JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[mysterious]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Sabar, no offence, but I thought you could make your post just a little more responsibly put. F-15s and F-16s from the US? Man! Are you telling me Musharraf has become to US what Ariel Sharon is?

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

forget politics here. F-15 is not a good option here the whole point of the F-16 is to save cost on induction and its logistical cost. its common sense Pak won't buy obsolete weapons that could cost Billions to INduct and then there life time would be short, Just to train on F-15 would take a long time the F-16 is the cheapest and best option!!!

 

[SABRE]

Talking about absolete, wouldnt F-16 becom absolete in few years. It has already been 30+ years for F-16 in the service. USAF certainly would be insisting on replacing them with some thing better as well.
Even Russia has developed SU series over its MiG-29 also 30+ years in the service.

What r v going 2 do once F-16 become absolete. Ground them like Sabres

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

It's not age that counts, it's capability and airframe strength. The US has a SLEP in place for the B-52 which will see them in service till 2050. That means that they will have served for 90 years!

The F-16 is no way ready for pasturing. It's got quite a few years left yet.

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

F-16 were built to last they're rugged and cheap in a matter of Speaking Low Maintenance!! Hey ! GF i have a question the AirFrame is Tested and then a Life time is determined rite so technically all the Life time for the frames are either predicted through stress testing or just experience that they(designers) have gained by useing similar material is this True?.

I still think the F-15 If PAF ever Got them would be a waste of already limited resource, F-15 are much more HIgher maintenance, and the Pilots would require extensive conversion training and Familiarization courses for them!!!

Saber I Think the F-15 are going out of Production but F-16 have just been Redesigned in essence the New F-16I, U, S variants are new AC this platform is too goood to Dispose!!! Pak is looking to get an MLU's for there exsisting F-16 that should IMprove the Aircrafts Structural defects and any Micro fractures or something in the AirFrame, the MLU would also Update Avionic systems and the Radar, i think after teh MLU for the 28 OF those Plus 12 more Addition with MLU should form a good Air defence but i still think PAF is Still trying to get more the Idea was was to get 70-80 more F-16.

 

[mysterious]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

To this day, F-16 has been the most successful aircraft with its survivability, experience in warfare and other things. As far as I'm concerned, if there ever was an aircraft that could be relied up on any given time and granted the most worthy of flying, it would be the F-16!! :smokingc:

 

[edisonone]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

What do you guys think. The following spec of the FC-1 was published many a time. Do you guys think that this spec has been deliberately published as it is, so that other nations mainly rivals to Pakistan and China feel no threat so would not interfere. Hence the genuine spec has not been published until the fighter goes into production or even test phase.

Well what are your thoughts, here is the spec published:

Crew: One
Wingspan: 9.00 m
Length: 14 m
Height: 5.10 m
Weight: Empty 6,321 kg; Normal take-off: 9,100 kg; Max take-off 12,700 kg; Max weapon payload 3,800 kg
Maximum Weapon Load: 3,600 kg
Maximum Speed: Mach 1.6
Range: Ferry range 3,000 km; Operational Radius 1,352 km
Service Ceiling: 16,500 m
Maximum Climb Rate: N/A
+G Limit: 8.5

I believe the fighter would be able to build up much more velocity than mach 1.6 (some reports say, it can produce speeds of upto mach 1.7 and 1.8)

My opinion on specifications given of FC-1:

Figures and specifications reported "by either western or Chinese
sources" has always been a conservative one when it comes to Chinese items while the perception
of western goods is always deemed as dramtically more advanced.

But, latest from these people, IMO, is no small potato.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Figures and specifications reported "by either western or Chinese sources" has always been a conservative one when it comes to Chinese items while the perception of western goods is always deemed as dramtically more advanced.

But, latest from these people, IMO, is no small potato.

Actually, I'd argue that western stats are understated. In fact, the majority of info that on new generation systems is never officially released in exactitude for obvious reasons.

The majority of info you see on FAS, Global Security is scraped data, with all its attendant weaknesses.

Janes (the bastion of exactitude) has been used a number of times by defence forces to release padded data. It's happened in both world wars, the 60,70,80's and I have no doubt still occurs. The most famous being the incident of the battleship stats. It helped to bugger up Germanies pre-wartime production.

The rule of thumb is to take anything you see as coming from a reliable source as immediately being suspect.

As for China. I stand by the fact that a country that copies technology does not have the same level of sophistication as a country that designs it from the outset. That is a different issue from a country that finesses an existing platform (such as the Su-27). Finessing is not the same as development. They have not been in the development curve for long, and as such their work has to be considered on that basis. BUT as a first time unit, it serves a purpose, much the same as the T-98 derivative. I think China is at least half a generation away from doing something that can be seen as unique and praiseworthy (from a creation perspective).

The west has made some duds, but they have historical knowledge, and legacy skills which assist in reconstructing etc...

The Chinese aircraft is noteworthy for a first attempt, but it's value will only be determined as part of a process where fighter pilot skill, aircraft robustness, weaps loadouts, management systems etc are tested in a hostile environment. China has NO dissimilar combat training, so it is vulnerable in the sense that no integrity or sanity checking has been done on systems in a completely isolated fashion. To use its nemesis India as an example, India has DACT in place, trains with Russian frontline units, has trained against US forces since 2002, has trained against UK fleet assets, trained with Singapore forces. China has had a goodwill "show and tell" tour by the French - which is certainly not DC training.

5-10 years time it will be a different response from me. Not now.

 

[mysterious]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

The problem with China has been that it hasnt interacted with the outer world properly. It is doing it now and we can already see how much influence China is already exercising. Of course everything needs time and likewise, China needs time to modernise its forces and learn everything that it needs to, to be able to stand up to a better foe! No one can shy away from the fact that Chinese are one of the most hardworking people on this planet and given their will and determination, I think a century's work can be achieved in a couple of decades! :smokingc:

 

[SABRE]

Are J-10 & JF-17 equipped with any Israeli technology.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Are J-10 & JF-17 equipped with any Israeli technology.

I think one could safely say that there is a high degree of Israeli input into the J-10.

China has been rather keen to take advantage of Israeli expertise in EW and missile development as well.

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

China has a new Generation Of Aeronautics industry propping up it's growing if you looks at all the litle Companies that are springing up!! Some specialize in Designs and some in other sub system i would say one day they may be able to compete with the rest of the world but what i always say Two minds are better then one! the West works together, China stands Alone!! but then agian chinese are a billion pop nation they should have diversity but the problem is that poverty gap keeps getting bigger and bigger amongst poor and favored rich (a common problem in Capitalistic nation) that would surely hinder progress at its grass roots!~! another reason for this may be Large scale management of the HUge human resource, Managing 1 billion people is not very easy there are bound to be loosers!! in Software we say if you can't Handle it break it up, so we do just that we break up the Task in sub components specialize each sub system create Cohesion and limit complications

 

[SABRE]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

When question both Pak & Chian ignore is that "can Jf-17 carry nuclear wapon or WMD?

To me it seems highly unlikely. China's major interest as we all know lies in J-10 not in JF-17. China would no doubt replace its mig 19 & 21 inventory with JF-17. Mig 19 & 21 are not capable of carrying WMD & are not supose to, this signifies that their replacement (JF-17) too would not be able to carry WMD. As J-10 would be replacing SU-27 (capable for carrying WMD)from its Sqdn Leader's position, it is highly possible of we can say it for certain that J-10 would be able to carry WMD.

So what do you people think of JF-17 carrying WMD?

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

I personally think WMD with pilot ie living componets in the Carrier is not a good Idea and i doubt pak would now Use and take a risk loosing Pilots just to fulfill the role of a guidance computers. Why use such crude methods when you have a sophisticated Short and medium, one and two stage separation BM Capability. i know there are advantages with pilot assisted delivery, but its not a morale booster for the pilot!!! and you know why. Would PAK Waste a Pilot and an AC Just to save cost on a guidance computer and BM that they make in Pak worth less then 50-100 million dollars, I doubt they will use any of there Air Craft asset for this crude Business since some of the Pakistani BM delivery systems are now in serial production, JF-17 even if it were capable of delivery would not be a choice of delivery its max mach spead is slow can get shot down by faster interceptors and can also get shot down by SAM system, its a defending/support and tech gap filler, AC with limited abilities to say the least. F-16 are faster more suited but i doubt Pak would use them instead of Shaheen 2, Pak's Long rage 2 stage Delivery system. it won't make any sense not to use Shaheen in the event of Nuke war, Think Sabre before you say such thing People are still stuck in the past Pak wanted to use F-16 in the past because it did not have delivery mechanisms in place, thats the reason why US embargoed the rest of the F-16 and now they are considering releasing new one becasue Pak will not sacrifice an AC and a Pilot worth alot more then a BM, and simply becasue an AC would have a higher chance of being intercepted and destroyed then a BM.

 

[SABRE]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

to some extent i can say u r right adsH but fighter jets are not suppose to carry WMD from one country to another. They r for defencive purpose. Supose if ,God forbid, Indian army crosses into Pak & occupies entire Sialkot region, our defence has been completely destroyed in East Punjab region & only way to remove Indian army is to airial bombing which will take lot of money. Ur last alternative is to Nuke them. Now will u use LArge scale Warhead like Ghuri & Shahee (Hatf) on ur own ground. These mossiles dont come cheep. Such situtation can only be handled through a Jet fighter which can carry Warhead size of football.

U cant waist million rupees Warhead on samll scale destruction u need cheap samll football sized warheads which can only be carried by Jets.

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

And hence Pak is makeing Plutonium Nukes now more compact and i think alot safer to handle. But I doubt Pak Army is so Daft that they would allow there Missiles to get captured and Ariel bombed those are hidden Systems and India would not dare to take pver an inch of the terotery becasue it can't determine that all the nukes have been destroyed or captured in one go specially looking at the Slugish movemets of teh INdian Army i doubt they can catch up with a Kid running on a streat(Joke No offence to my Indian friends) but the Fact is that India has to reform and is removing its military to Be more responsive restructuring to Enhace its effectiveness and Improveing traing to be more leathal and Upgradeing its hardware to be affective. but i doubt any country on earth can make sure that all Nuke targets have been neutralized in the first go becasue there is bound to be retaliatory measure!!, Aircrafts are not efficent they have limted manuverabilty they have a Living pilot and they have a max mach of 2 compare that with new INdian sams high manuvrability High mach probably at mach 4 essentially its expendiable relative to a AC with a Fully trained F-16 Pilot. there is no reason to send a F-16 with some of the best pilots if Shaheen can do the job and do it 2X better, Front line is not the Only place where Nuke assets are deployed Pak Capbility is of over 1500+km which give them an advantage to placeing there nukes anywhere in pak and still deploy it effectively against India.

Ok now lets consider if Pak placed all its defenses the Nukes on its Eastern border
India Intruded and tried to capture them they would first have to neutralize the Pak PAF Assets and then Neutralize the Armed Forces and then they would have to neutralize the Ground armored divisions defending the Missile.

 

[mysterious]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Saber my friend, Chinese may only be 'mad' to replace their J-11s with J-10s!! J-11s are Russian Su-27s and they are at par with or more superior to J-10s. I dont see them getting replaced at all. China's J-6 fleet is almost 1000 aircraft which is a burden on its airforce as they have become obselete (highlightened by the fact that Pakistan retired them last year). They need replacing majorly and I can say with a good gut feeling that they will be replaced by JF-17s (FC-1) no matter how much Chinese deny it right now, 'cuz I dont see them going for any other option to replace those oldies (J-6s). Secondly, your analysis of Ghauris and Shaheens being used on the Indian Army in the event of a major threat to Pakistan's soveriegnty is false because they are IRMBs and only intended for military/civilian targets deep inside Indian territory. The Ghaznavi and Abdali are BRBMs (battlefield range) and they are capable of unconventional warheads (and they dont cost as much as the Ghauri or the Shaheen missile) so they are most likely to be used. For adsh, no one knows where Pakistan 'actually' stores its nuke arsenal or the ballistic missiles (specially the Ghauris and Shaheens), they are all assumed stories made up by well known analysts to give some kind of info to others based on differing evidence. So, at best, they are predictions and I dont think the Indians would be relying too much on them. :smokingc:

 

[SABRE]

I m sorry adsh u still havent understood what i m trying to say (though i my self m bad in explaining things). any ways most of the things you say are correct to logic. I ve got this artical from some defence mag. in which the author (a pilot) explains why countries still need Jets to carry WMD. I ve misplaces the artical, i'll paste it on the link when I get hold of it so u can understand what I m trying to say here.

& mysterious, i m not saying that J-10 is going to replace SU-27 by retiring it, but by removing it from the lead of Sqdn leader's position. Chines need a Jet of their own which is better than SU-27, to which they have no restrictions on sales & manufacturing & are not bounded to any other country for that Jet. They want their Jets to lead their Airforce. If J-10 is not capable of replacing SU-27 than it certainly is the 1st step to remove SU-27 from the lead.
Why else would Chines test J-10 against SU-27 in a dog fight?

 

[SABRE]

& yes mysterious, atleast we both agree on 1 thing. China is going to replace its oldies with JF-17 no matter what they say

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Why else would Chines test J-10 against SU-27 in a dog fight?

Their principle military opponent uses russian aircraft... it's the closest thing they can do to undertake DACT.