JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[webmaster]

Roger Smith, how is Hawk trainer related to K-8 and how does price of hawk determine the price of K-8 and on top of that how does price of both of these trainers determine the price of JF-17 and what does price of K-8 or Hawk have to do with JF-17 topic? Could you please explain the secret behind this ridiculous logic? :?

 

[Indus]

Re: What is the cost per unit of FC-1 / SUPER-7 / JF-17?

K-8 is somewhere between 2 and 8 million.... I think... not sure...I have no idea...

But the JF-17 is definitely $15 million

The Indian government to award a $1.7 billion contract to BAE Systems for 66 Hawk jet trainer airccraft. It means each Hawk cost $ 25.7 million each.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/india/story/0,12559,1035387,00.html

Therefore, the cost of K-8 jet trainer is $20 million each and JF-17 fighter plane should be at least $ 30 million each.

Rogerji, maybe the total cost ($1.7 Billion) of the BAE Hawk trainers includes other things, services.. Yeah that would be funny if a Hawk trainer jet actually cost more than an FC-1 fighter.. but then again im not sure if that $15mil price tag is just optimistic projection.. we wont know until everything is completed i guess..

 

[Roger Smith]

Roger Smith, how is Hawk trainer related to K-8 and how does price of hawk determine the price of K-8 and on top of that how does price of both of these trainers determine the price of JF-17 and what does price of K-8 or Hawk have to do with JF-17 topic? Could you please explain the secret behind this ridiculous logic? :?

In response to your query on cost of K-8 and JF-17 related to Hawk trainers.

1) Aircraft manufacturing is a high cost industry due to R&D factor.
2) If the K-8 was costing at $4 million a unit, China could have flooded the International market and why PAF has only 6 units of K-8 in its inventory.
3) India just contracted to sell 2 ALH (helicopter) to Nepal at Rs. 300 million or $ 6.6 million a unit.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2004/02/mil-040211-irna01.htm
4) The cost of R&D on JF-17 or FC-1 has increased from $150 million to over $435 million. I will try to get the website.
5) PakTribune has clearly stated the cost of K-8 at $20 million per unit.
http://www.paktribune.com/exclusive/exclusivedetails.php?id=70

In conclusion, I feel K-8 cost is at $20 million a unit and JF-17 cost is at $30 million a unit.

 

[webmaster]

Roger,

1st point, that means LCA would cost much more than $35 million as the price tag since it has taken over 2 decades from start of the project to whenever it enters service?

2nd point, countries acquire military equipment on basis of their REQUIREMENT not if a particular hardware is cheaper. Maybe price is a factor but requirement plays stronger role in this process. Moreover, most countries don't really reveal full numbers on their military equipment inventory.

4th point, yes please post source of your information. Should be credible defence related source not local pakistani /indian defence forums, etc.

5th, paktribue isn't known for credibility on defence related news and reports. It could be mistake.

JF-17, HAWK, K-8, LCA are all different platforms, being developed for different under different requirement umbrella. Each crafts price reflects its abilities and labour put into it and cannot be used to determine price of others.

 

[Roger Smith]

4) The cost of R&D on JF-17 or FC-1 has increased from $150 million to over $435 million. I will try to get the website.

In conclusion, I feel K-20 cost is at $20 million a unit and JF-17 cost is at $30 million a unit.

I am herewith giving a link from a German source, which clearly state the cost of R&D on JF-17 is over $450 million.

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FRFC-1.htm

As to LCA, I assume India would not have spent more than $300 million on R&D in past 20 years. Delay has caused due to short of funds and further sanction by USA for not supplying engine of GE404 for LCA. Now India has developed with Russian assistance its own Kaveri power plant for LCA.

I still believe K-8 is at $20 million a unit and JF-17 would be around $30 million. China do give their products at cheaper price to some countries for political purposes.

 

[webmaster]

R&D on JF-17 is over $450 million

India would not have spent more than $300 million on R&D in past 20 years

Pakistan in 10 years spends $450 million on JF-17 whos price as reported is $15 or so million whereas India in 20 years or so has spent only $300 million? :eek In 20 years, india couldnt spare enough funds for this project? This does not make sense. Its no logic.

Realities are far from what one believes or thinks. Certainly India would want that JF-17 is almost same price as LCA for market competition reasons. We (public in general) will believe figures as told by the government officials until something different is heard from the same sources or when these planes start selling.

Costs (Kosten)
Figures of 15 to 20 million Dollars were mentioned in mid-2003.
Development investment is said to be over 150 million US-Dollars, with Pakistan contributing some 75 million. Pakistani sources put the cost at 450 million US-Dollars, with the country contributing 50 to 60 per cent.

Which sources? It looks like magazine is trying to add a line or two to their cost table of JF-17 rather than listing some credible info by a credible source other than "pakistani sources."

Anyone can write it up unless its reconfirmed with statements that of the government and its officials actually saying it and only figure that matters is when the government says so and most of the time they don't tell the truth or its half-truth.

Price about K-8 is not confirmed so I can't really comment on it since your words against mine, mine against yours. As I said in my last reply:

JF-17, HAWK, K-8, LCA are all different platforms, being developed for different under different requirement umbrella. Each crafts price reflects its abilities and labour put into it and cannot be used to determine price of others.

 

[Roger Smith]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

I will reply to the point raised separately.

FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17: When this jv (joint venture) started the initial projected R&D cost forecasted was $150 million and it was supposed to be a low cost high tech figther plane between $10 to 15 million per unit.

As I have submitted a link, where the R&D cost has triple to $450 million coming from Pakistani sources.
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FRFC-1.htm

Naturally, China is going to charge cost of R&D to the buyers. This plane JF-17 will not be less than $30 million a unit.

HAL cost of LCA is $22 million per unit and the selling price to third party would be no less than $25 million per unit.

French Mirage 2000 is at $44 to 45 million per unit, India is planning to buy 100 unit.

Thank you for your attention.

 

[Roger Smith]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

As to your query on trainer jet K-8 and BEA Hawk, both aircrafts are trainer jet.

K-8 is equally a good aircraft, except Hawk has extra role as Light attack aircraft, which India is paying $25 million per unit and $1.7 billion for 66 aircrafts.

Therefore to my judgement K-8 is good aircraft and is at $20 million a unit, for which Pakistan is unable to buy more due to shortage of funds factor.

Thank you for your attention.

 

[webmaster]

Why do you continue to insist the same thing without even reading the points raised? I know what you said, please stop repeating it.

Which sources? It looks like magazine is trying to add a line or two to their cost table of JF-17 rather than listing some credible info by a credible source other than "pakistani sources."

Anyone can write it up unless its reconfirmed with statements that of the government and its officials actually saying it and only figure that matters is when the government says so and most of the time they don't tell the truth or its half-truth.

It looks like somehow you are trying to show that JF-17 is inferior along with expensive and that LCA is superior along with its inexpensive.

As I said before, and if you read:

JF-17, HAWK, K-8, LCA are all different platforms, being developed for different under different requirement umbrella. Each crafts price reflects its abilities and labour put into it and cannot be used to determine price of others.

Why are you throwing prices of fighter jets left and right in order to come up with price of JF-17 and K-8? You cannot use price of one aircraft to guess the price of another. That is NO logic, it does not make sense. Please stop trying.
Cost of labour in China is VERY different than cost of labor in UK and other EU countries. Thats why equipment coming out of China is less expensive than that coming from UK/EU!
They say JF-17 is based on F-16, with your logic the price of JF-17 should be same as F-16 when its not.
Plus, as Indus said the purchase of Hawk also includes services and other benefits that come with such deals. And its all included in that $1.6 Billion.

Pakistan in 10 years spends $450 million on JF-17 whos price as reported is $15 or so million whereas India in 20 years or so has spent only $300 million? In 20 years, india couldnt spare enough funds for this project? This does not make sense. Its no logic.

Realities are far from what one believes or thinks. Certainly India would want that JF-17 is almost same price as LCA for market competition reasons. We (public in general) will believe figures as told by the government officials until something different is heard from the same sources or when these planes start selling.

How is it possible that a country supposedly making 4th gen. jet spends only $300 million in 20 years and still boast that its superior aircraft whereas a country with limited funds spends $450 million on supposedly 3rd gen. plane in 10 or so years?

Don't repeat the same thing again (in your last reply you threw in Mirage too along with K-8, Hawk, and LCA just to determine the price of JF-17 :roll ), answer my questions.

 

[Roger Smith]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

I am sorry if am confusing you.

JF-17 is a good fighter aircraft and has Israeli, Russian, Chinese plus may be Pakistani technology, so definately it is going to be a good fighter. I have provided my claims and sunstantiated with links/site to proof my point on cost factor.

LCA of HAL, it is basically Indian and Russian technology. I will provide the link/site in my next posting that it is costing the government $22 million per unit.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

look. at the end of the day, in my point of view as well as other fellow pakistanis the bottom line is that FC-1/JF-17 is a little more better then the LCA. also at the end of the day it's down to the pilots and as many analysist say that not only are pakistani pilots better than indian pilots but are amongst the best in the world.

 

[Valkyrie]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Roger Smith, the FC-1 project can't possibly more than $150million because if it did, Pakistan won't be intrested in the project. Pakistan's share is roughly between 50-60% which was initially valued at $150million. So the entire deal is worth $300million or at the very most half a billion dollars.

The technology being used on the Fc-1 is not exactly state-of-art. The powerplant is a Klimov RD-93 which is essentially an updated Mig-29 engine. The avionics suite would European for Pakistan and something which is mostly bought off the shelf and installed into the Fc-1 with some modifications. The airframe will be made in China or even in Pakistan, which would mean cheaper manpower and lower production cost. The weapons such as the Sd-10 and the PL-9 are made in China with the SD-10 being a deriviative of the Italian Aspide. Most of the testing and initiall development would be done in China which has a huge aviation industry and an enormous production line would ensure the target dates are met.

The only hick up in the project was in 1998 when Pakistan was having funding problems which is no longer is an issue. If you consider that projects such as the Agosta subs, Al-khalid, F-7PGs, Fc-1 test flight and T-59 upgrades are being accomplished at a steady pace.

Lastly, my point being transfer of technology coupled with off the shelf purchases and low production cost means less R&D which ensures a lower cost of the project and the price per unit.
Cheers...

 

[Roger Smith]

Funny, first time an indian has ever admitted that the LCA is a flop.

However, the FC-1 I think is not a flop, and think it shall serve the Pakistani air force well.

I do not think LCA is a flop, but was not given a priority by the Indian government and is moving alright now with a number prototype LCA being tested.

 

[SABRE]

the cost revealed by government for defence technology is alway low so the public wont be a critic. Do u realy think an advanced 3rd Gen. Fighter would cos this low.

 

[mysterious]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Up-date for you people; Pakistan now has 12+ K-8 Trainers not 6!! There's been planning to get more. Plus; Pakistan would also begin making K-8z on its own probably this year as it plans to export it if orders are received at IDEAS 2004!

 

[Roger Smith]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Up-date for you people; Pakistan now has 12+ K-8 Trainers not 6!! There's been planning to get more. Plus; Pakistan would also begin making K-8z on its own probably this year as it plans to export it if orders are received at IDEAS 2004!

Mys........Do have a link to PAF K-8 inventory as well on your aforementioned statement? :?

Thanks. :smokingc:

 

[mysterious]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Well you'll hafta hold on to your horses for that a bit cuz I read this a few days back. I need to look up the link. Will post it as soon as I find it.

 

[darklegent]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Roger can you give me links to the technological inputs of the countries you mentioned in your post.

JF-17 is a good fighter aircraft and has Israeli, Russian, Chinese plus may be Pakistani technology

I did ask before for information on technolgical inputs and was told that it is a secret.

As quoted by gf0012 onFri Feb 13, 2004

I would assume that all of that info is milspec secrecy bound (a bit like the Yakhont work with Russia I suppose)

As quoted by shamayel Fri Feb 13, 2004

I agree with gf. Darklegent I cannot provide you with JF-17 blueprints in the same way that you cannot tell me the technical details of the LCA.

As regard to the LCA the technical information to sources of most, if not all systems and sub-systems is easliy availble on the net. I am not comparing the JF-17 to the LCA. All I want to Know is the inputs by ISREAL ,RUSSIA, CHINA and most of all PAKISTAN in the Pakistani version of this aircraft.

HELP REGARDING INFORMATION (espeacially urls) WILL BE HIGHLY APPERICIATED.

 

[Roger Smith]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Roger can you give me links to the technological inputs of the countries you mentioned in your post.

JF-17 is a good fighter aircraft and has Israeli, Russian, Chinese plus may be Pakistani technology

To best of my knowledge the technology input on JF-17 by the countries above stated are as follows;

Israel - None in JF-17 but J-10 copy of Levi.
Russia - Design based on MiG-31 and possibly engine.
Chinese - 80% indigenous.
Pakistan - JV cost sharing, no part in technology or R&D.

The aforementioned are my views.

[Admin edit: Quotes fixed. Try and fix your errors immed rather than one of us doing it]

 

[Valkyrie]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

The FC-1 is being made for Pakistan. The project is given a higher priority by the Pakistanis rather than the Chinese who have devoted their efforts to the J-10. Pakistan being a major partner will definetly have some requirements and design inputs which have to be met by the Chinese. The R&D involved has been minimal.