldn't characterise it so negatively overall. Yes the foundations are from recent reviews (which is natural, i.e. imagine if instead there was continual chopping and changing each time a govt changed) but this review is somewhat broader and plugs some missing gaps (such as in the technology, digital and industrial base areas - yesterday DefMin Collins said something along the lines of NZ industry producing (or perhaps she really meant collaborating with others) to build "drones". Also the mention of logistics and the need to up stock (our relatively small range of) munitions etc. IMO it's a good start as the baseline for future reviews and thankfully reviews will now become biennial and be tweaked as needs change.

In terms of "unspent" funding of past reviews ... as you note that's was the problem. The funding was never fully allocated in the first place (the 2020-2023 Govt takes the ultimate cake - they produced DCP19 and issued a foreboding review in 2022 ... but didn't fund any new CapEx projects during their time in office. And reading between the lines previous DefMin Andrew Little made in an interview a few months ago he couldn't get the then Finance Minister to approve a solution for a critical helicopter project, which I interpreted more as meaning the "rumor" of leasing AW-159 Wildcats to overcome the Seasprite availability issues rather than the project acquisition itself?), so this review is in effect a catch-up for lost time and in essence commits $12b (or $9b excluding depreciation - note that depreciation can be utilised for future investments) for the next 4 years and that is a major positive. NZDF's existing assets will now be fully configured (armed) and some projects that were earmarked for the 2030's have been brought forward (eg long range maritime "drones). Personnel numbers are to grow (nearly double that envisaged in DCP19) and we look to Budget 2025/26 to see if the Govt commits to further improving personnel wages and such like (the media have been pressing the Govt on this and the responses appear to acknowledge this need without giving anything away, so let's see).

My only criticism would be (as somewhat aligned with some of the thoughts of Gooey, Gibbo's and yourself), is that ideally some other new initiatives should be started now (i.e. in this 4 year funding window) to build up additional "lethal" capacity to enhance the defence of NZ (and by association the SPac and to better assist Australia). Off the top of my head, it could be anything from advanced jet air trainers (to add to the "advanced" part of the flying training syllabus and as a lead in for the future) for the Air Force, for the Army moving a component of the "future land-based strike" into the "now" to give the gunners another tool in their kit to familiarise themselves with other capabilities our allies take for granted (and to better inform the future acquisition projects. I'd even be looking at the new US Army light tank project as a potential option to support infantry in the island-hopping campaigns for the 2029 future needs etc). For the Navy, as the Maritime fleet renewal is in motion best to wait until that concludes.

However I get that, and others here have articulated well, NZDF needs to rebuild its "base" including personnel numbers and outdated infrastructure so that takes priority in the short-medium term including enhancing existing kit.

Another thing, at the Govt press conference I noted the PM and DefMin were actually talking about the "here and now" i.e. the DCP's 2025-2028 timeframe so that explains why, when asked by the reporters, they answered the "Frigates" and HMNZS Manawanui won't be replaced nor see the return of the ACF.

But we know three things. Firstly the Frigates will be replaced (in the DCP's 2029 time-fame onwards). Secondly that the Maritime Fleet renewal project who knows could recommend a fit-for-purpose replacement for Manawanui (hence DefMin Collins saying it won't be replaced is entirely consistent and "logical" when she is talking about the DCP projections, as they are of now, for 2025-2028, and thus existing OPV assets can be tasked to take over some of Manawanui's roles). Thirdly the DCP's somewhat (deliberate) ambiguity about future investments for additional maritime strike across domains suggest something else could be acquired, akin to ACF (manned or unmanned), or perhaps say "cruise missiles" (using the ADF's long range missile strike options as an example) but there is still work to be done in this space to better inform future decision making and no doubt in association with our Australian cousins to add something to their arsenal. So the fact that it is mentioned is signaling an intent.

Just a final few other thoughts. I would say the era of the two-Frigate navy will be over (after all how we got to that was purely political and in a "benign security environment" era, which is now over). So it will be back to 3-4 (or possibly "more" if the replacement OPV's turn out to be "FFBNW" options of the same), after all Navy have been advocating for this for a while now (and the funding will be there post 2030) and the recent ANZAC FSU upgrades have exposed the fallacy of the "minimum viable capability of two" when both vessels were only not available during the FSU upgrade process, they then needed time for the crew to regain competency operating the new systems so were not available for deployment for several more months. And by achieving capability "mass" it also means increased personnel numbers minimising "hollowness" issues if critical and experienced personnel leave or are unavailable due to training, skillset advancements or spending time learning with other navies etc.

On the 757 replacement project, that's quite substantial funding for essentially two pax airliners, so wondering if the options under consideration include a third, and/or cargo conversion, and/or new infrastructure such as hangers, and/or squeezing in one (or potentially two) supplementary airlifters eg additional C-130J-30, to make up for potential cargo carrying shortfall? I say the later from reading up on historic decision making when the C-130H's (and 727's) were first purchased, the issues being pax v cargo and the need at times to be able to carry both versus the need at times to prioritise one over the other (eg if we have a Ministerial trade delegation flying overseas it is better to tie up a non-mil spec aircraft, to ensure mil-spec type availability for other urgent or short-notice taskings. So a potential supplementary airlifter buy is to make up for a primarily pax only acquisition configuration cargo short fall. In essence a C-130J-30 has about the same cargo carrying capacity as the current modified 757-200's, which will be lost if only 737/A321 pax only a/c are acquired, hence .... ). But who knows I could be wide of the mark.

I still think there is a need for at least a couple more P-8's, which would help strengthen the ANZAC cooperation connection. However the likely reality is 5 Squadron is still rebuilding aircrew/groundcrew support numbers into the short term (the squadron's commander has said their target is for 50% more additional aircrews than aircraft), but considering it takes a 2-3 years to achieve a production slot and another couple of years to actually build and test them, it would be ideal if this could be reconsidered at the two year review point (or perhaps a decision is made now to hold back the long range endurance capability. As others have said (Gooey!) it takes time to build this capability including (presumably) both taking away existing personnel and recruiting new personnel to operate these capabilities 24/7. It will be another learning curve (which could be overcome if push came to shove) so I dearly hope Defence will be (if not already) liaising very closely with its RAAF counterparts operating MQ-4C and/or USN with its MQ-9B to better inform planning and understanding operational needs.
 
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At lakes

Well-Known Member
Is the Arrowhead 120 still available? I've not seen anything about it from Babcock for a long time. As far as I can see it was a completely different design from Arrowhead 140/AH140.

AH140 is a modified Iver Huitfeldt, which itself is based on the hull of the Absalon class. Absalon is a sort of frigate/transport hybrid. AH120 seems to have been a new hull design.
My understanding was the arrowhead 120 was a proof-of-concept design for the 140. At the time i read somewhere that it was never their intention to develop it as a corvette a light frigate or anything else. it was just establishing the ideas Babcock had at the time in the development of the 140. cannot give you a link as I don't remember where i saw it.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I see the new DCP as another case of political smoke and mirrors and they are just reallocating the remains of the $20b first allocated in 2017 and confirmed in 2018 by the then new Labour government and later by the following DCP. Since then it has been very slow progress in spending it and probably just bring some of the unspent back into the forefront. There is no attempt to actually build a force to defend NZ which we had in the late 1980's. As I said all smoke and mirrors.
Actually that $20 billion was never allocated because that DCP was never funded. The funding for the P-8A Poseidon and C-130J-30 acquisitions was done on Ron Marks watch. However with this DCP I suspect that it will be funded, especially Major investments 2025-2028 with Indicative Cost. The upcoming budget being delivered on 22nd May 2025 will tell us whether or not it has been funded.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Minister of Defence has authorised NZDF to acquire and use one way attack drones a.k.a., kamikaze drones. The stipulation is that a human will always be in charge, especially when being used to attack enemy combatants. This is a sensible decision and I am pleased with the stipulation because I have moral and ethics concerns about the use of AI or machine learning making decisions about whether or not to kill humans.

 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Part one of four.

Sources:
Defence Capability Plan 2025.
2025 Defence Capability Plan | Ministry of Defence website

Government unveils $12 billion Defence Capability Plan.
Government unveils $12 billion Defence Capability Plan
Accessed: 07/04/2025.

The much awaited 2025 Defence Capability Plan (DCP) was released on 7th April 2025. It's a different document to previous DCP because it specifically defines threats, recognising that we now live in a dangerous geostrategic environment. It also differentiates the plan and expenditure between two different time periods:
• Near-Term Indicative Investments 2025–2028.
• Future Indicative Investments 2029–2039

The DCP has stipulated an expenditure of $12 billion in Near-Term Indicative Investments for the period of 2025–2028. This comprises of $3 billion already allocated for NZDF CAPEX, and $9 billion in new funding. I would surmise that this funding will be allocated in next month's budget. As long as the $12 billion investment for the 2025–2028 period is actually funded as part of this years budget, the Near-Term Indicative Investments plan will work. In 2017 the then National lead Coalition published a $20 billion DCP but never bothered to actually fund it. The 2019 DCP wasn't fully funded by the Labour led Coalition either. So it is very important that the 2025 DCP Near-Term Indicative Investments are fully funded, otherwise this DCP is just another political wish list. So the government's 2025 Budget delivered on 22nd May 2025, will be the telling point. The two budget appropriations to watch will be VOTE: Defence (which is the Ministry Of Defence), and VOTE: NZDF. The Future Indicative Investments (2029–2039) do not have any funding indications attached to them.

I think that two very important policy changes have to be noted with this DCP. The first is that for the first time since 1984, a DCP specifically mentions ANZUS (P.12), even though in this case it only mentions Australia. The important change is that prior to this, all DCP, DWP (Defence White Paper), and DPS (Defence Policy Statement) documents, since 1985, have specifically referred to Australia as "our only ally" or very similar wording. NZ official use of ANZUS has been specifically avoided unless denying claims that we are active in the ANZUS Treaty, because we were suspended in 1985.

The second policy is that the DCP will be actively reviewed "... every two years in a structured and repeatable process in order to re-evaluate the strategic environment and re-prioritise efforts as needed to ensure the NZDF remains a capable and credible force in a changing world. Reviews will ensure subsequent governments can provide refreshed direction to the DCP, based on an assessment of the current environment, previous decisions, the state of equipment and other key factors. It will also allow a staircase approach to investment, with additional capabilities added to the DCP as the strategic environment demands and the fiscal environment allows." 2025 DCP P.44.

This type of review hasn't been implemented before and I regard it as a good policy. Generally DCPs have been done every five years, and in the current geopolitical and geostrategic environment, such gaps between reviews are to long. Ideally it would be ideal if there were continual reviews of the DCP by officials and the Minister, meaning that when each two year review is due, the majority of the work has been done, and the review will be completed, approved by Cabinet, and promulgated on time.

Another important point and something that is new in a DCP, is that the government now are seriously considering NZDF logistical resilience and are committing $400 - 900 million towards it over the next four years. Resilience has long been overlooked by successive NZ governments, not just regarding NZDF, but across all aspects.

One interesting point is that the Prime Minister stated at the press conference on Monday 7th April 2025 that the funding indicated in the DCP is "... the floor, not the ceiling." Both he and the Defence Minister said "... that you cannot have not prosperity without security."

Part two follows
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Part two of four.

NZ government acquisition costings.
A note on how to NZ government does its sums regarding how it costs acquisitions. Of course every nations governments do these sums differently, so it makes it difficult when trying to ascertain actual capability costs. When the NZ government acquires something there is a basic unit cost. That is like the showroom cost when you buy a new car. However you have extra costs such as the on road costs, plus your overall running costs. It is these costs that are known as:
• Term Of Life Costs (TOLC), which are the costs you incur during the ownership of a capability. And
• Whole Of Life Costs (WOLC) which are the costs that are incurred during the life of a capability.

These costs are for the likes of spares, maintenance, manuals, simulators, infrastructure, insurance, munitions, training etc. Therefore when the NZ government does its sums and announces a capability cost, that cost includes what the estimated WOLC are. For example the unit (showroom) cost of a MH-60R is estimated to be NZ$85 - 90 million each. However MOD & NZDF have found that the WOLC is 50 - 150% of the unit cost, depending upon the capability. So if the NZ government acquired, say 10 MH-60R then they would announce the costs as being, for example $2 billion.

Major investments 2025-2028 with Indicative Cost.

Maritime Domain.
• Enhanced strike capabilities: $100–300 million.
• Frigate sustainment programme: $300–600 million.
• Persistent surveillance (uncrewed autonomous vessels): $50–100 million.
• Replacing the maritime helicopters: $2 billion plus.

Land Domain.
• Javelin anti-tank missile upgrade: $50 million.
• Network enabled army: $300 - 600 million.
• Special operations sustainment: $50 - 100 million.
• Vehicles for the NZDF: $600 million - $1 billion. Includes LAV turret upgrades, along with replacement of Unimog and Pinzgauer vehicles.

Aerospace Domain.
• Counter uncrewed aerial systems (UAS): Up to $50 million.
• Long-range remotely piloted aircraft: $100 - 300 million.
• Replacing the Boeing 757 fleet: $600 million - $1 billion.
• Space capabilities: $300 - 600 million.

Information Domain.
• Enhancing cyber security capabilities: $100 - 300 million.
• Enterprise resource planning: $1 billion plus.
• Improving intelligence functions: $50 - 100 million.
• Updating classified digital services: $100 - 300 million.
• Accommodation, messing and dining modernisation:

Defence Estate Infrastructure.
• Accommodation, Messing, & Dining Modernisation: $100 - 300 million.
• Defence estate regeneration: $600 million - $1 billion.
• Defence housing programme: $300 - 600 million.
• Future Devonport naval base design: Up to $50 million.
• Ohakea infrastructure programme: $300 - 600 million (this is the final phase of the program).

Defence Science and Technology.
• Defence, Science and Technology uplift: Up to $50 million.
• Technology accelerator: $100 - 300 million.

Digital Domain.
• Information management: $100 - 300 million.

Logistics.
• Logistics resilience: $300 - 600 million.
• Consolidated Logistics Project Infrastructure: $100 - 300 million.

People.
• Implementing a workforce strategy: $50 - 100 million (this excludes salaries).

Part three follows
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Part three of four.

Future Indicative Investments 2029 - 2039.
Maritime Domain.
The intention is to:
• Replace the Multi Role Vessel, HMNZS Canterbury. However no indication has been given of the government's thinking.
• Acquire persistent surface and sub-surface surveillance.
• Replace the current frigates and patrol vessels.
• Acquire a Southern Ocean patrol capability. This has been ongoing for ten years now with nothing definitive being decided.

Land Domain.
The intention is for:
• Replacement of the 105mm light gun. Options are open as to what will replace them.
• LAV replacement.
• NEA.

Aerospace Domain.
The intention is for:
• C-130J-30 Super Hercules upgrades.
• Long range & long endurance UAV. Possibly the MQ-8B SeaGuardian.
• P-8A Poseidon upgrades.
• Anti UAV capabilities.
• Space capabilities.
• Upgrading, or replacing and possible increase of the utility helicopter capabilities.

Information Domain.
The intention is to:
• Enhance cyber capabilities.
• Improve intelligence functions.
• Establish an information warfare academy.

Defence Estate Infrastructure.
The intention is for:
• An ongoing Defence Estate Regeneration Programme.
• Continuation of the Defence Housing Programme.

Digital Domain.
The intention is to:
• Continuation of digital modernise.

Logistics.
The intention is to:
• Address supply chain vulnerability by improving logistics and increasing stocks of munitions and spare parts.

People.
The intention is to:
• Grow and shape the NZDF workforce.

Part four follows.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Part four of four.

Overall the DCP begins addressing the 35 years of decline that NZDF has suffered because of deliberate continued mismanagement and under resourcing by the politicians. This DCP appears to have been built on the 2019 DCP that Ron Mark was responsible for. Judith Collins has, I believe, accomplished a significant feat in extracting $9 billion of new funding over four years, from the Minister of Finance. Given that the NZ Labour Party generally support this DCP and its aims, we may be returning to bipartisan general agreement on defence, moving away from the large swings in defence policy that have been occurring since 1999. Arithmetical this total of $12 billion over four years equates to $3 billion investment per year. If we extrapolate that out to 2039 that gives an investment of $45 billion in 2025 dollars. However it is only a crude guesstimate that the investment expenditure (in 2025 dollars) over the ten years from 2029 - 2039 would be at the same rate as the 2024 - 2028 four year period. Given that both the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defence have stated that the expenditure is at the basement level and not the ceiling level, gives hope that annual investment rate for the duration of the DCP actually increases.

It is great to see that the government is actively looking at having more NZ companies providing equipment for the NZDF. It has been my argument that we have the people and ability to design and manufacture good defence capabilities here. For example, satellites, such as cubesats, are designed and built here. Rocket Lab is able to provide in house, satellites from initial design through to their launch into orbit. We have other space related companies owned and operated in NZ, with some working actively on new and exciting projects. We also have the people and manufacturing capability to design and build drones, especially low cost drones.

I have noted that some commentators are bemoaning the lack of detail in the Future Indicative Investments 2029 - 2039 segments of the DCP. Compared to the 2019 DCP this lack of detail is significant, however I believe that because of the rapid changes we a currently experiencing in the geopolitical and geostrategic environments, this is understandable. The two yearly reviews allow for better and quicker responses to what is a rapidly changing situation. Details will be developed and released as time progresses.

We don't need the real fancy gucci equipment; what we need is something that is good enough to do the job required of it. Defence equipment is really expensive and very high tech, very high quality is great, but quality has a quality of its own. Mass is important.
 

ngatimozart

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Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Arrowhead design must be a shoe in now? With the fleet review being beaucratic theatrics. The Arrowhead is available as both a Frigate (A140) and OPV (A120). Capacity to build them in Scotland quickly, and Babcock have done their homework with NZ Suppliers on board.
Not necessarily because there are other options. Also the AH120 is just a paper design. Generally the NZ government are risk adverse preferring capabiluties / platforms that are mature and in service with our FVEY partners. There is the MEKO 200 design and the MEKO 100.

It is not so much the hull design that is important in commonality but what goes inside the hull is important commonality wise. So the propulsion systems, machinery, electronics, electrical systems, weapons systems sensors, IPMS and CMS etc., should have good commonality. So in both hulls you use the same systems but some of the systems in the smaller platform should be smaller versions of the same system where possible. That is where you get your maintenace, logistical, and training commonality, which are the three major cost items.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Actually that $20 billion was never allocated because that DCP was never funded. The funding for the P-8A Poseidon and C-130J-30 acquisitions was done on Ron Marks watch. However with this DCP I suspect that it will be funded, especially Major investments 2025-2028 with Indicative Cost. The upcoming budget being delivered on 22nd May 2025 will tell us whether or not it has been funded.
Yep, but it was part of the NZ first Labour coalition agreement. Don't get me wrong what is happening is an advancement on what we have and welcomed, however I still think that the end goal should be the ability to defend NZ at least in the interim and I cannot see this government going in this direction. What I see is a look good feel good effort that does improve the situation, but fails to address the goal of defending NZ.
On the 757 replacement, I think the money would be better spent on a propper military transport as some now have cabin noise down to commercial levels and can carry a significant passenger load. However would not look good in the VIP role for the PM.

And as a footnote welcome back Ngati
 
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downunderblue

Active Member
I couldnt stop biting so apols in advance but FWIW I'd suggest that limiting the NZDF to the defense of NZ is like baracading oneself in a house whilst ignoring the ability of an adversary to stay outside and easily set it on fire. You may have reasonable padlocks but it doesn't matter in that scenario, does it?

Now I know this will get a lot of comeback and honestly I want to stay out of it (its your question alone) but there is a mirror here that equally can be applied to the ADF. The strategy is to operate within the northern maritime approaches. I'd suggest if the threat continues past those approaches then we are in the poo big time. Ideally we should both be focused on those approaches (including the SW Pacific) as the logic is what affects us affects you, and visa versa.

If the money is so scant and the current force so hollowed out that the only way you can commence this is by developing at home then I potentially get it, but again if the threat is knocking on the door I'd suggest we've lost anyway. I'd suggest that defending NZ best occurs at a location no where actually near it.

And yes I also get the politician angle. We should be happy with what food we are given, as there is no guarantee of getting more so just make do with what you have. It doesn't quite work when your permanently starving and underweight, but it is what it is.
 

ngatimozart

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Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Yep, but it was part of the NZ first Labour coalition agreement. Don't get me wrong what is happening is an advancement on what we have and welcomed, however I still think that the end goal should be the ability to defend NZ at least in the interim and I cannot see this government going in this direction. What I see is a look good feel good effort that does improve the situation, but fails to address the goal of defending NZ.
NZDF has been hollowed out and we need to start somewhere. The pace isn't what we would like but there are some things that you cannot rush. In this case because there are so many areas that desperately require restoration, improvement, and upgrading, they have to start somewhere. We don't have $50 billion to chuck at it overnight, and even if we did what would we acquire? We could make the oft repeated mistake of buying capabilities that are not the best fit and / or fit for purpose. I can think of a few. We need to determine what capabilities we require, because there will be new capabilities introduced; ones that we have never used before, and ones that are replacements. Finally we simply don't have the people at the moment and as you and I know it takes a significant amount of time to turn a new recruit into a fully trained sailor / soldier / aviator.
On the 757 replacement, I think the money would be better spent on a propper military transport as some now have cabin noise down to commercial levels and can carry a significant passenger load. However would not look good in the VIP role for the PM.
Yes I agree and hopefully that may occur during Future Indicative Investments 2029 - 2039 planning. Suggestions for it may even appear in the 2027 review. My preference would be an A400M and A330MRTT acquisition, say four A400M and three A330MRTT. Time will tell.
And as a footnote welcome back Ngati
Thank you. My life has been quite busy because I have a few things on the go including organisation of a 2027 reunion.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I couldnt stop biting so apols in advance but FWIW I'd suggest that limiting the NZDF to the defense of NZ is like baracading oneself in a house whilst ignoring the ability of an adversary to stay outside and easily set it on fire. You may have reasonable padlocks but it doesn't matter in that scenario, does it?

Now I know this will get a lot of comeback and honestly I want to stay out of it (its your question alone) but there is a mirror here that equally can be applied to the ADF. The strategy is to operate within the northern maritime approaches. I'd suggest if the threat continues past those approaches then we are in the poo big time. Ideally we should both be focused on those approaches (including the SW Pacific) as the logic is what affects us affects you, and visa versa.

If the money is so scant and the current force so hollowed out that the only way you can commence this is by developing at home then I potentially get it, but again if the threat is knocking on the door I'd suggest we've lost anyway. I'd suggest that defending NZ best occurs at a location no where actually near it.

And yes I also get the politician angle. We should be happy with what food we are given, as there is no guarantee of getting more so just make do with what you have. It doesn't quite work when your permanently starving and underweight, but it is what it is.
No need to apologise.

We aren't the only country that would consider a narrow geographicallly limited defence of the homeland strategy. For example Australia does it on occasion. What we do have is great defence in depth distance to work with, even more so than Australia because we don't have anyone geographically close to us. That big bunch of blue wobbly stuff is an advantage, however it is an advantage that we either use or misuse. Most, if not all of the Kiwi political elites, govt bureaucratic elites, and the vast majority of the NZ public see that big patch of blue wobbly stuff as an overly large moat that protects us. They are sea blind and seablindness is a near fatal strategic flaw. We simply don't have the capabilities to regularly monitor our EEZ let alone our SAR area of responsibility, nor our AOMI (Area Of Maritime Interest), let alone do anything kinetic about threats.

We have to start somewhere and if it means home island defence first then so be it. So we must begin addressing our defence in depth problems and that takes time. From the DCP it appears that we will be acquiring both the surveillance tools and kinetic effectors. But they take time to acquire, integrate, and achieve IOC. In some cases it could take a very long time to achieve FOC.
 
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ngatimozart

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Staff member
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It is exactly the foundation that is needed to get the NZDF on track. I would have been suspicious in anything "revolutionary" as it would have been out of place for our immediate needs this is exactly the shot in the arm we need, coupled with a favourable budget in May for pay and conditions for personnel.

Important details are up to 2 Billion for Maritime Helicopters, that is no half measure and would see a respective sizeable number for us. (Spain Purchases 8 MH60's for $950 US)
Unmanned capability across most areas, though the spend indicator suggests Tritons are sadly out of the picture.
Actually I hope that Triton is definitely out of the picture because it is overly expensive for what it does. When I last looked one Triton UAV had the same flyaway cost as a P-8A Poseidon. Then there is the cost of the base station and other infrastructure. It's actually money we don't have. The MQ-8B SeaGuardian would be a far better fit for us, because we can acquire and operate more of them vis á vis the Triton.
Up to 1 billion for Strategic Transports with reference to personnel movement and freight, seemingly divergent from a commercial lease of A320 size aircraft which was mooted last year and reference personnel only. I don't want to get carried away but if joint capability is on the cards RAAF has capability in that space which I think we could mirror, and Whenuapai has the space for all of it.
The two aircraft that will replace the B757 will take up a goodly portion of that $1 billion. I am thinking that they may have other aircraft in mind such as more C-130J-30 and acquiring Beechcraft B350 or similar to both replace the current leased ones and increase the numbers. IIRC that lease expires in 2027. I know that both types are tactical aircraft, but it wouldn't surprise me if that is where the remaining balance from the A321NEO / B737MAX acquisition might end up.

Leased aircraft are ok but commercial leases can restrict the usage of them. For some strange reasons civilian aircraft owners don't like having their assets being subjected to armed and annoyed unfriendly using them for target practice.
Strike capability for P8's, Frigates, and potential land based systems which going down the joint path with Australia may see the 16th Field Regiment being renamed.
One capability that wasn't mentioned was GBAD (Ground Based Air Defence] for the Army. It is one area that NZDF (and the ADF) are sadly lacking in. It has to be a multi tiered system with MRAD, SHORAD, & VSHORAD capabilities using missiles, guns, EW and drones. The ADF has NASAM and we should acquire probably three batteries of it, but ensuring that they are mobile which means capable of being launched from the back of truck without needing to be placed on the ground. The Russo-Ukrainian War clearly illustrates the need for mobility and air defence assets are mercilessly hunted and destroyed by both sides.

I don't necessarily see a requirement for 16 Field Regiment to be renamed. However there is a requirement for them to move away from towed artillery to SPH, MLRS, mobile GBAD, and maybe a mobile AShM capability. I would think that three batteries of each would suffice. Again I point to the lessons from the Russo-Ukrainian War.
A good start on defence estate but a lot more is needed but will get the ball rolling. Devonport looks like it will stay put for the foreseeable future and recent developments to Whenuapai and Ardmore will see RNZAF Auckland and Papakura retained also.

Finally a focus on the defence industry it doesn't take a genius to see we lost out in hundreds of millions by not working with Australia with its invigoration of their defence industry over the last 10 year.

This is exactly the jumpstart required and if adhered to will be incredible for the NZDF and NZ. As the PM said this is the floor not the ceiling.

NB Should the coalition be returned I would expect the Frigate replacement to be mentioned in the next 2 year review.

(Low Quality) Press Conference 50 Minutes Youtube
Nice and informative post.

I would add that we should replace the LAV with the Boxer because the Boxer's modularity. It even has a 155mm SPH module and that would give us a good SPH capability. The Boxers are built in Australia and after they have an export order for Germany, so we should utilise the production line.

I note that the LAV turrets will be upgraded and even when we replace the NZLAV, we should retain them for training and back up.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Minister of Defence has authorised NZDF to acquire and use one way attack drones a.k.a., kamikaze drones. The stipulation is that a human will always be in charge, especially when being used to attack enemy combatants. This is a sensible decision and I am pleased with the stipulation because I have moral and ethics concerns about the use of AI or machine learning making decisions about whether or not to kill humans.

It’s an interesting point of view. What is the point of view about firing artillery rounds which quite simply explode into anything they are aimed whatever it may be, rather indiscriminately?

How is that more palatable from an ethical point of view from a precision weapon that kills what it is actually intended to kill?
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
Actually I hope that Triton is definitely out of the picture because it is overly expensive for what it does. When I last looked one Triton UAV had the same flyaway cost as a P-8A Poseidon. Then there is the cost of the base station and other infrastructure. It's actually money we don't have. The MQ-8B SeaGuardian would be a far better fit for us, because we can acquire and operate more of them vis á vis the Triton

I would add that we should replace the LAV with the Boxer because the Boxer's modularity. It even has a 155mm SPH module and that would give us a good SPH capability. The Boxers are built in Australia and after they have an export order for Germany, so we should utilise the production line.

I note that the LAV turrets will be upgraded and even when we replace the NZLAV, we should retain them for training and back up.
Sea guardian is better for us than Triton for its ability to deploy munitions and sonobouys. There is also a rough field STOL version wing/landing gear conversion kit available based on the Mojave mq9 that is c130 transportable and could be forward deployed to the Pacific.

C-uas/c-ram and shorad could all be performed by the same platform ie skyranger 30/35 that can be mounted on the back of a MHOV. And on the boxer.

Boxer or any other armoured LAV replacement and 155mm SPGs are a lower priority for me as they only make sense as an expeditionary asset. That entails we would have to fly or ship them to a conflict in the pacific We cannot fly them and I don't really see Canterbury doing combat related stuff. Would such a heavy armoured vehicle be the right tool for the SW Pacific?

I think we need to focus on maritime awareness and deterrence 1st ie frigates, mpa's, antiship missiles, etc. and then rethink what shape and role our land forces should serve, rather than simply platform x is old we need to replace it. The role we want them to perform has to fit with their size and where we are likely to deploy them. Are we likely to deploy and sustain a large force of armoured infantry combined arms in our region or further a field? Would that be our best means of contributing to a coalition? Why gear our land force structure in that way. I'm not against lethality in land based systems for the nzdf. I just think "legacy" style platforms like armoured vehicles and big artillery are heavy, expensive and might not be the best tools for the next missions.
 
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