Indonesian Aero News

[Ananda]

Flankers Training in China

From Antara News with Google trasnlate:

Jakarta (ANTARA News) - The government of Indonesia and the Republic of China agreed to strengthen cooperation for the training of pilots jet fighter Sukhoi TNI Air Force.

Cooperation strengthening exercises, became a topic of discussion in honor of visiting Vice Chairman Central Military Commission of China (Central Commission of The People Liberation Army / PLA) Gen Guo Boxing Yusgiantoro to the Minister of Defense in Jakarta on Friday.

Defense Ministry spokesman Maj. Gen. Medhio I Wayan said, Indonesia has sent Sukhoinya train pilots in China in several stages.

"Already there are ten Air Force pilots who conduct simulation training in China in several stages," he said.

China is one of the largest operators Sukhoi fighter jets in addition to two pieces of state Soviet Union ie, Russia and Ukraine. Even now China has been appointed as one of the Sukhoi aircraft-producing countries.

Bamboo Curtain countries also have training centers such as the Sukhoi fighter aircraft with various variants such as SU-27 SU-30MK SK and used Army Air Force.

Some countries Sukhoi users are Indonesia, India, China, Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, Algeria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Germany, Peru and North Korea. (R018/A024

By coincidence this come not long after agreement between India and Malaysia for training Flankers pilot in India.
This make sense since Malaysian Flankers having more simmilarity with Indian ones, while TNI AU versions are more simmilar to Chinese ones.

Whether this will means possible used for Chinese Fighters by TNI AU still need to be seen. I doubt that Indonesia will be interested with Chinese versions of Flankers (J 11 B), due to considerations not burning the bridges with Russia, also TNI AU still reluctant to use Chinese Aircraft.

Still, there're voices in Parlements for TNI AU using J 10 to replace F 5 and F 16, due to simmilar engine with Flankers. This voices mostly comming from 'left' leaning parties, islamic parties, and parties that influences by old soeharto generals, which still harbour deep resentment with US.

 

[STURM]

This make sense since Malaysian Flankers having more simmilarity with Indian ones, while TNI AU versions are more simmilar to Chinese ones.

If I'm not mistaken, the TNI-AU's Flankers were made by KNAAPO, similiar to China's. I'm not sure if Irkut has aever sold anything to China. Apart from maybe fitting a Western IFF, VHF/UHF radios and TACAN which is standard, I'll be very interested to know what modifications were done to the TNI-AU's Flankers. I like the camo scheme the TNI-AU has adopted for its Flankers....

Off topic but can China legally export it's J11s?

 

[Ananda]

If I'm not mistaken, the TNI-AU's Flankers were made by KNAAPO, similiar to China's. I'm not sure if Irkut has aever sold anything to China. Apart from maybe fitting a Western IFF, VHF/UHF radios and TACAN which is standard, I'll be very interested to know what modifications were done to the TNI-AU's Flankers. I like the camo scheme the TNI-AU has adopted for its Flankers....

From media in here, TNI AU versions made by Irkut, but with many similarity in specs with Chinese SU 30 MKK. Frankly speaking, with only limited number so far being acquired by TNI AU, I don't think they already put many 'western' modifications. The original order for SU 30 KI at Soeharto era (before asian financial crisis in 98) supposedly have many western avionics (with French's SAGEM as main suppliers).

Off topic but can China legally export it's J11s?

Good Questions, I put the possibility of Chinese offer of J 11 since 'unconfirmed' sources within the Min-Def already hinted that Chinese (even still in hush-hush mode) told our min-def that J 11 B has so many Chinese system, that they feel offering them for export should not create 'copy right' issues with the Russian. Still since they (Chinese) also keep this issue (export possibilities of J 11) on low profille, show that they're still unwilling to create further rift with Russia oncopy right issue.

 

[tphuang]

From media in here, TNI AU versions made by Irkut, but with many similarity in specs with Chinese SU 30 MKK. Frankly speaking, with only limited number so far being acquired by TNI AU, I don't think they already put many 'western' modifications. The original order for SU 30 KI at Soeharto era (before asian financial crisis in 98) supposedly have many western avionics (with French's SAGEM as main suppliers).



Good Questions, I put the possibility of Chinese offer of J 11 since 'unconfirmed' sources within the Min-Def already hinted that Chinese (even still in hush-hush mode) told our min-def that J 11 B has so many Chinese system, that they feel offering them for export should not create 'copy right' issues with the Russian. Still since they (Chinese) also keep this issue (export possibilities of J 11) on low profille, show that they're still unwilling to create further rift with Russia oncopy right issue.

china is not exporting J-11B from what I know due to many reasons and making relations worse with Russia is just one of them.

They are actually officially offering J-10 to the world now, I guess.

 

[Ananda]

china is not exporting J-11B from what I know due to many reasons and making relations worse with Russia is just one of them.

They are actually officially offering J-10 to the world now, I guess.

True, that's the official offer also to our Min-Def in here. This also one of the reasons why some voices in our Parlements wants TNI AU to get J 10 to replace both F 5 and F 16 latter on.

@Sturm, you also right on TNI AU version build by Knappo. Just take a look on media sources in here. Seems the First Batch come from Irkut, while the Second Batch from Knappo.
TNI AU order's still in small batch, thus seems Rosoboroexport put TNI AU batch piggy bank on any larger export batch in order. I could be wrong though.

 

[STURM]

Frankly speaking, with only limited number so far being acquired by TNI AU, I don't think they already put many 'western' modifications. The original order for SU 30 KI at Soeharto era (before asian financial crisis in 98) supposedly have many western avionics (with French's SAGEM as main suppliers).

Well the up side is that they didn't have to fork out a tons and tons of cash for integration work, like what Malaysia had to do with it's MKMs. The TNI-AUs Flankers can still be described as a cost effective solution compared to buying a Western fighter. According to Dzirhan Mahadzir, the Russians were actually complaining that their profit margins were very low due to the large number of non-Russian gear specified by the RMAF. Ananda, have you heard anything from official sources or otherwise about whether the TNI-AU is happy so far with its Flankers? From a maintanence prespective, the lack of thrust vectors should make the TNI-AUs Flankers a easier to support and mantain than the MKMs.

 

[Ananda]

Ananda, have you heard anything from official sources or otherwise about whether the TNI-AU is happy so far with its Flankers? From a maintanence prespective, the lack of thrust vectors should make the TNI-AUs Flankers a easier to support and mantain than the MKMs.

So far, the only complain put by the Air Force related to the Flankers conditions was that the operational cost's much higher than the F 16 (nearly tripple per hour costs).
However they're so far quite happy with operational range capability and performances of the Flankers.

Early batch rumours having some problem, however seem's it's related with the spare parts procurements in which acquisitions practices was bit different with US made aircraft. Thus create some back log order on spare parts. However seems now it's been relative taking care off.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

16/09/2009 - 20:02
[increase] [decrease]
Wuih! TNI Pesan Meriam Penangkis Swiss

INILAH.COM, Jakarta - Pasukan Khas TNI Angkatan Udara telah memesan meriam Penangkis Serangan Udara (PSU) terbaru jenis Oerlikon Contraves 35 mm buatan Swiss. Alat ini untuk memaksimalkan pengamanan pangkalan udara.

"Senjata ini untuk menggantikan PSU Triple Gun buatan 1950 yang telah lama digunakan TNI Angkatan Udara dan sebagian sudah disisihkan secara bertahap sejak 1990," kata Komandan Korps Paskhas TNI AU Marsekal Pertama TNI Harry Budiono di Jakarta, Rabu (16/9).

Ia menambahkan, PSU Oerlikon Contraves 35 mm telah digunakan di 40 negara tersebar di Asia dan Eropa. "Jika Indonesia serius berniat membelinya dan telah tandatangan kontrak, maka mereka baru akan membuatnya. Jadi, nanti kita mendapat barang baru," ujar Harry.

Selain PSU dari Swiss, Paskhas TNI AU juga akan meneruskan pengadaan radar rudal antipesawat QW-3 buatan China. "Kontrak sudah ada di Departemen Pertahanan. Kita akan beli tiga unit dan akan ditempatkan di Madiun dan Jakarta," imbuhnya.

Harry mengatakan, pengadaan sejumlah peralatan itu merupakan bagian dari Program Pengembangan Kekuatan (Propangkuat) TNI AU 2005-2009 yang karena keterbatasan anggaran maka baru dilanjutkan prosesnya pada Probangkuat 2009-2014.

Whats the status of this acquisition?
Kata Wikipedia:

Paskhas juga tengah berupaya mendatangkan 4 baterai PSU jarak pendek berupa Oerlikon kaliber 35 mm untuk hanud titik model komposit yang sudah terintegrasi antara rudal, meriam, radar dan pos komando taktis. Senjata ini sudah menggunakan teknologi tercanggih dan telah digunakan oleh banyak negara Eropa. Menurut rencana, senjata PSU ini akan ditempatkan di 3 Lanud Utama TNI-AU. Salah satu kelebihan utama lainnya untuk PSU Oerlikon kaliber 35 mm ini adalah kemampuannya untuk dapat dimobilisasi dengan pesawat Hercules.

Cancelled?

 

[Ananda]

Whats the status of this acquisition?
Cancelled?

Lattest report did not mentioned any cancellation on Oerlikon purchase. Should be still on track.

 

[Ananda]

South Korean & Indonesian Joint Fighthers Will Commence Soon ?

From Kompas Newspaper with Google Translation

Jakarta, Kompas - This year, Indonesia is expected to sign cooperation agreements with South Korea for the manufacture of fighter aircraft. Thus, Indonesia is expected to not be dependent on other countries in providing combat aircraft.

It was announced by the Secretary General of the Ministry of Defence Marshal Herryanto Erris, Wednesday (2 / 6). "Most likely this year has been signed," said Erris. Agreement for feasibility study signed last year.

Ministry of Defense receives the results of a feasibility study in July 2009. In the study mentioned, Indonesia is eligible to be partners on joint fighthers aircraft project. Specifications KFX fighter with a code is approximately located on the F-16, but under specification F-35.

According to Erris, the move represents an advance because not many countries that can make a fighter plane. Having a fighter plane factory, Indonesia will not rely anymore to other countries.

According to Erris, commitment issues and a detailed agreement being discussed. However, there is no noticeable difference. Is currently composed of semantically agreement between both parties. Erris can not specify some of the things stated in that agreement, including what will be obtained by Indonesia and what must be provided. "Obviously, we have PT Dirgantara Indonesia and experts," said Erris.

Needs of the proposed cost around 8 billion dollars the United States with a term of employment until the year 2020. In the year 2020 is expected to be put up five prototypes. Of the total budget, Indonesia is expected to bear 20 per cent. However, Erris said, there is no agreement about such financial.

This KFX according to South Korean sources was still under the discussion within South Korean MDF on final specifications from an advance versions of T/A-50 Golden Eagle or more larger derivatives.

This agreement above if being realise seems will put Indonesia as Junior Partner in KFX, somewhat in simmilarity with Pakistan on Chinese design JF-17.

If this agreement hold, sources from Air Forces stated the projected new fighthers (KFX) will aimed to replace minimum 4 sq of F-16, F-5, and Hawk 100/200. In the mean time stop gap of second hand F-16 or refurbishment of existing F-5 will be considered. Some unconfirmed sources even suggest that potential getting second hand F 5 from South Korea also under considerations for stop gap measures if KFX deal being commences.

Other news also From Kompas:

1. No final deal on replacements of OV-10 yet. Super Tucano still the Air Forces prefered, however MDF still considering. Other sources explore this due to thinking from Ministry of Defense for replacing Hawk Mk 53 and OV-10 with same type of Aircraft. Personally I will rejoices if Super Tucano deal was terminated . Under current TNI-AU conditions, no place for specialised COIN, and also this in line with the mode to reduces/simplfied the TNI-AU aircraft types for better maintanances logistics.
2. Another batch of Flankers expected to come on September this year. TNI-AU and MDF seems committed on Flankers for heavy fighthers sollutions.

 

[Ananda]

Super Tucano Still Not a Done Deal

From Flight International:

Indonesia's defence minister is hoping to increase the country's defence budget over the next four years, paving the way for it to order utility and attack helicopters, fixed-wing transport aircraft, light-attack aircraft and jet fighters.

The defence budget accounts for 0.7-0.8% of Indonesia's gross domestic product, but the plan is to increase it over the coming years to reach 1.2-1.5% of GDP in 2014, says defence minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro.

Indonesia avoided last year's global recession and its economy has been growing strongly this year, he says, adding that this makes the purchase of new equipment more likely.

"We hope to be able to provide new helicopters to the army," says Yusgiantoro, who confirms that the service wants to buy utility and attack examples.

He wants to ensure that the attack helicopters can also be used for other purposes, such as transport, rather than be solely for combat.

Indonesia's air force, meanwhile, has been working on a deal to buy eight Embraer EMB-314 Super Tucano light attack aircraft. But Yusgiantoro says it will take a long time for any deal to be finalised, because the proposed procurement has yet to be referred to defence force headquarters. It would also later need to be referred to the defence ministry for approval.

Yusgiantoro says the Korea Aerospace Industries KT-1 is still in the competition. This type is already in the air force's fleet as a trainer aircraft.
In the transport sector, the air force largely relies on Lockheed Martin C-130s and Indonesian Aerospace CN-235s and C-212s.

Yusgiantoro says the government wants to buy more transports for the air force, because these can help with disaster relief duties. Indonesia in recent years has been struck by a number of devastating earthquakes, which has led the government to call on the air force to assist.

Yusgiantoro confirms that the country plans to order more fighter aircraft, but declines to elaborate. Jakarta has within the last few years ordered Sukhoi Su-27/30 fighters from Russia. Three of these remain on order, with deliveries expected later this year.

I've nothing against Super Tucano. However with TNI AU conditions, reducing the number of Aircraft Types should be maintain as priority. That's why I can't help my self to fell a little bit on this news.
Again to become more effective Air Force, commonality in the Aircraft types and logistics should be the main target.

Attack helicopters that can be used as transport....well more MI 35 or MI 17V seems will come. Hopefully with enough MI 35 in hand, the Min-Def can hold TNI AU brass ambitions to still have COIN sq.

 

[Ananda]

Can Indonesia Buy F 16 ??

From Jakarta Post:

Indonesia has told the US it wants to buy billions of dollars of American-made military aircraft, in hopes that a US-embargo on military sales to the country may soon be lifted, a Defense Ministry spokesman says.

“During a bilateral meeting, the Indonesian government expressed its interest to purchase F-16 and C-130H Hercules [cargo] aircraft to complete its squadrons,” Defense Ministry spokesman I Wayan Midhio told The Jakarta Post on Wednesday.

Indonesian Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro and US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates discussed the potential sale during the Shangri-La defense dialogue in Singapore last month, Wayan said.

The US welcomed Indonesia’s proposal to buy more US-made military equipment, he added.

The US also pledged US$15.7 million to Indonesia in 2010 and $20 million in 2011 under the aegis of capacity-building programs to help “modernize” the Indonesian Military (TNI), Wayan said.

(The Jakarta Post)

According to the sources in here, 90% of the embargo has been lifted, but US still hold 'banned' on selling to Indonesia 'lethal' technology.

This's quite confusing since at the same time US Airforces contacts also offering F 16 (whether second hand but with MLU upgarde or new F 16 Block 52) to TNI AU.
According to local sources, Indoensia will not have problem to buy C-130, Electronics, sensors, however still going to have problem acquairing 'lethal' equipments.

Perhaps this one of the reasons why the procurements of additional Flankers was being hold or draging for a whille. Perhaps the Airforce still want to find definitive answeres from US whether they can get F 16 to relpaced the aging F 5 and got more advances MLU kit from the Locheed for upgrading existing F 16.

 

[T.C.P]

I am wondering what will happen to their Flankers if Indonesia once again turns all pro America. I expected them to purchase more su-30s to complete 2 squadrons, but after this news I doubt that that will happen. Pity, because I thought that the SU-30 would be better than any Falcons( except perhaps for the Block 60 or above)
for the Indonesian air force.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

It should be stupid to sell the Sukhois and become once again completely dependent from the US.
Even if we are allowed to buy for billions brand new F16 block 50/52 but without BVR missiles they are useless and a waste of money.

I think its better to replace the F5s with the T-50.

 

[Ananda]

I am wondering what will happen to their Flankers if Indonesia once again turns all pro America. I expected them to purchase more su-30s to complete 2 squadrons, but after this news I doubt that that will happen. Pity, because I thought that the SU-30 would be better than any Falcons( except perhaps for the Block 60 or above)
for the Indonesian air force.

The Questions now is not whether TNI AU will move away from flankers, but how much flankers sq they will have. At present they have 1 uncompleted sq with 5 SU 30 and 5 SU 27 (3 will be delivered this year if on schedulled). Sources in here says that another 6 will be the target for next batch, thus will complate 1 full sq of 16 flankers (with 8 SU 30 and 8 SU 27).

The problem with flankers for TNI AU is the high operating costs. From what I heard, they have budget to get 2 Flankers sq untill 2014, but it will costs on the other fleet maintanances. In sense at best 1 sq of flankers will cost them to operate as same of 2 sq of F 16. The acquisition costs can be simmilar (for SU 27/30 SK2 vs F 16 Block 52), but life time maintanances cost of the Flankers is the problem.
I Don't think TNI AU will want to come back to the era where all of their Fighters was US or Western made. Maintaining Flankers will be a 'politically' supported move. Again it's the matter of how much flankers they will try to acquiare, if again they can get access to new F 16.

 

[T.C.P]

The Questions now is not whether TNI AU will move away from flankers, but how much flankers sq they will have. At present they have 1 uncompleted sq with 5 SU 30 and 5 SU 27 (3 will be delivered this year if on schedulled). Sources in here says that another 6 will be the target for next batch, thus will complate 1 full sq of 16 flankers (with 8 SU 30 and 8 SU 27).

The problem with flankers for TNI AU is the high operating costs. From what I heard, they have budget to get 2 Flankers sq untill 2014, but it will costs on the other fleet maintanances. In sense at best 1 sq of flankers will cost them to operate as same of 2 sq of F 16. The acquisition costs can be simmilar (for SU 27/30 SK2 vs F 16 Block 52), but life time maintanances cost of the Flankers is the problem.
I Don't think TNI AU will want to come back to the era where all of their Fighters was US or Western made. Maintaining Flankers will be a 'politically' supported move. Again it's the matter of how much flankers they will try to acquiare, if again they can get access to new F 16.

Hey Ananda I was just thinking with 2 sq of Flankers does the Indonesian Air force require F-16s, if maintenance cost is the problem, then cant they sell their current F-16s to reduce costs. Also I read that the def minister wants to purchase surplus F-16s in the U.S.A.F and if that is what he is after it means F-16 Block30or 40 I doubt the U.S has many surplus Block52s. In that case wont the Flankers remain a better option?

 

[Ananda]

Hey Ananda I was just thinking with 2 sq of Flankers does the Indonesian Air force require F-16s, if maintenance cost is the problem, then cant they sell their current F-16s to reduce costs. Also I read that the def minister wants to purchase surplus F-16s in the U.S.A.F and if that is what he is after it means F-16 Block30or 40 I doubt the U.S has many surplus Block52s. In that case wont the Flankers remain a better option?

Yes I agree that Flankers for Indonesian conditions provide better alternative. They provide longger range and the Russian not like the US will not shy on selling their lattest Flankers weaponery as long as we got money to pay them. Even if we got aditional F 16, just like Sandy Yudha said, it's doubtfull that the US will sell their lattest BVR Missiles to us.

However TNI AU already have twice bad experiences when rellying on singgle big suppliers for their fleet. In the late 60's after Soeharto topple Soekarno, TNI AU Russian made assets from TU 16, IL 28, Mig 21, 19, 17 ware grounded. The only eastern blocks asset that lasted until early 80's was checkoslovakians L 29. Same by end 90's where most western made TNI AU asset paractically 80% grounded (especially the US Made ones). Even when the Brits lift their embargoes in the early this decade, TNI AU still have problem operationg ther Hawk 100/200 due some of the equipments were US origins.

That's why TNI AU (and the wholle) miltary did not want to relly to one big suppliers even that was smart strategy in term of life time operating and maintanance costs. The obvious way offcourse try sources your asset internally, but it will be much long time before DI/Iae have the abbility to build fighters from their current small transport capacity based.

That's the dillema, Flankers was better suit for us, but were costly to maintain. F-16 was cheaper to maintain, but we will not get the best sollutions of F 16 that the US will allow. The game now is to find the right balance and size of Flankers and F 16 to maintain. That's what the TNI AU and Mindef seems try to get.

BTW; I think for surplus F 16 that the US offered was Batch 25 or Batch 30 with MLU (well i think it's still better than our Block 15 even with MLU), whille for Block 52 the US offered not the surpluses but new build ones. That's at least what i've been read from Air Force sources on local media.
Besides talking with some TNI AU fighters guys, they're anthusiastic and exited with Flankers but their love's still with F 16

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

RI wants to buy US fighters, cargo jets

Mustaqim Adamrah, The Jakarta Post, Jakarta | Thu, 07/01/2010 8:09 AM | Headlines

Indonesia told the US it wants to buy billions of dollars of American-made military aircraft, in hopes that a US-embargo on military sales to the country may soon be lifted, a Defense Ministry spokesman says.

“During a bilateral meeting, the Indonesian government expressed its interest to purchase F-16 and C-130H Hercules [cargo] aircraft to complete its squadrons,” Defense Ministry spokesman I Wayan Midhio said on Wednesday.

Indonesian Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro and US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates discussed the potential sale during the Shangri-La defense dialogue in Singapore last month, Wayan said.

The US welcomed Indonesia’s proposal to buy more US-made military equipment, he added.

The US also pledged US$15.7 million to Indonesia in 2010 and $20 million in 2011 under the aegis of capacity-building programs to help “modernize” the Indonesian Military (TNI), Wayan said.

Military aid will be in the form of training and education to be carried out in both Indonesia and the US, he added. The US offered to sell surplus fighter jets at steeply-discounted prices to persuade Indonesia to buy, Wayan said.

Indonesia currently has only four operational jet fighters — less than a single squadron — University of Indonesia’s military expert Andi Widjajanto said. Each squadron should have eight to 12 planes depending on operational, maintenance and training plans.

The Air Force has two operational commands in the country’s east and west. Each command has two bases, which in turn require eight fighter squadrons per base, he said.

A fifth-generation F-16 jet fighter costs between $120 million and $140 million, without munitions. A fourth-generation F-16 Falcon fighter costs between $88 million and $90 million, without munitions, Andi said.

There is a surplus of F-16s on the global arms market due to production overruns by US defense contractor manufacturer Lockheed Martin. The company’s capacity still reflects Cold War production levels, Andi added.

The US is also replacing its squadrons of F-16 with newer F-22 Raptors and F-35 Lightnings, he said. Both oversupply and change in preference have lowered prices for F-16s in the global market, he said.

It is unlikely that the country can purchase F-16s from the US because an embargo on arms sales to Indonesia is still in effect, Andi said.

“Almost 90 percent of the embargo has been lifted since 2006, but lethal weapons sales have not been lifted and I think there is no sign that the US will do so,” he said.

“Therefore, purchasing a Hercules [cargo aircraft] may not be a problem, but purchasing a F-16 plane can be.”

The US Congress imposed the military embargo over a decade ago citing human rights violations committed by the Indonesian Army’s Special Forces (Kopassus) in West Papua and Timor Leste (then East Timor).

However a recently-signed bilateral defense framework arrangement allows Indonesia to procure military equipment from the US, as previously reported, though the US stated it still expects Kopassus to respect human rights.

source http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2...argo-jets.html

From Where will we get such amount of money?
We even have not enough money for the Project 636 subs, more CN235s or even for the required budget for the maintenance of all weaponsystems.
Worldbank, IMF?

 

[T.C.P]

From Where will we get such amount of money?
We even have not enough money for the Project 636 subs, more CN235s or even for the required budget for the maintenance of all weaponsystems.
Worldbank, IMF?

I am pretty sure the World bank and the IMF does not provide money for arms procurement.The money will have to come from the Govt. coffers.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Indonesia currently has only four operational jet fighters — less than a single squadron — University of Indonesia’s military expert Andi Widjajanto said.
Each command has two bases, which in turn require eight fighter squadrons per base, he said.

Or Andi Widjajanto is an idiot or the wartawan makes some dumb mistakes...