My idea's to upgrade the Dutch military.

[IPA35]

Now these idea's are a little unreal especcialy because of the crisis but we could scrape together a couple of billions a years from the foreign aid and bureacracy.

Anyway here's my list.
Some thing are more important and likely than others:

UPDATED

Land forces:
30-40 extra Leo 26A (since latest cuts now 60) These could be reactivated from current stocks.
Reactivate stored Phz2000. (since latest cuts 24 out of 54 including reserves)
Light rocket artilery (HIMARS) 8-16 (Marine corps only?)
New light scout MALE UAV's. (ScanEagle?)
Increase of number of men restart 3e armoured brigade. (+ a handfull of extra Fenneks for the artillery).
Boxer with mortars for artillery

Navy:

4 more 7 provinces class frigate. (might want to sell both M-classes...)
Equipe all with anti-ballistic missle system and Thomahawks...
(ScanEagle?)
Developing new subs (4-6).
Buy the 4 patrol ships as planned.
The new JSS
Keep the 2 Rotterdam classes in service.

Naval aviation:
4 P8 Poseidon
(Maybe helicopters, but the current solution is ok.)

Marine Corps:
A Vehicle like the LAV25 in multiple version.
Light towed artillery (maybe with Fennek's).
HIMARS?

Airforce:
Complete replacement of current F-16 fleet by:
85 Gripen NG
25-35 planes of a second type (F-15SE, F/A-18 or EF).
2-4 SuperHercules
2 C-17's
4 Alenia C-27J (2 to be modified as AC-27J gunship (if available and viable).
1 new KDC tanker.
7 more chinooks. (and modernisation)
Modernise Apache's to Longbow standard. (I don't think more are needed.)
24 Defender 500's (Transport, CAS and AT).
Attack UAV's 12 (Mantis or Heron TP).
More NH90's (sea version).
More different kinds of bombs/missles...
MQ-4 (4)


Air defence.
Extra patriot launchers. (Antilles?)
Buying the norse SAM´s as planned.

Reopen closed (AF) bases and build one in antilles (+ marines and port facilities).

Maybe a few % increase of salary to attract more personel.

 

[ASFC]

Land forces:
40 extra Leo 26A (since latest cuts now 60)
A second tank like 60 Leclerc.
Tank destroyer: like the italian one like 40. (not very important).

Some more Leo2A6s would be handy, but getting a second tank type is a waste of resources IMO, as is a 'Tank Destroyer'.

Navy:

2-4 more 7 provinces class frigate.
Developing new subs (4-6).
Buy the 4 patrol ships as planned.
Some corvettes (homebuilt) 2 OR 4-6 modern Gunboats with (limited) AA and AS capability.
1 small amfibious assault ship/carrier (like the new spanish one).
Probably like the kuznetsov or a little smaller.
16 fighter and some helicopters, some AA and AS missles + 2 goalkeepers.

Yes, 8 DZP Frigates and 4 of these new 'Patrol Corvettes' would make a nice Order of Battle, given the number of amphibious units the Dutch have. Sell the two remaining M class to help fund it. There is no point getting short ranged gunboats or Corvettes. There is equally no point buying anymore Amphibious capability beyond the three ships the Dutch have/or plan to have.
One Carrier is a 'nice' capability to have-but you would really need two to make it worth while and the budget probably would not stand up to that.

Naval aviation:
3-4 Poseidon
F/A-18 super hornet's for carrier an maybe some stationed on land both 12 total 24.
Growlers 8 (2* 4)
Apache's 6-8
SeaHawk's 6

Poseidons yes, but they might be a tad expensive. If there is no Carrier then there is no point in buying SHs or Growlers. Apaches and Seahawks are pointless orders-if you want more Helos expand the NH-90 order.

Airforce:
Complete replacement of current F-16 fleet by:
80 new F-16 block 60's
60 new Gripen NG's OR 40 new Stealth F-15
And when Obama puts the F-22 for sale: 20-30 (as fighter and bomber).

Pointless-order F-35s, as the Dutch Air Force has plans for. Obama doesn't control the export of the F-22, the US congress does. Even IF they were to allow its exports, Dutch pockets would not be deep enough to afford it.

4 SuperHercules
2 C-17's
2 Alenia C-27J

Good idea.

COIN aircraft like Super Tucano or AT-6 (preferably home built one base of PC-9m). 24 (Afghanistan).

No point-iirc the UK discounted that idea as they would be too slow to transit to the areas needed.

3 more chinook.
4 more apache+modernising current to longbow standard.

The Dutch are doing most of that already aren't they?

Small AWACS like the SAAB one 3

Are the Dutch not signed up to the NATO E-3 fleet?

build one in antilles.

Not a bad idea-given Chavezs ranting and raving about wanting it back.

EDIT: Could a friendly mod shift this thread to General Defence? Cheers.....

 

[IPA35]

One small carrier could be built I suppose including those aircraft and including a land wing (1/2) as I think the naval aviation should return.
Station half of it in St. Maarten (+ one or two patriot's) and the other half on the carrier.
(2 units of 12 super hornets and 4 growlers).

I would prefer to be able to operate without NATO but AWACS are not very important.
(But extra transport is.)
Maybe a heli carrier as second, but that a bit expensive.
Would be very usefull in a naval landing (venezuela, if some Falklands like war would hapen).
Poseidon could be shriked to 2 but they need to be stationed in the antilles just like the sold P-3's.

F-22 is possible as the F-16 are like 3 times as cheap as the F-35 (I don't really like those, nor F-35B's for a small carrier but for super hornets you need a bigger one).
I need to see it making production first and I dislike the exportversion radar.

Heli's?
Above the planned aquastions.

I'm just very fusterated about the defence cuts of the last decade(s).
BTW does someone knows the name of those rocket artillery?

 

[ASFC]

F-22 is possible as the F-16 are like 3 times as cheap as the F-35 (I don't really like those, no F-35B's for a small carrier for super hornets you need bigger one).
I need to see it making production first and I dislike the exportversion radar.

F-22 is not possible-I do not ever see US Congress approving it for export (they banned it, not the President), and even then, like I said, the Dutch would need to have some VERY deep pockets to afford it-especially as the small number they might order will not help to reduce unit cost.

Get F-35, there is nothing wrong with it-in many areas it will be a better aircraft to own than F-22.

 

[IPA35]

With the crisis and the limited number of american orders and the foreign interest they might just export it.
(Japan? Australia?, not likely but they asked for it...)

Obama said they will continue low rate production to keep the jobs, right?
But export orders could make a nice profit.

Then we should buy an european plane instead of the F-15+F-22's.
The EF is good for AA combat. (like 60 then)
And the new F-16's.

 

[StingrayOZ]

This sounds very simular to what Australia is planning on getting

60 M1A1 tanks
24 SH F-18 (12 with growler wiring)
We have tigers instead of apaches
We have C-17.. (4)
F-35 on order
3 AWD on order
2 spanish LHD ships..

I think the dutch and the australian military will be able to perform simular missions, slight variations in alternative equipment of simular capability but otherwise fairly simular.

F-35 is what the dutch should get
Leo is a fine tank, do you really need more than 60? Maybe 20 more, but these can be sourced at short notice.
The JCI LHD is a fine ship, but the dutch already have a LHD solution. Not worth it IMHO. The Dutch don't really need a carrier and if they did better buying a full blown italian or spanish real carrier.

 

[IPA35]

This sounds very simular to what Australia is planning on getting

60 M1A1 tanks
24 SH F-18 (12 with growler wiring)
We have tigers instead of apaches
We have C-17.. (4)
F-35 on order
3 AWD on order
2 spanish LHD ships..

I think the dutch and the australian military will be able to perform simular missions, slight variations in alternative equipment of simular capability but otherwise fairly simular.

F-35 is what the dutch should get
Leo is a fine tank, do you really need more than 60? Maybe 20 more, but these can be sourced at short notice.
The JCI LHD is a fine ship, but the dutch already have a LHD solution. Not worth it IMHO. The Dutch don't really need a carrier and if they did better buying a full blown italian or spanish real carrier.

But we are shriking really fast while the Australians are aqtually growing.
(2 types, even 3 types of fighters)
We had like 400 Leo's some decades ago... we had 80 last year but 2009's defence budget says it will be decreased to 60 and from 36 active PHZ2000 we go to 24. and from 85 (105 few years ago) we go to 75.
And there are rumours the 85 planned F-35 do not fit in the new budget, and that they will only buy 50-60 without a second type.

They try do decrease the heavy material while buying IFV's and training elite light infantry brigades.
So they are transforming our military in a fancy police force to patrol deserts...

The military should grow again and it should be focussed on national defence.
And please do not complain about being small, we still have a population of 16.5 million and we are the worlds 16th economy (CIA says 15th above South-Korea and look at there military!)

Australia is basically doing what we SHOULD be doing.

 

[ASFC]

(2 types, even 3 types of fighters)
We had like 400 Leo's some decades ago...

Something called the Cold War ended...A country like the Netherlands can't justify a 400 tank force in a Peacetime budget.

The military should grow again and it should be focussed on national defence.
And please do not complain about being small, we still have a population of 16.5 million and we are the worlds 16th economy (CIA says 15th above South-Korea and look at there military!)

To fight which threat? Which country is threatening Hollands Security that requires 150 Fighters, 400 Tanks etc etc?

Korea spends in the region of 2.75% of GDP on Defence. Holland spends 1.65% of GDP on Defence, and I suspect Holland spends a large amount of it national budget in other areas, such as health, welfare, education etc.

I really agree with some of your ideas, but in many areas your suggestions would need Holland to be threatened by another country for an increase in spending to take place. Whether that happens or not I cannot comment on.

 

[StingrayOZ]

You aren't facing russian tank columns any more. Any tanks are most likely to be used deployed overseas. Few countries have the resources to deploy 400 tanks overseas. 60 is most likely what holland could support or need on overseas missions. Like I said, Germany still has baszzilion tanks and they can be sourced in europe quite quickly.

We don't have any thing like a PHZ2000, but we are looking at buying them. If excess units are left in storage then that lowers operating costs and you still have the capability there if you need to regain it. Its a small compromise.

In some ways the dutch were asperational for Australias new direction. Look at what you can do in Afgan and what we can do. We don't have attack helicopters operational yet, we don't have heavy armoured self propelled artillary. We don't have LHD's.

Theres nothing wrong with getting IVF and things like bushmasters, due to the changing nature of conflict IVF are more useful and suitable than tanks in much of modern warefare.

Australia has proberly a greater threat to deal with, mostly by itself. East Timor was a really big event in defence planning, we ended up leasing ferries and pretending they were warships capable of amphibious operations and showed what sort of situations might arise in the future and what we actually had to deal with them. Failing states are potentially all around us with so many small island nations.

Maybe whats happening in the the Americas with Charves may spur the dutch into a simular stance in the future.

However don't forget back in the day Australia had 2 aircraft carriers, cruisers and destroyers etc. We went to frigates, knives and sharp sticks. You have to hit rock bottom and then bounce back.

I would like to see the dutch and the Australians work perhaps closer together in the future developing and working with projection capability for smaller richer nations.

 

[IPA35]

Can some moderator please move this thread to the proper forum?

[Mod edit] Done. [/mod edit]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
We don't need 400 tanks but we had 100 just a few years ago.
And in 2009 they will be cut from 80 to 60.
I think 100 is the minimum.

PZH-2000

I would like to see the reserve pieces to return to active service (54?)
So we might need some new (so we can keep some of the older ones in reserve.)
And maybe around 8-12 HIMARS's
Some more scout UAV's and a small number of Fennek's for the larger number of personel.
That would do for the land forces and that is affordable, no?


BTW we only spend half the money as the Australians (12billion vs 24 billion).
Less in % of GDP also.

 

[IPA35]

Is the Juan Carlos I big enough for CATOBAR aircraft, if it had a catapult???
(12 Super Hornet + 4 Growler and additional ASW NH90 and transports)

 

[petrac]

Hi all,

In my opinion (as an avid military historian and enthusiast living in this country) the Dutch armed forces aren't doing as bad as some think. Just like all the other armed forces (look at britain) we are struggling with our shrinking budgets and expanding roles and operations. Still we manage a worldclass military liked by our allies and feared by our enemies (like the Taleban). We definitely shredded the Srebrenica syndrom when we fought over Chora a ferw years ago.

However, a wishlist is certainly nce to have, here are my ideas:

Airforce:
- Buy the JAS39 Gripen NG as the next-generation fighter, while delaying the F35 buy to make sure this fighter is as mature as we need it. Both aircraft constitute the high-end mix needed for air operations and have all the neccesary weapons available.
- Buy 20 CH47Fs and upgrade the current CH47 fleet. Double the Cougar fleet or buy a similar amount of NH90s. This will deliver a round-out helicopter fleet for the Airmobile and Marine Brigades. The AH64s are good already.

Navy:
- treble the destroyers, ditch the last frigates to pay for them and fit them with land attack missiles. Reinstate the naval air arm and buy new naval helicopters.
- Buy an LHA type vessel to round out the amphibious capability, the Marine brigade can use this with the navalised NH90 transports.

Army:
- Start recuiting and keep the retention rates up by increasing wages. This will help much.
- Keep the leo's in the same numbers but make sure they are the best, invest in the CV90 IFVs and integrate them as they are versatile IFVs for all troops. Buy a battalion-level UAV to support the troops and invest in networked systems to increase the effectiveness.

Forward deploy a full marine company in the Antilles and create a purpose-built forward base, including a rotating jet detachment. Corvettes such as the one already ordered are perfect to patrol those waters, but this base can make quick reinforcements easier.

The Dutch will continue to operate in Afghanistan-type missions while building a defence structure. We do not need to mimic the US, but keep our national interests secure while enbedding us in the international community, just as we are doing now. We could just invest some more and be smarter about our money ;-)

We do not need a carrier, as we have always operated from land bases. A carrier infrastructure is very expensive while not providing much additional operational leverage. How often do the Spanish and Italian carriers go into combat? We could use an LHA type ship however, just as new patrol aircraft, we should never have sold the Orions to Germany...
I am proud of our servicemen, which use their gear very good. OK, we still have F16As, but our Kosovo and Afghan operations have shown they are just as good as US aircraft!

regards

 

[IPA35]

We are allready buying a LHA but maybe this order can be changed to something like an Juan Carlos (an larger LHA with carrier capability)...
It is not that bigger but alot more capable (way more storage and number of aircarft).

But I'm not fond of the F-35 for variouse reasons so I would prefer a large LHA with a catapult, without ramp...

 

[gvg]

Ok, here are my ideas (that require a huge boost in spending).

Navy:
* Sell last 2 M-frigates
* get 4 more Zeven Provincien Class (now 4)
* replace both AORs by the proposed JSS (although I'd like the second one to have at least 3 heli-spots)
* join Australia for future subs and replace all 4 by at least 4 new ones
* copy Denmark's flex-container concept
* get 2 more OPVs (now 4 on order)
* change OPVs to support the just mentioned flex-containers and make sure the 4 extra ZPs also support them
* adapt ZPs to provide better support against asymetric threats
* adapt current ships to support ScanEagle
* buy Tomahawks, as originally planned
* SM-3 can wait in favour of the Tomahawks
* 40 ScanEagles together with the Army

Air force:
* get 24 Chinooks in total (now 11+6 on order)
* replace Cougars (17) and Alouettes (4) by NH-90
* get 60 NH-90's in total (now 20 on order. Only order NFH variants, that can withstand salt.)
* 60 Gripen NG
* 24 T-50's as COIN aircraft (although I'd replace those immediately for cheaper Super Tucano's or OV-10's, if their speed, range and payload is up to it)

* 12 MALE UAVs that can carry AGM missiles.
* 4 more Hercules' (now 2+2 on order) (or preferrably 8 A400Ms)
* 40 ScanEagles together with the Navy
* ditch Sperwer UAVs

Army:
* adapt TITAAN to support new UAV's from the air force and navy
* get a total of 100 Bushmasters
* new armour for Fenneks
* airco in the Leopards
* get more CV90s if needed

Marines:
* 24 CB-90s
* more armour for Vikings
* replace BV206 with Broncos

All:
* better wages

In general my main focus would be on the Navy.

 

[IPA35]

I'll update the OP...

 

[petrac]

I see a tendency here, as we are asking for more of what we have. More vehicles, more aircraft, more ships. OK, we have personal reasons to ask for T50s, a carrier and/or Gripen/JSF.

In general the Dutch armed forces are doing fine in the case of equipment en doctrine. I for one know our friends and allies are very positive about the Dutch approach to armed forces operations. We should be spending more on retention and basic equipment to enhance our force levels and esprit de corps.

If we can more and better equipment, so much the better, although I still think we do not need a COIN aircraft, as we can do without now in Afghanistan (no-one operates one now), we can better invest in armed MALE UAVs. A carrier is big and expensive for a small navy, we can better invest in better Marine support equipment and leave the carriers to France and Britain, although I am still a fan of a NATO carrier group ;-)

cheers

 

[swerve]

We are allready buying a LHA ...

What is this LHA you are buying?

I thought the planned ship is a replenishment & sealift ship with a dock & flight deck, a so-called "Joint Support Ship".

 

[petrac]

According to the defence site www.defensie.nl the only new vessel is indeed the JSS, a combination of the LPDs and the replenishment ships. It looks like the LPDs we already have, but will have more replenishment and transport tasks, see http://www.defensie.nl/dmo/materieelprojecten/zeestrijdkrachten/verwerving_joint_logistiek_ondersteuningsschip_(jss)

cheers

 

[gvg]

What is this LHA you are buying?

I thought the planned ship is a replenishment & sealift ship with a dock & flight deck, a so-called "Joint Support Ship".

The JSS has no dock.

 

[gvg]

I see a tendency here, as we are asking for more of what we have. More vehicles, more aircraft, more ships. OK, we have personal reasons to ask for T50s, a carrier and/or Gripen/JSF.

In general the Dutch armed forces are doing fine in the case of equipment en doctrine. I for one know our friends and allies are very positive about the Dutch approach to armed forces operations. We should be spending more on retention and basic equipment to enhance our force levels and esprit de corps.

If we can more and better equipment, so much the better, although I still think we do not need a COIN aircraft, as we can do without now in Afghanistan (no-one operates one now), we can better invest in armed MALE UAVs. A carrier is big and expensive for a small navy, we can better invest in better Marine support equipment and leave the carriers to France and Britain, although I am still a fan of a NATO carrier group ;-)

cheers

I agree with you that the main problem of the Dutch armed forces is "not enough", and not so much the lack of capabilities (taking into account the size of the country).
The only capability I am really missing is MALE UAVs.

And although a carrier looks nice, it's way too expensive and I would have other priorities.