Shanesworld
Well-Known Member
There were a couple of bushmasters in Trentham either last year or early this year with e sqd. Not as big as I thought they would be.
New Zealand Army
- Thread starter Whiskyjack
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- army artilery gunner new zealand sas
Shanesworld
Well-Known Member
Had an exchange with some Canadians a couple of years back and they hadn't seemed that impressed with the lav upgrades they received. Faster turret drive but lost the degree of fine adjustment with traverse was mentioned a couple of times.Some interesting developments for the Army ...
DefMin quoted as saying:
" the Australian built Bushmaster Protected Mobility Vehicle, already in service in small numbers with the NZSAS, had been identified as the preferred replacement for the Pinzgauer". “Its tried, it’s proven, it’s tested, it’s battle hardened and it’s easily supported. “It gives us commonality, compatibility [and] inter operability with our Five Eyes partners.”
More on the potential LAVIII sale:
"In January, Stuff revealed the Army had quietly increased the number of NZ Light Armoured Vehicles (NZLAVs) for sale from 20 to 30. That increase was an attempt to make the fleet more attractive to buyers, according to a minute from a senior officer obtained under the Official Information Act".
More on the LAVIII gun elevation issue:
"But they were not a success in Afghanistan, as shown during the Battle of Baghak in Shikari Valley, Bamyan in 2012, he said. “I know that valley quite well, the guns only went up to 30 degrees. That valley had cliffs of 2000 feet (609 metres). “The LAVs in the Battle of Baghak couldn't shoot high enough in the valley to shoot at the Taliban.”
Will this be addressed during the forthcoming LAVIII upgrade or replacement project? I see the likes of the LANCE RC turret system has a "superelevation mode" of 60 degrees.
Stuff
www.stuff.co.nz
From a personal perspective, I think if you are going to invest in new turrets, you might as well go the whole hog and do it properly and invest in new vehicles. Maybe go with the Australian selection and acquire the Boxer 8x8. The pommy army have also selected the Boxer as well. All three armies are also using the MAN MHOV trucks as well, so it would be feasible for us to follow suite with this. Whether or not the government would be willing to do such, is a completely different story.
The British army should have had the Boxer long ago. The UK was a partner in the original development, but pulled out before buying any. Millions wasted. We then had years of prevarication, fiddling with specifications, & evaluating various vehicles. More millions spent. But after selecting a new vehicle, again, the deal was cancelled.
Eventually, we went back to where we'd started, after wasting years & a huge amount of money.
Shanesworld
Well-Known Member
I think your right. I'll ask the guys at work this week. But I'm sure I've seen them at least at 45 deg.
Perhaps in the article they mean "beyond 30deg" to the vertical (ie. 60deg from the horizontal)? I think just about any AFV (including a lot of SPAAG) would have been struggling in that canyon at Baghak. Having no overwatch (preferably airborne) didn't help either. It was an excellent (dare I say obvious) ambush position. The LAVs have bigger problems in their general lack of armour (only proof against 7.62mm apart from in front) and in their low resistance to mines/IEDs.
I don't think a Boxer is a likely LAV replacement (too heavy / thirsty). I would guess more Bushmasters would be more likely (many many years into the future).
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
You're right, this site lists the DELCO LAV-25 (25mm) turret's cannon having an elevation of 59 deg.
Perhaps the MSM article misquoted the anonymous source?
Believe the issue in Shikari Valley was that the shear steepness of the cliffs was greater than 60 deg i.e. the limit of the main 25mm cannon (judging by the released images of the valley).
I saw raw video of the battle and the is a misnomer. It's a steep sided narrow gorge or canyon, with the sides at the site of the ambush being near vertical. The slope is well past 60° and the cannon on the LAV turret was elevated far higher than 30°. The other problem that the LAV commander had, was that he had friendly troops up the side of the gorge near the top beneath the insurgents.
The Bushmaster doesn't provide the fire support that the LAV or the Boxer provides and that and the protection was why the LAV was acquired in the first place. The Bushmaster is more of a Pinzgauer replacement.
Phase 1 of the PMPC should be completed by 2024. Uncle Ron is talking up the Bushies at present. Phase 2 of the PMCP starts in 2026 so awhile yet.
The one size fits all approach of the past per NZLAV and Pinzer is not going to be repeated with the PMCP. A spectrum approach is where the thinking is heading. In the past (20 years ago) it was thought that a better "value" was to be had with single platform that gave economies of scale. Issue with that is it places things into an operational and quite inflexible cul-de-sac per capabilities.
I wouldn't be surprised if Phase 2 saw some upgraded NZLAV's retained and a new capability introduced. By the time this is over their may well be five platforms across both PMCP phases.
Shanesworld
Well-Known Member
Bushmasters can't be any louder to ride in than the pinzgauers so got my vote (which has less weight than the regimental cat)
Shanesworld
Well-Known Member
The story I heard regards lav was that the original requirement laid down by a certain subject matter expert Corp was for 156 lavs of all types. Ambo, mortar carrier, counter battery radar, etc. Inportantly with an attritional reserve to be able to fight in a major conflict and also see the type out to end of life. This was politically unpalatable and due to other factors was taken off the expert Corp and handed to another that redrew the proposal to better meet the political objectives. With that attrition Al reserve and the fact no interest has really been shown I think it would be wiser to keep the 30 spares and convert some for mortars and Ambo than sell. Acquire bushes through another line of finding.
Shanesworld
Well-Known Member
But fit spike er2 like tha aussies. And distribute to the reserve for runs to kfc.
t68
Well-Known Member
How many bushies are we talking about, as the production line is closed. But I do remember Thales were spruiking a MKII.
I have never been in a bushie they came several years after I got out, but reading the article about MKII it seems easier to live with but not sure how putting doors in the front for the crew impacts the structural integrity of the hull
www.australiandefence.com.au
Mmm so much for my thought that the line was closed they must have made a small line for MKII
www.australiandefence.com.au
I have never been in a bushie they came several years after I got out, but reading the article about MKII it seems easier to live with but not sure how putting doors in the front for the crew impacts the structural integrity of the hull
New variant Bushmaster pushed for export - Australian Defence Magazine
The MR6 has a new hull and driveline features and represents the sixth production run for the PMV, with 1,150 now delivered to eight customers during the five previous runs.
www.australiandefence.com.au
Mmm so much for my thought that the line was closed they must have made a small line for MKII
Thales to export six more Bushmasters to the Netherlands - Australian Defence Magazine
Thales has signed a contract to export an additional six Bushmasters to the Netherlands.
www.australiandefence.com.au
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Wasn’t there something last year about NZ releasing a requirement for 43 protected Vehicles?How many bushies are we talking about, as the production line is closed. But I do remember Thales were spruiking a MKII.
I have never been in a bushie they came several years after I got out, but reading the article about MKII it seems easier to live with but not sure how putting doors in the front for the crew impacts the structural integrity of the hull
New variant Bushmaster pushed for export - Australian Defence Magazine
The MR6 has a new hull and driveline features and represents the sixth production run for the PMV, with 1,150 now delivered to eight customers during the five previous runs.
Mmm so much for my thought that the line was closed they must have made a small line for MKII
Thales to export six more Bushmasters to the Netherlands - Australian Defence Magazine
Thales has signed a contract to export an additional six Bushmasters to the Netherlands.
This will be it.
First Phase of Protected Mobility Project Begins
Defence Minister Ron Mark has announced the first phase of a project to replace many of the New Zealand Defence Force’s operational vehicles.
“Cabinet has approved a project to procure High Mobility Utility Light Vehicles and approved another project to negotiate the purchase of up to 43 Protected Vehicle Mediums
“For the Light Vehicles, Defence is considering the procurement of the Polaris MRZR, which is a militarised development of the side by side All-Terrain Vehicles that are in widespread use across New Zealand.
“The Protected Vehicle Mediums project will give our Army similar levels of capability and protection that our Special Forces currently have with the Bushmaster vehicles already in service.
“For this project Defence is working with the Australian Defence Force and related suppliers to examine whether further cooperation on this class of vehicle is the best way forward for New Zealand. I will bring a firm proposal to Cabinet next year.
Shanesworld
Well-Known Member
I don't know if they were polaris mrzr's but there were a number of atv type vehicles in Trentham and Linton. Maybe 12 or so in Trentham. They took my parking spot.
Very inconsiderate of them. I'd whack in a complaint with the Camp RSM - probably from a distance though
Shanesworld
Well-Known Member
Reluctant too incase he sees my rfl is out of date.Very inconsiderate of them. I'd whack in a complaint with the Camp RSM - probably from a distance though