New Coronavirus threat

[tonnyc]

@Todjaeger While nothing short of full NBC protection will protect against the coronavirus, all of the usual protective method involves some sort of mask wearing. While the kind of masks commonly available can not prevent contact with the coronavirus, a mask greatly reduce the amount of virus-laden aerosol released into the air whenever a spreader coughs, sneezes, or speaks. It won't be zero, and it can't be zero since that requires a different class of PPE, but it will trap most of the aerosol droplets from escaping in the first place. (Edit: I'm not quite sure whether you are talking about tear gas or coronavirus. If it's tear gas, yeah, none of the usual masks will cut it. But well, when they try it by wearing the masks correctly, it does have some coincidental effect in reducing the spread of the virus.)

I realize that the protesters likely don't think about the medical reasons too much, but mask-wearing is not to stop other people from infecting us, it's to stop us from infecting other people. We've covered this some time ago.

Spraying disinfectants on the street and on the crowd is a waste of money though. China and Vietnam both did it during the early days of the pandemic, but I chalk that to them trying anything so they can see what works and what doesn't. It turns out that this one does not seem to have any significant effect when it comes to reducing the spread of the virus. So I agree with you there. Note that in cases where disinfectants are directly sprayed on the street, the concentration used is safe. I mean, we did the same in Indonesia and for a short while we even tried disinfection booths. It was quickly abandoned as not showing any benefit (other than perhaps a false sense of security), but no one got sick during the short period they were tried. I'd be mostly worried at possible allergic reaction.

 

[ngatimozart]

If nothing else the liberal use of tear gas should ensure protestors will at least keep their face masks on.

Actually it might not be a bad idea to spray massive amounts of disinfectants into crowds that are clearly not adhering to social distancing.

I take it that you have never had the pleasure of being tear gassed before. Face masks don't protect your from its loving caresses. Like Todjaeger says it gets into the moist areas in your eyes, nose and mouth. It's not the nicest of experiences.

 

[oldsig127]

I take it that you have never had the pleasure of being tear gassed before. Face masks don't protect your from its loving caresses. Like Todjaeger says it gets into the moist areas in your eyes, nose and mouth. It's not the nicest of experiences.

And burns any exposed sweaty skin. Which is why the Engineer sods ran us around in gas masks before each visit to the tent. Got to make *every* lesson clear.

Lovely memories of standing like scarecrows facing into a non-existent breeze "decomtaminating" while the snot ran down to the ground and unable to breathe in OR out.

oldsig

 

[Todjaeger]

@Todjaeger While nothing short of full NBC protection will protect against the coronavirus, all of the usual protective method involves some sort of mask wearing. While the kind of masks commonly available can not prevent contact with the coronavirus, a mask greatly reduce the amount of virus-laden aerosol released into the air whenever a spreader coughs, sneezes, or speaks. It won't be zero, and it can't be zero since that requires a different class of PPE, but it will trap most of the aerosol droplets from escaping in the first place. (Edit: I'm not quite sure whether you are talking about tear gas or coronavirus. If it's tear gas, yeah, none of the usual masks will cut it. But well, when they try it by wearing the masks correctly, it does have some coincidental effect in reducing the spread of the virus.)

I realize that the protesters likely don't think about the medical reasons too much, but mask-wearing is not to stop other people from infecting us, it's to stop us from infecting other people. We've covered this some time ago.

Spraying disinfectants on the street and on the crowd is a waste of money though. China and Vietnam both did it during the early days of the pandemic, but I chalk that to them trying anything so they can see what works and what doesn't. It turns out that this one does not seem to have any significant effect when it comes to reducing the spread of the virus. So I agree with you there. Note that in cases where disinfectants are directly sprayed on the street, the concentration used is safe. I mean, we did the same in Indonesia and for a short while we even tried disinfection booths. It was quickly abandoned as not showing any benefit (other than perhaps a false sense of security), but no one got sick during the short period they were tried. I'd be mostly worried at possible allergic reaction.

I was specifically referring to the wearing of medical PPE/masks, which when worn properly can provide some protection from becoming infected or infecting others with coronavirus, and having those same medical PPE/masks providing any protection against tear/CS gas.

The other comment, regarding the spraying of disinfectant, was specifically mentioned as spraying disinfectant into or onto crowds of people. That is a very different situation from spraying disinfectant onto surfaces like pavement, walls, doors, etc. that people come into contact with. By and large attempting to disinfect most surfaces seems to be a waste of time, effort and resources, OTOH if the efforts are concentrated on small, frequently contacted surfaces like door handles, elevator/lift buttons, and other similar surfaces that many people are likely to commonly touch over course of a day, then surface disinfecting can help.

 

[Ananda]

The Pandemic Has Given Armies in Southeast Asia a Boost

In Indonesia and the Philippines, military leaders are managing the coronavirus response—with lasting political repercussions.

foreignpolicy.com

This article on increase Military presence in Indonesia and Philippines on handling COVID 19 as the sign of Military crawling back to power is bit far fetch in my opinion.
The article compared handling of COVID 19 in Indonesia and Philippines with military presence to Vietnam and Singapore with mostly run by civilian civil service is like comparing apples to oranges.

Vietnam after all is Authoritarian Communist regime just like PRC. And just like PRC any opposition to Government civil service on implementation on COVID 19 policies, will be handle harshly. Like it or not, in developing nations like Vietnam and some sense PRC shown authoritarian regime due have advantage on pushing down population dicipline toward relative 'less' educated population base.
That's what Military Presence being used by Indonesia and Philippines. Trying to push down population discipline toward mass population.

How this article that quote some 'South East Asia' expert put Singapore as comparison ? Singapore is developed nation, with average population much more educated compared to it's SEA Neighbours. Heck, the average Singaporean even relative more educated to many of other developed industrialized nation.
They can do self discipline much more easier due to their self awareness and abilities to differed right information from bunch false information on COVID 19 in the social media or even conventional media.

I'm very critical to Indonesia present administration, as my post already shown that. However on using Military to push down population discipline in Indonesia, I strongly support that. Too many cases in Indonesia shown where people afraid being tested or refuse to be treated as COVID 19 protocol due to their lack of discipline and taking false information. Many from economics lower segment in Indonesia still think that COVID 19 will only attack upper segment since many of initial COVID 19 patient including the ones that dies come from upper segment that inflicted the virus from aboard or spread it toward their social circles.

I put this article showing that some Western media should understand more the condition of developing countries population, before disagree on using Military in handling COVID 19.
I do agree that Indonesian and Pinoy Administration do mess up in the beginning of the infection. In fact they mess up big time. However so do many administration around the world. Using the military do manage to increase testing substantially in the field in the case of Indonesia, and manage doing tracking more effective. The testing and tracking mostly still being done by civilian health care services. The military and police only providing 'muscle' needed in the case of 'hard' persuasion needed.

Personally, some times during this COVID 19 situation, I miss the 'smiling general'. Like it or not, that 'dictactor' will be able to push down discipline toward Indonesian population much sooner, and handling the mess (like this administration make) more effectively.

 

[Mochachu]

Getting close to 10 million cases worldwide. Keep in mind the vast majority of those who are considered recovered and discharged from hospital are carriers and they also infect others.

Coronavirus Update (Live): 131,392,531 Cases and 2,859,893 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...

www.worldometers.info

 

[Boagrius]

Getting close to 10 million cases worldwide. Keep in mind the vast majority of those who are considered recovered and discharged from hospital are carriers and they also infect others.

Do you have a source for this claim? I'm not aware of significant evidence/data to support it.

 

[Mochachu]

Do you have a source for this claim? I'm not aware of significant evidence/data to support it.

Viruses multiply so fast it's practically impossible to get rid of them once you are infected. The first time you catch flu after you are born, you carry flu your entire life. That's why every time when temperature drops or you sweat you get flu symptoms when your immunity goes down and the flu virus count in your body goes up.

 

[Todjaeger]

Viruses multiply so fast it's practically impossible to get rid of them once you are infected. The first time you catch flu after you are born, you carry flu your entire life. That's why every time when temperature drops or you sweat you get flu symptoms when your immunity goes down and the flu virus count in your body goes up.

Umm. No. That is not how most viruses function. Also there are over 100 different strains of influenza virus, and there are also substrains. There are certain specific viruses that can remain dormant in a person's body for long periods of time, with the potential to become active again, CMV or cytomegalovirus comes to mind as an example. However, that particular virus does not remain in a person's body or cells in a dormant state due to a high rate of replication, for among other reasons, a dormant virus is not rapidly replicating itself.

If a person infected with a virus just had the virus keep replicating itself, the person would at best just never recover. At worst, the virus would end up overwhelming the person's body and they would die.

Also I would be very interested to see a reputable source for the claim that those are considered recovered (which is not automatically the same as getting a hospital discharge) remain carriers and infectious.

 

[Mochachu]

Umm. No. That is not how most viruses function. Also there are over 100 different strains of influenza virus, and there are also substrains. There are certain specific viruses that can remain dormant in a person's body for long periods of time, with the potential to become active again, CMV or cytomegalovirus comes to mind as an example. However, that particular virus does not remain in a person's body or cells in a dormant state due to a high rate of replication, for among other reasons, a dormant virus is not rapidly replicating itself.

If a person infected with a virus just had the virus keep replicating itself, the person would at best just never recover. At worst, the virus would end up overwhelming the person's body and they would die.

Also I would be very interested to see a reputable source for the claim that those are considered recovered (which is not automatically the same as getting a hospital discharge) remain carriers and infectious.

You don't get symptoms if the virus count is low. If the temperature drops or you sweat a lot, your immunity goes down and consequently virus count goes up. That's why in the winter more people get flu. They already had the virus in their bodies. In the summer they don't get sick because their immunity is high which keeps the virus count low. In the winter they get sick because their immunity is low and consequently the virus count is high. When you get sick when the temperature drops, the virus didn't come from outside, it was already in your body all along.

Virus test test you negative if your virus count is low. In the summer your immunity is high so your virus count is low so if you get tested in summer you test negative even though you carry the virus in your body. In the winter your immunity is low so your virus count is high so if you get tested in winter you test positive.

Virus test is like radar. If the object has low RCS, radar won't register it. Likewise, if you have virus but if virus count is low you test negative because virus test won't register if virus count is low.

 

[Todjaeger]

You don't get symptoms if the virus count is low. If the temperature drops or you sweat a lot, your immunity goes down and consequently virus count goes up. That's why in the winter more people get flu. They already had the virus in their bodies. In the summer they don't get sick because their immunity is high which keeps the virus count low. In the winter they get sick because their immunity is low and consequently the virus count is high. When you get sick when the temperature drops, the virus didn't come from outside, it was already in your body all along.

Virus test test you negative if your virus count is low. In the summer your immunity is high so your virus count is low so if you get tested in summer you test negative even though you carry the virus in your body. In the winter your immunity is low so your virus count is high so if you get tested in winter you test positive.

Virus test is like radar. If the object has low RCS, radar won't register it. Likewise, if you have virus but if virus count is low you test negative because virus test won't register if virus count is low.

At this point I have to just ask point blank what medical training, if any, do you possess?

 

[Ananda]

In the summer they don't get sick because their immunity is high which keeps the virus count low. In the winter they get sick because their immunity is low and consequently the virus count is high. When you get sick when the temperature drops, the virus didn't come from outside, it was already in your body all along.

I can't help my self to comment on this. If this is the case, can you explain why hot, humid, tropical regions like Brazil, India and Indonesia shown more increase now when they enter dry and hot seasons ?

 

[tonnyc]

@Mochachu You seem to have overgeneralized the way some viruses work into thinking that all viruses work the same way. There are several viruses whose infection can go dormant and then flare up from time to time and that's likely what you were thinking. But not all viruses work the same way. Each kind of virus is a different species, with their own characteristics.

The influenza viruses and the SARS-COV-2 virus taxonomically diverge at the Kingdom level. As an analogy, humans and earthworms also diverge at the Kingdom level. We and earthworms are both Animalia, but further down in the phylum, order, genus, etc., we're different. Influenza viruses and SARS-COV-2 are both in the kingdom Orthornavirae (RNA-based virus), but further down they're different.

EDIT: I think you're probably thinking of herpes simplex virus and human papilloma virus, which can behave the way you described. But those are completely different. Those are DNA-based virus while the SARS-COV-2 is RNA-based.

 

[John Fedup]

Some not so good news about antibody duration in recovered COVID patients. This might be a problem for vaccine development.

Studies Report Rapid Loss of COVID-19 Antibodies

The results, while preliminary, suggest that survivors of SARS-CoV-2 infection may be susceptible to reinfection within weeks or months.

www.the-scientist.com

 

[John Fedup]

Some better news is dexamethasone may be a useful treatment for patients with severe inflammatory symptoms.

Insight into Dexamethasone’s Benefits in Severe COVID-19

The steroid's exceptional performance in early results from the RECOVERY clinical trial in the United Kingdom is a rational outcome of the drug's anti-inflammatory effects, experts say.

www.the-scientist.com

 

[Boagrius]

Middle East countries like Qatar which have a high infection rate, about 1 in 10, have very few deaths since they already had episode of MERS which killed off the people who don't have antibody so the survivors of MERS aren't affected by SARS all that much.

Qatar COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Qatar Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.

www.worldometers.info

A couple of points:

- SARS, MERS and COVID19 are different diseases caused by different viruses belonging to the Coronaviridae family. There has been no indication in the scientific literature that exposure to MERS provides any kind of immunity/resistance to the SARS-CoV-2 virus that causes COVID19.

- Qatar recorded a grand total of 23 MERS cases since the initial outbreak. This number is FAR too small to have had any appreciable effect on the COVID19 outbreak in that country.

Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus (MERS-CoV) – Qatar

Please provide sources when you make sweeping claims like this, otherwise you are just spreading misinformation which is the last thing we need.

 

[Mochachu]

A couple of points:

- SARS, MERS and COVID19 are different diseases caused by different viruses belonging to the Coronaviridae family. There has been no indication in the scientific literature that exposure to MERS provides any kind of immunity/resistance to the SARS-CoV-2 virus that causes COVID19.

- Qatar recorded a grand total of 23 MERS cases since the initial outbreak. This number is FAR too small to have had any appreciable effect on the COVID19 outbreak in that country.

Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus (MERS-CoV) – Qatar

Please provide sources when you make sweeping claims like this, otherwise you are just spreading misinformation which is the last thing we need.

They aren't all that different. It's called flu, regardless of common cold or MERS or SARS.

Mod edit: You have been issued multiple warnings by a chorus of Moderators and ignored guidance by senior members and various members of the Mod Team. Hence, it is with pleasure that we announce that you are banned.

 

[Todjaeger]

They aren't all that different. It's called flu, regardless of common cold or MERS or SARS.

Mod edit: You have been issued multiple warnings by a chorus of Moderators and ignored guidance by senior members and various members of the Mod Team. Hence, it is with pleasure that we announce that you are banned.

Not so much for the poster's edification, since they have been banned for their (mis)behavior, but more for visitors that do not know any better.

The 'flu', the common cold, MERS and SARS are all different things. Some people who either do not know any better, or are doing so deliberately to be obstructive, might lump them all together, but they in fact are different.

The 'flu' refers to an influenzavirus. Of which there are quite a few, with the breakdown starting as Influenza A, B, C, and D, and then further breakdowns depending on which of the four. The 1918-1920 influenza pandemic was actually a strain of H1N1 Influenza A, similar to but still different from the 2009 H1N1 Influenza A pandemic.

The common cold refers to a broad range of different diseases than can infect someone and cause broadly similar symptoms. One of the viruses which can be involved here is a specific coronavirus. MERS and SARS are also both coronaviruses, as is the SARS-CoV-2 which is causing COVID-19. It is important to note that an influenzavirus and a coronavirus are different types of viruses so that how they can behavior can be different.

For the poster to put what he did above, I can only conclude that either they did not know what they were talking about, or they were trying to provoke a reaction, or they wanted to sow dissension and spread misinformation.

 

[StobieWan]

You don't get symptoms if the virus count is low. If the temperature drops or you sweat a lot, your immunity goes down and consequently virus count goes up. That's why in the winter more people get flu. They already had the virus in their bodies. In the summer they don't get sick because their immunity is high which keeps the virus count low. In the winter they get sick because their immunity is low and consequently the virus count is high. When you get sick when the temperature drops, the virus didn't come from outside, it was already in your body all along.

Virus test test you negative if your virus count is low. In the summer your immunity is high so your virus count is low so if you get tested in summer you test negative even though you carry the virus in your body. In the winter your immunity is low so your virus count is high so if you get tested in winter you test positive.

Virus test is like radar. If the object has low RCS, radar won't register it. Likewise, if you have virus but if virus count is low you test negative because virus test won't register if virus count is low.

That's a...unique take on virology.

 

[John Fedup]

With many following social distancing, hand washing, and wearing masks hopefully well into to the next flu season along with a likely increased desire for flu vaccination, it will be interesting to see if flu hospitalization rates take a nose dive. We can only hope.