My idea's to upgrade the Dutch military.
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- #23
Yes, that's the one.
But I think a ship like the Juan Carlos is more versatile.
And not that more expensive.
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- #24
We had 110 in 2007...
In that year we sold another 100 to Canada...
Not a real Carrier but something like the Juan Carlos or the Canberra class...
Maybe instead of the new JSS (although both is better).
In the worst case scenario they should ATLEAST arm the frigates with Tomahawks...
My mistake. I read that it was based on the Enforcer design, & didn't realise it was a version with no dock. But that was just a proposal - maybe it's changed. Can you point me to information on the current status of the project, & the design, please?
[Edit]I've just seen that Petrac has posted a link. I can understand enough Dutch to get something from that. My time working in Utrecht wasn't entirely wasted.
From what I now know, this is a pic of the JSS (together with an OPV), which will be called HNLMS Karel Doorman. This JSS is the design used to negotiate with Damen (formerly Royal Schelde) about the price. The design has no dock and it will not get one, because it will be too expensive. (The navy makes their own designs and then ask Damen how much it will cost to build it. Then the negotiations start and capabilities will be scrapped in that process.)
The Defence Materiel Organisation expects to sign the contract end of July/beginning of August. Damen expects to sign a contract at the end of the year.
The Defence Materiel Organisation expects to sign the contract end of July/beginning of August. Damen expects to sign a contract at the end of the year.
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- #29
Those OPV don't have any AA nor AS capability (missles) nor a CIWS.
Those do have 5 different calibre guns...
To make it more real.
How about an unmoddified Juan Carlos with F-35B's (these would be stationed in the Antilles too because they don't need a long runway)?
Then we buy F-35A's and block 60's (or gripen) for the AF.
Keep the JSS.
Rest of plans apply.
Better?
Those do have 5 different calibre guns...
To make it more real.
How about an unmoddified Juan Carlos with F-35B's (these would be stationed in the Antilles too because they don't need a long runway)?
Then we buy F-35A's and block 60's (or gripen) for the AF.
Keep the JSS.
Rest of plans apply.
Better?
Yes but dont forget that Greece still views Turkey as a possible rival, and that Turkey maintain the 2nd largest Army in Nato.
The Greeks also views themselves as the gateway to the heartland of europe from Africa and Asia/ME and that they intend to defend that position.
So in there eyes they have a need for a large army.
Would at minimum require severe reconstruction of lifts and hangar. Same problem as France had with Rafale, only to a considerably more extreme extent.
What everybody personally thinks about where the Dutch military must grow to is his or her opinion. However, let's take a threat and capability assessment:
Threats:
None in the EU, except against terrorism and civil defence activities
There is a small threat that Venezuela will act against the Antilles, but with US ANG units flying from Hato, I think Chavez will think twice then to give the US a reason to attack him if he invades the Antilles.
Requested capabilities:
Civil defence
counter-terrorism
participation in peacekeeping and peace-enforcement in multinational environments
So, what do we need for this?
Do we need an expensive carrier battle group including aircraft? Heck no, way to expensive for such a small nation. We can operate together with partner countries should the need for carrier-based aviation arise during an operation. Maybe we can even buy some F35Bs and operate them off the British CVFs ;-)
Seriously though, we do not need 400 Leo's, as we do not have a threat to use them against, maybe some Taleban in Afghanistan as the Danish are doing. We do not need 2 types of aircraft in huge numbers, we do need however higher retention rates and more personnel. We need more rounded-out brigades with organic artillery and tacyical UAVs, no single rented UAV and a few guns.
We need more infrastructure in the Antilles and in my opinion a standard rotational deployment of a few fighters and a battlion-sized unit there. It will also be good training. And we need a good amphibious capability, the two LPDs are good, together with the JSS, but we need something like HMS Ocean too. So we can transport a Battalion taskforce in combat load in one single push and support them via amphibious and helicopter capability in the field. And of course we need the helicopters and the transport aircraft to support our operations.
To buy some extra kit is good for the economy now, just as raising the salaries to beef up force numbers and keep good people in the armed forces.
Personally I believe the Gripen a great plane to have, but I has have to admit the JSF has had no chance to prove itself. We do not need more than one type of aircraft for logistics reasons, although I think 130 aircraft is better then the current levels. We do not need the F16 Block 60, what will it bring additional except the AESA radar? Nothing more a Gripen cannot bring in my opinion.
Cheers
Threats:
None in the EU, except against terrorism and civil defence activities
There is a small threat that Venezuela will act against the Antilles, but with US ANG units flying from Hato, I think Chavez will think twice then to give the US a reason to attack him if he invades the Antilles.
Requested capabilities:
Civil defence
counter-terrorism
participation in peacekeeping and peace-enforcement in multinational environments
So, what do we need for this?
Do we need an expensive carrier battle group including aircraft? Heck no, way to expensive for such a small nation. We can operate together with partner countries should the need for carrier-based aviation arise during an operation. Maybe we can even buy some F35Bs and operate them off the British CVFs ;-)
Seriously though, we do not need 400 Leo's, as we do not have a threat to use them against, maybe some Taleban in Afghanistan as the Danish are doing. We do not need 2 types of aircraft in huge numbers, we do need however higher retention rates and more personnel. We need more rounded-out brigades with organic artillery and tacyical UAVs, no single rented UAV and a few guns.
We need more infrastructure in the Antilles and in my opinion a standard rotational deployment of a few fighters and a battlion-sized unit there. It will also be good training. And we need a good amphibious capability, the two LPDs are good, together with the JSS, but we need something like HMS Ocean too. So we can transport a Battalion taskforce in combat load in one single push and support them via amphibious and helicopter capability in the field. And of course we need the helicopters and the transport aircraft to support our operations.
To buy some extra kit is good for the economy now, just as raising the salaries to beef up force numbers and keep good people in the armed forces.
Personally I believe the Gripen a great plane to have, but I has have to admit the JSF has had no chance to prove itself. We do not need more than one type of aircraft for logistics reasons, although I think 130 aircraft is better then the current levels. We do not need the F16 Block 60, what will it bring additional except the AESA radar? Nothing more a Gripen cannot bring in my opinion.
Cheers
The Invincible class is used by the RN as a Helicopter Carrier (i.e. without Harriers) too. The Ark Royal has operated in this role.
For the Army:
How about supplementing the Leopard 2's with approx. 100 CV90-120T. They'd be much more deployable because of their lighter weight to places like afghanistan. I think they'd fit in more with the idea of lighter more deployable forces.
For the Army:
How about supplementing the Leopard 2's with approx. 100 CV90-120T. They'd be much more deployable because of their lighter weight to places like afghanistan. I think they'd fit in more with the idea of lighter more deployable forces.
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #39
Juan carlos is essentialy a helicopter carrier, with the capability to operate STOVL fighters too...
And it has a landing dock (?).
All in one
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CV90120 is not in production so I would suggest the Centauro...
I still prefer 100 Leo's
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I do not want the military to focus on fighting someone elses war is some desert...
A defencive force but with some offensive capabilities.
And I do believe there will be a war in western-europe sometime.
As for the EU, well there undemocratic federalisation will lead to there fall...
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I'll update the OP and then I would like to hear some comments please
And it has a landing dock (?).
All in one
---
CV90120 is not in production so I would suggest the Centauro...
I still prefer 100 Leo's
---
I do not want the military to focus on fighting someone elses war is some desert...
A defencive force but with some offensive capabilities.
And I do believe there will be a war in western-europe sometime.
As for the EU, well there undemocratic federalisation will lead to there fall...
---
I'll update the OP and then I would like to hear some comments please
OK that is a personal line of thought. I think we are embedded in an international community and will be for the foreseeable term. If you talk about a defensive force in a more unstable Europe, there are much more considerations.
In that case we do not need a carrier-type ship as it will be the first to be taken out during a conflict, we need a strong rotational presence in the Antilles of all arms. At home we need round-out combat brigades, not the skeleton brigades we have nowadays. Then we need to go back to Cold War levels of 2 full combat divisions, but with the equipment of today.
Fighting wars in peace-enforcing operations are much different than fighting a European war. What is the threat level and direction? Are we facing a German, French or British threat in such a scenario? There is no simple answer to this question, I just gave my opinions for the current threat field and type of operations.
I am happy to exchange ideas about a future threat field more in the neighbouring field. SHould be interesting...
Cheers
In that case we do not need a carrier-type ship as it will be the first to be taken out during a conflict, we need a strong rotational presence in the Antilles of all arms. At home we need round-out combat brigades, not the skeleton brigades we have nowadays. Then we need to go back to Cold War levels of 2 full combat divisions, but with the equipment of today.
Fighting wars in peace-enforcing operations are much different than fighting a European war. What is the threat level and direction? Are we facing a German, French or British threat in such a scenario? There is no simple answer to this question, I just gave my opinions for the current threat field and type of operations.
I am happy to exchange ideas about a future threat field more in the neighbouring field. SHould be interesting...
Cheers