Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
It looks like from all candidates, the France officials and manufacturers are trying their best more to get Indonesian orders than others, besides the Korean.
Indonesian Aero News
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
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Especially with Rafale deal. I don't see as much with Naval Groups on Scorpene and FTI. The Jane's sources seems shown that Naval Group already out of contention on Frigates, while TKMS and DSME increase their efforts in Submarine.
I know the Koreans still want to lobby and increase their effort for Indonesia to stay in KFX program. However for me, if Dasault got the deal, I don't see how Indonesia can still stay with Korean on KFX. This simply on the budget capabilities.
Dasault already on the campaign for their offering on Off Set deals, then it's up to Korean to shown what they can give to keep Indonesia on the project.
That's why I put prediction that KFX involvement will still be there , if they (MinDef) choose to go with refurbished F-16 and F-16V, as planned before. The way Rafale deals being offered is quite extensive, similar with Swedish/SAAB deals with Brazil/Embrear
I do still see that if Indonesia pull out from KFX, they'll will offer something for Koreans on defense program. With my suspicion of LCA/LIFT or Submarine.
I know the Koreans still want to lobby and increase their effort for Indonesia to stay in KFX program. However for me, if Dasault got the deal, I don't see how Indonesia can still stay with Korean on KFX. This simply on the budget capabilities.
Dasault already on the campaign for their offering on Off Set deals, then it's up to Korean to shown what they can give to keep Indonesia on the project.
That's why I put prediction that KFX involvement will still be there , if they (MinDef) choose to go with refurbished F-16 and F-16V, as planned before. The way Rafale deals being offered is quite extensive, similar with Swedish/SAAB deals with Brazil/Embrear
I do still see that if Indonesia pull out from KFX, they'll will offer something for Koreans on defense program. With my suspicion of LCA/LIFT or Submarine.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
With some reported strains within the FCAS, should France(Dassault) decide on to proceed their own path, perhaps a SK-France-Indonesia project is an option. The French requirement for a CATOBAR naval jet may be a bridge to far however.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
I don't think that South-Korea and France are waiting for an Indonesian participation in the FCAS-project, not only they can do it easily without Indonesia, but this whole messed-up story of Indonesian participation in the KF-X project will make people think twice to accept Indonesia as a partner.
Besides that the FCAS will be maybe in initial operational capability around 2035 at the earliest, and before that time the Hawks and oldest F-16s already need to be replaced.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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@John Fedup I'll look on different angle. If the French can't seal the deal with Euro Partners like German and Spain, why do you think they can make another partnership with non Euro Partners?
We know the story of how Rafale and Typhoon come out as French can't reach agreement with other Euro Partners. If FCAS partnership dissolve then it's already got precedent before.
I would agree. The French aren't great at sharing their toys and they are excitable at the best of times. Mind you they partnered with the Germans on the Transall which turned out ok, the Pommies for Concorde and the Sepecat Jaguar, and other euro countries for the NH90 and A400M. Although both of the latter do have significant issues that have to be dealt with and Germany is entirely enthused about either platform.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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The way I see in FCAS is French feel they should have upper hand due to their 'experience' on Fighters development. Despite German and Spanish involvement with Euro Typhoon, seems Dasault want them to be given more lead access. This also means they're the ones that control Fighters system access.
In Transall, French and German can be considered more on equal footing on Turboprop Transport development, so does with UK in Concorde and Sepecat Jaguar. Got impression that French fell they have the leads in Fighters technology compared to their Euro Partners. Thus they want to keep that.
This is also somehow related to the condition of KFX/IFX partnership. Somehow many Indonesian whether in Public and Political circles didn't understand why KAI can dictate what Tech access that DI will got under partnership.
Many Indonesian don't understand that It's not just the amount of share ownership, but also KAI and ROK have more capabilities and Tech know how on developing Fighters. Which make them want to control the access of their asset. Even some of the tech coming from the third parties, but KAI have more know how on integrating them.
The condition will be different if the partnership is for Turboprop development, where DI has more experience and tech know how relative with KAI.
As for FCAS, the question right now is German or Spanish tech know how in Fighters development really bellow French ? Seems it's the question that need to resolve for FCAS partnership to move ahead. All three Partners need to resolve the parity on tech know how that they can bring, to make them all agree on equal footing.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Both Germany and Spain are part of the EF2000-program, and Germany participated also with the Panavia Tornado. So they have both experience with jetfighterdesign, but not independently like Dassault-Breguet, BAe or Saab. And the CASA C101 is not really a jetfighter. So this is maybe the reason why France has the feeling it is above other countries, besides that the engines are also always own designed.
Such attitude can be felt like arrogance for other countries, specially if one country is too dominant with having too much demands. This can lead to disbanding and partly failure of a great program.
So if the Indonesian government wants to be equal with South-Korea, then they also have to pay 50% of all costs, and take 50% of the workload, like during development of the Airtech CN235.
But until know i see the unacceptable demands and the unwillingness to pay as a trick of the current administration. In 2024 the development of the KF-X will be almost finished, and any participation of Indonesia will be useless, and because of that rejected by South-Korea.
And then its the right moment to blame everything on the Koreans.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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Even if there's scenario of ROK willing to go 50:50 in development of KFX with Indonesia (which I don't see that happening since from beginning ROK only looking for Junior Partner, that's why Turkey decided to go alone and not joining), there also going to be difference on Tech know how.
SBY from beginning only want to give Indonesian Defense Industry chances to improve their learning curve on fighters development. So at this moment seems many 'Jokowow' including in the administration blame SBY for agreeing on less favorable condition on the deal.
That's utterly nonsense. From beginning it's already agreed that Indonesia involvement will be up to Blk 1 development. After that if Indonesia want to further develop IFX Blk1 separately, then Indonesia has to Invest on their own. Means Indonesia has to develop it's own system and software for next stages. However if Indonesia still want to follow ROK in further development stages, then has to be still in Junior Partner position. This includes understanding that this Blk1 and further development KFX/IFX IP is own by KAI.
So the choices from beginning is open for Indonesia to go alone separately after Blk 1. Basically it's open for Indonesia to invest on their own for further separate version. This's already been informed during the negotiations of Indonesia involvement in KFX at SBY era. That's why this renegotiations aim is really politically motivate by current administration just to blame SBY's agreement.
How Indonesia ask for more access on ROK Tech, when it's clear it's developed by ROK own resources. Even some Tech that being given by US also related to ROK F-35 deals. Is it fair for Indonesia to ask the same access for that Tech ? Off course not.
That's the problem with any partnership program. You have to understand your position from beginning whether it's as Junior Partner or Equal Partner. Again as Junior Partner, you are practically pay your dues to get it involves on other people project. Thus any access on tech development is own by Senior Partner. Basically Junior Partner (as I have mentioned before) only getting some 'licenses' from Senior Partner discretion.
How in any partnership deals that you as Junior Partner decided to ask for more Equal position, is beyond me. If ROK still want to give some during this 'renegotiations' it's clearly only on their discretion.
If the current administration don't find the partnership is in their liking, then they can cut loose, and go to develop own fighters program. Whether from scratch like ROK do with KFX, or buy license agreement from other vendors. Either way, there will be cost to pay for any choice that being taken. Nothing is free.
SBY from beginning only want to give Indonesian Defense Industry chances to improve their learning curve on fighters development. So at this moment seems many 'Jokowow' including in the administration blame SBY for agreeing on less favorable condition on the deal.
That's utterly nonsense. From beginning it's already agreed that Indonesia involvement will be up to Blk 1 development. After that if Indonesia want to further develop IFX Blk1 separately, then Indonesia has to Invest on their own. Means Indonesia has to develop it's own system and software for next stages. However if Indonesia still want to follow ROK in further development stages, then has to be still in Junior Partner position. This includes understanding that this Blk1 and further development KFX/IFX IP is own by KAI.
So the choices from beginning is open for Indonesia to go alone separately after Blk 1. Basically it's open for Indonesia to invest on their own for further separate version. This's already been informed during the negotiations of Indonesia involvement in KFX at SBY era. That's why this renegotiations aim is really politically motivate by current administration just to blame SBY's agreement.
How Indonesia ask for more access on ROK Tech, when it's clear it's developed by ROK own resources. Even some Tech that being given by US also related to ROK F-35 deals. Is it fair for Indonesia to ask the same access for that Tech ? Off course not.
That's the problem with any partnership program. You have to understand your position from beginning whether it's as Junior Partner or Equal Partner. Again as Junior Partner, you are practically pay your dues to get it involves on other people project. Thus any access on tech development is own by Senior Partner. Basically Junior Partner (as I have mentioned before) only getting some 'licenses' from Senior Partner discretion.
How in any partnership deals that you as Junior Partner decided to ask for more Equal position, is beyond me. If ROK still want to give some during this 'renegotiations' it's clearly only on their discretion.
If the current administration don't find the partnership is in their liking, then they can cut loose, and go to develop own fighters program. Whether from scratch like ROK do with KFX, or buy license agreement from other vendors. Either way, there will be cost to pay for any choice that being taken. Nothing is free.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Exactly!
Btw, in the KF-X thread you told us about the order of additional KT-1Bs, ive found that article.
Well hopefully we pay everything on time, and i also hope the pandemic will not slow everything down.
That means with the 3 extra ordered the total delivered will be 22? According other sources only 17 KT-1Bs are delivered. Quite confusing.
/QUOTE][
@Sandhi Yudha The correct total should be nineteen delivered. The other source probably misunderstood the numbers because only 17 KT-1B is currently in the Indonesian Air Force. The other two were lost in accidents. One in 2010 and the other one more recently in 2020. The additional 3 KT-1B that was ordered in 2018 should be arriving sometime this year.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Edit.
- One was crashed in 2010 bacause of an panicking army general during a joyflight.
- During the mid-air collision at the Langkawi Airshow in 2015 both aircrafts crashed.
- In December 2020 another one crashed.
That means that TNI-AU lost four KT-1Bs all together.
Well, the initial plan was for a total amount of orders of 20 KT-1Bs, spread over several batches. So it is possible that all 20 were delivered and the fleet at the moment is 16 (20-4).
On the other hand according to Flight International TNI-AU has only 13 in its fleet, with three on order, that also makes sense. Because from the 17 delivered, 4 are lost, and the three on order are the last part of the order of 20.
If im not wrong in 2001 TNI-AU had a total requirement of 20 KT-1B to replace to old worn out T-34C, but only ordered 7 because of the limited budget.
Later 5 more were ordered, with some years later again 5, bringing the total of delivered to 17.
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You're right. I've forgotten about that! The 2020 accident was a different one and did result in a total loss of aircraft (pilots were safe) so that means a total of four KT-1B lost.
I haven't heard of any KT-1B delivery recently. It's possible they were quietly delivered but usually TNI loves their ceremonies and press releases.
So I went to look further into the KT-1B and as far as I can tell all Indonesian language sources agree that TNI ordered twelve KT-1B in 2006 but doesn't seem to cover their delivery. Turns out the order wasn't flown in from South Korea but rather assembled in Indonesia. And the amount somehow changed from twelve to two batches of five (total = 10). They were assembled by PTDI in 2007 and 2012. So now we got all of the KT-1B accounted for.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
"Korsel mengirimkan beberapa unit pesawat KT-1B ditambah komponennya ke Indonesia. Pada 2003 TNI AU telah mendapat tujuh pesawat, selanjutnya pada 2007 memperoleh lima pesawat, dan pada 2012 mendapatkan lima pesawat," katanya.
Ah yes....exactly
7+5+5=17 KT-1Bs...
We have unraveled the KT-1B - mystery!
KT-1 trainer deal is a first for South Korea
Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI) has signed a $60 million contract with Indonesia for seven KT-1 basic trainers. The deal marks the first export of a South Korean developed aircraft.
web.archive.org
Sandhi Yudha
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The chief-of-staff of TNI-AU is quite busy these days with all the delegations from France and South-Korea. It looks like that these two countries investing more time and energy than Sweden or the US for example.
But as always, lets wait and see what happen the coming four years.
All photos are from TNI-AU.
But as always, lets wait and see what happen the coming four years.
All photos are from TNI-AU.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
The BKO Talisman ECM-pod has recently been tested on an Indonesian Su-27SK
The BKO Talisman is an ECM-pod developed and manufactured by "Defence Initiative" in Minsk ( Belarus ).
It seems to give protection in the frequency range of 4,0-18,0 Ghz.
More info at БКО «Талисман»
The BKO Talisman is an ECM-pod developed and manufactured by "Defence Initiative" in Minsk ( Belarus ).
It seems to give protection in the frequency range of 4,0-18,0 Ghz.
More info at БКО «Талисман»
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
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Another way to keep upgrade Flankers capabilities without risking CAATSA 
Getting compatibility from Belarus or Ukraine sources, can be solution for short term. However they will need to get into Russian sources somehow if they're going to keep maintain those Flankers for longer-term. That's will return on the question how long those Flankers will be maintained.
Getting compatibility from Belarus or Ukraine sources, can be solution for short term. However they will need to get into Russian sources somehow if they're going to keep maintain those Flankers for longer-term. That's will return on the question how long those Flankers will be maintained.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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The problem with CATSAA is open interpretation by US alone. Biden actually more hostile to Russia/Putin compared to Trump. Thus considering the development situation including what brewing in Ukraine, do you want to take risk on that ?
Our defense assets and Economics dependency are more tied to US and it's allies. CATSAA so far only related to Defense procurement. Yes, Trump seems give more leeway on CATSAA in the beginning for maintenance. However it's more directed to countries like India and Vietnam that has more portion of Russian Defense assets in their inventory. We are not.
Anyway, even Trump got stricter with CATSAA implementation later part of his term. Mostly also due to Democrats attack that he's too soft with Putin. Biden will certainly be more confrontative with Putin. Trump never say Putin as murderer, but Biden did.
Russia Erupts in Fury Over Biden’s Calling Putin a Killer (Published 2021)
The Kremlin described the U.S. president’s response to an interview question as “very bad,” and recalled its ambassador to “analyze what needs to be done” about the countries’ relations.
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