I just read about the recent decission to purchase the Tucano in the new AFM (hence my reason for visiting this topic) and I thought that the Tucano at least is a nice replacement for the OV-10.
On the F-16 Tucano debate I want to add some comments:
1: Yes purchasing and operating a sqn of F-16 is significantly more expensive than operating Tucano's. Think about maintenance, spares, additional airbase infrastructure and I think (although I'm not an expert) that training an F-16 pilot is markebly more expensive than a Tucano pilot.
2: The way you can deploy a Tucano is very different than is an F-16. As mentioned above, tucano's can land on much more airfields then F-16's can, Since Indonesia is a pretty big country that is a big plus and the support footprint must be much smaller and therefore much easyer to take with you on detachments.
3: Ofcoarse the Tucano does not have the combat potential the F-16 has, but it's not useless. It carries bombs, rockets and advanced sensors (if they buy those ofcoarse). And it performs better at lower speeds which means that it's better for recon and patrol. Also the Tucano is not a COIN aircraft per se, It's also a trainer aircraft. Couldn't it be used as such by Indonesia?
4: The Dutch MLU's are by no means up to par to the Aussies superbugs or much of the other hardware country's in the region are purchasing (Su-30MKM etc.). Also why would you go buying 20yr old crap when the main supplier of parts and weaponry (i.e. the US) is a spotty one at best. The US doesnt have a good repore with Indonesia when it comes to defense support, just look at all the country's that avoid the US as a supplier because they have had bad experiences with embargo's. The Russians (or the French or Chinese for that matter) have much less regard for such things, maybe that's morally wrong but a nice thing nonetheless if you have an embargo on your ass.
5.1: A point was made of the TNI AU's diverse inventory, which is a totally valid and very relevant point. Not only is it cheaper to operate a less diverse fleet, it would also present oppertunities for local industries for more stable income (i.e. less diverse but more profitable contracts?) and more barter room voor both TOT and the right(?) to have more input in the systems of a particular platform.
Arms purchases are also an important way of asserting a country's political conontation. So to me the question is not what toy do I want but who are my friends and how am I goin to show that? I dont know the political situation of Indonesia very well, but for the sake of arguments, lets assume that dealing with the US could be a costly mistake (because one transgression internally and there's another embargo), then it is logical that the TNI AU has a great platform to expand on and thats the Su-30. If the airforce has to buy jets instead why not go that way, the SU has a much greater range (and thats what I would want if I had to defend a large area with limited assets) a much large payload and two engines. With Indonesia being an island nation the security of a twin engined platform sounds reassuring to me.
I also think you could replace all the F-16, and Hawks with Su-30 and Tucano's and dont even bother with the Yak-130's. It would also seem (to me at least) that you have commonality with a lot of country's in the region, and those would then become potential cusomers(?).
5.2: Then again if you go the other way (the US way), I still wouldn't go for second hand raggety-ass F-16's (that we the Dutch think wont last past 2018 or so). But with maybe the Hornet, it would give you commonality with the Aussie's which would be your friend if the US is, and also has two engines plus maintenance is going to be cheaper on the long run seeing the USN is still ordering superbugs, and the us is not buying any more F-16's (I think), so other than the UAE and maaaaaaaybe India no one is going to require significant spare parts let alone do some development on it. What would make more sense to me (in this scenario) is to go european. There are some nice options there, first of all the rafale/typhoon, I know very expensive and probably not feasible but with some goodwill and the decomissioning of F-16's and Hawks and not purchasing Yak's it wouls seem a posibility at least. A remote one though but the hawks where purchased from the UK, so why not some typhoons, and I believe the UK also uses Tucano's so thats another strong link to be used for support (maybe TOT?). More realisting would be old mirage 2000's with some nice mileage left, if things go alright there are some pretty nice UAE ones comming on the market. And there are bound to be some nice ones left in the old French cold war stocks.
Buying more old F-16's just doesn't seem logical to me, wouldn't it be nice to have a consolidated fleet of shiny mirages with sexy sensors?
anyway grtz Toprob (yeah made a typo with my nickname)
(Edit)
point 5.2: Another thing could be that the Chinese start causing trouble. I dont believe there are territorial disputes with Indonesia, but as we say in Holland "wat niet is kan nog komen" (meaning you never know). It seems unlikely to me, but if China doesnt like you (and I dont know if that's the case) anything could happen... Just look at the problems the ROC had with its procurements.
Segway or maybe point 5.3: Could they buy Chinese or Pakistani those JF-17's seem nice, and you could operate a lot with limited resources.
And I have a question for the experts: I read somewhere, I think in a Thai AF thread, that their diverse inventory was because purchase with a new supplier secured bigger bribes to the bureaucrat who orders. And that corruption was one of the reasons they had an overly diverse airforce that was very expensive to maintain.
Is this a problem in Indonesia too?
On the F-16 Tucano debate I want to add some comments:
1: Yes purchasing and operating a sqn of F-16 is significantly more expensive than operating Tucano's. Think about maintenance, spares, additional airbase infrastructure and I think (although I'm not an expert) that training an F-16 pilot is markebly more expensive than a Tucano pilot.
2: The way you can deploy a Tucano is very different than is an F-16. As mentioned above, tucano's can land on much more airfields then F-16's can, Since Indonesia is a pretty big country that is a big plus and the support footprint must be much smaller and therefore much easyer to take with you on detachments.
3: Ofcoarse the Tucano does not have the combat potential the F-16 has, but it's not useless. It carries bombs, rockets and advanced sensors (if they buy those ofcoarse). And it performs better at lower speeds which means that it's better for recon and patrol. Also the Tucano is not a COIN aircraft per se, It's also a trainer aircraft. Couldn't it be used as such by Indonesia?
4: The Dutch MLU's are by no means up to par to the Aussies superbugs or much of the other hardware country's in the region are purchasing (Su-30MKM etc.). Also why would you go buying 20yr old crap when the main supplier of parts and weaponry (i.e. the US) is a spotty one at best. The US doesnt have a good repore with Indonesia when it comes to defense support, just look at all the country's that avoid the US as a supplier because they have had bad experiences with embargo's. The Russians (or the French or Chinese for that matter) have much less regard for such things, maybe that's morally wrong but a nice thing nonetheless if you have an embargo on your ass.
5.1: A point was made of the TNI AU's diverse inventory, which is a totally valid and very relevant point. Not only is it cheaper to operate a less diverse fleet, it would also present oppertunities for local industries for more stable income (i.e. less diverse but more profitable contracts?) and more barter room voor both TOT and the right(?) to have more input in the systems of a particular platform.
Arms purchases are also an important way of asserting a country's political conontation. So to me the question is not what toy do I want but who are my friends and how am I goin to show that? I dont know the political situation of Indonesia very well, but for the sake of arguments, lets assume that dealing with the US could be a costly mistake (because one transgression internally and there's another embargo), then it is logical that the TNI AU has a great platform to expand on and thats the Su-30. If the airforce has to buy jets instead why not go that way, the SU has a much greater range (and thats what I would want if I had to defend a large area with limited assets) a much large payload and two engines. With Indonesia being an island nation the security of a twin engined platform sounds reassuring to me.
I also think you could replace all the F-16, and Hawks with Su-30 and Tucano's and dont even bother with the Yak-130's. It would also seem (to me at least) that you have commonality with a lot of country's in the region, and those would then become potential cusomers(?).
5.2: Then again if you go the other way (the US way), I still wouldn't go for second hand raggety-ass F-16's (that we the Dutch think wont last past 2018 or so). But with maybe the Hornet, it would give you commonality with the Aussie's which would be your friend if the US is, and also has two engines plus maintenance is going to be cheaper on the long run seeing the USN is still ordering superbugs, and the us is not buying any more F-16's (I think), so other than the UAE and maaaaaaaybe India no one is going to require significant spare parts let alone do some development on it. What would make more sense to me (in this scenario) is to go european. There are some nice options there, first of all the rafale/typhoon, I know very expensive and probably not feasible but with some goodwill and the decomissioning of F-16's and Hawks and not purchasing Yak's it wouls seem a posibility at least. A remote one though but the hawks where purchased from the UK, so why not some typhoons, and I believe the UK also uses Tucano's so thats another strong link to be used for support (maybe TOT?). More realisting would be old mirage 2000's with some nice mileage left, if things go alright there are some pretty nice UAE ones comming on the market. And there are bound to be some nice ones left in the old French cold war stocks.
Buying more old F-16's just doesn't seem logical to me, wouldn't it be nice to have a consolidated fleet of shiny mirages with sexy sensors?
anyway grtz Toprob (yeah made a typo with my nickname)
(Edit)
point 5.2: Another thing could be that the Chinese start causing trouble. I dont believe there are territorial disputes with Indonesia, but as we say in Holland "wat niet is kan nog komen" (meaning you never know). It seems unlikely to me, but if China doesnt like you (and I dont know if that's the case) anything could happen... Just look at the problems the ROC had with its procurements.
Segway or maybe point 5.3: Could they buy Chinese or Pakistani those JF-17's seem nice, and you could operate a lot with limited resources.
And I have a question for the experts: I read somewhere, I think in a Thai AF thread, that their diverse inventory was because purchase with a new supplier secured bigger bribes to the bureaucrat who orders. And that corruption was one of the reasons they had an overly diverse airforce that was very expensive to maintain.
Is this a problem in Indonesia too?
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