Indonesian Aero News

Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Italian defence manufacturer Leonardo signed on 27 January a long-awaited Letter of Award for the sale of training aircraft to the Indonesian Air Force, according to documents consulted by Intelligence Online.
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Seems the first use of diverted F-15EX procurement budget/credit line is for M346.

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Seems Turkiye, Italy and French that can be benefitted from cancellation of F-15EX. I always say from several years ago. If both Rafale and F-15EX being procure something has to give. Thus comsidering budget reality and the need to finance other defense projects, camcellation of F-15EX procurement is something that logical.
 
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Arji

Active Member
I am curious what will we choose to balance US trade in exchange for F-15EX. I'm working in the field related to aircraft MRO and there was discussion of purchasing Boeing aircraft with Danantara money last year, but that seems to have disappeared nowadays. It seems GIA is not really interested in ordering new aircraft from both manufacturer as they have to wait a long time due to the backlog, plus word is they'll have additional asset from Pelita Air soon, so I'm somewhat skeptical on ordering new aircraft from Boeing.

My hope is that they haven't given up on the E-7, but one thing for sure, Prabowo so far have been pretty subservient to the Trump admin, so I think balancing US trade with import is an important policy to him.
 
Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Singapore Airshow is from 3 to 8 February, IPTN participates with having a stand, but of course they only bring aircraft scale models of the CN235 and N219.


Also Jupiter Aerobatic Team is in Singapore. Hopefully the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace Exhibition 2015 mistake will not be repeated and they will return all safely home.


Two more Eurocopter EC725 medium transporthelicopters are on their way to Indonesia. After reassembling, customizing and testing in Bandung, these 2 EC725s will be added to the 14 already in the fleet of TNI-AU.



Btw, in 2024 four new EC-145 training/SAR helicopters were ordered. Any more information about the costs, package and delivery period?
https://www.aviation24.be/manufactu...-for-training-and-search-and-rescue-missions/
Indonesian Air Force orders four Airbus H145 helicopters
 
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Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
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Blok 20, now I'm confuse, as it mean those aircraft will be the Hawk 200 replacement as LCA. Previously it is talk M346 will be LIFT and T-50i will be upgrade to FA-50 as LCA.

Seems this UAE base EES behave as financier. In short the credit line come from UAE fund. This also shown how ROK continue being sideline on new projects.
 
Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Ananda said:
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Blok 20, now I'm confuse, as it mean those aircraft will be the Hawk 200 replacement as LCA. Previously it is talk M346 will be LIFT and T-50i will be upgrade to FA-50 as LCA.

Seems this UAE base EES behave as financier. In short the credit line come from UAE fund. This also shown how ROK continue being sideline on new projects.
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Really sad news.
I totally don't understand the choice for the M346 if Indonesia already have the T-50.

Here the official press release.
Leonardo, PT ESystem Solutions and the Ministry of Defence Of the Republic of Indonesia sign M-346 F AIRCRAFT Letter of Intent to meet Indonesian Air Force training and combat requirements
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Let's wait for Pilatus PC-24, as the EES source talk about both M346 and PC-24. Like I said before Italy, Turkey and French seems going to be the winner, even tough Frenchie salesman continue b**ching on Turkey assets, as it is taking share of French sales. Leonardo also already have agreement with Roketsan to integrate their missiles to Leonardo system.

Increasing talk and rumours for PPA and Istif Frigates increase from 2 to 4, thus match the numbers of FMP/Arrowhead 140 of 4, on each type of Frigate. Also even tough DSME 209-1400 refurbishment from what I heard already improve those submarines readiness, the batch 2 for 209-1400 increasingly shown sign will not be taken and MinDef being talk in negotiation with Leonardo for 2 submarine as alternative (instead 3 in current Batch 2).

All this will be using part of budget that being save from F-15EX acquisition. However I strongly believe US made system will come to procurement agenda. However increasingly will not be Fighters. Indonesia already talk want to get Maritime Surveilance and ISTAR assets from US. More helicopters also have good probability.

Fighters so far that in serious talk are additional Rafale. While Su-35E to replace all Su-27 and Su-30 will be upgrade to the latest Mk2 standard. Potentially make 2 SQ of 8-10 Su-30Mk2 and Su-35E each. Again the Flankers from what I heard still create headache to Finance People to find Financing partner that willing to face CAATSA hurdles. So don't be surprises if in the end more Rafale being source.

KF-21 or J-10CE still toss up between both of them. While KAAN is long term project that going to be pursue for next decade. Thus it is also means not a done deal if next election result on different Government.


SolarisKenzo said:
The M-346 is the best training ecosystem in the world right now.
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The deal is for Block 20, thus it is likely being Hawk 200 replacement as LCA. Leonardo press statement already indicate that.

Thus more and more shown KAI assets will stay as trainer whether KT-1B as basic trainer and T/A-50i as LIFT.
 
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tonnyc

Well-Known Member
SolarisKenzo said:
The M-346 is the best training ecosystem in the world right now.

Of course other platforms have better "performances" in terms of speed and/or payload: but a trainer's first role is training, not fighting.

I assume it's also a move to join the IFTS, probably.

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Yeah, and the F-22 is the best fighter in the world right now. And we don't need either. We just need good enough. And good enough includes being affordable. And being affordable means not increasing the logistical cost by having yet another type of jets.

Seriously, if they want to shift all the T-50 into combat roles and want a pure trainer, just get more Super Tucano and tell Embraer to hold the weapons and sensors.
 
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Meriv90

Active Member
Not exactly, a good trainer means less hours on the fighter that means a saving.

For me it isn't if the M346 is worth it but why the T-50 isn't worth it or at a similar level.

It has no sense unless a fallout of Korean side.

I mean the IFTS program has been chosen by Qatar,Japan,Germany,Singapore,Austria,Canada,UK and the Saudi, so top of the game. But hard to believe the Koreans would be so behind to the point of choosing a second trainer.
 
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koxinga

Well-Known Member
Meriv90 said:
It has no sense unless a fallout of Korean side.
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It makes perfect sense if you suspend common sense. :)

The basic assumption you and @SolarisKenzo is making is the selection is due to the M-346 being better in some technical capabilities or training area or the Korean system or plane is bad/inferior. E.g it is due to absolute merits.

Whether this is true or not, or has any bearing to Indonesia's choice is debatable.
 
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Meriv90

Active Member
Sorry I didn't communicate successfully,

I meant exactly what you wrote.

The potential gap between M346 and T-50 cannot be IMHO that wide to justify a second trainer unless non technical elements come in play.


Or there is a complete failure somewhere with the T-50.
 
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SolarisKenzo

Well-Known Member
What we are saying is that the M-346 is the best trainer.
I have no idea and honestly don't know what is Indonesia's requirement, I'm just saying that if they wanted a trainer the m-346 is the best one.

If you don't want a trainer but more F-50 then just order more F-50, right?

I'm not really sure where this is going...And honestly don't care.
 
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koxinga

Well-Known Member
SolarisKenzo said:
What we are saying is that the M-346 is the best trainer.
I have no idea and honestly don't know what is Indonesia's requirement, I'm just saying that if they wanted a trainer the m-346 is the best one.

If you don't want a trainer but more F-50 then just order more F-50, right?

I'm not really sure where this is going...And honestly don't care.
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Because the presumption being made here is any choice made has to be either logical (buy more T-50), cost effective or best on technical merits (buy M346).

None of that has to be reason. It could well be because Leonardo gave the best "package" in terms of financing, or political expediency, which is common in this part of the world, with the exception of Singapore.
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
common wisdom within Indonesia’s defence community still applies: no matter how many documents are signed or statements made, a purchase isn’t real until the platform actually arrives in the country
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This guy is Jane's and sometime Naval News contributors. What he say is basically same thing that I say for years in Indonesian Thread. No MoU, LoI etc matters as contracts, until it is being paid (at least down payment), activate, and the assets being build and delivered to Indonesia.

So despite all the signing, all the intentions for several types, it all back to which ons going to execute and activate. So far it is Rafale that become only Fighters deal that already effective and enter TNI-AU inventory.

Present fleet of Flankers, F-16 and Hawk 200/100 has choice to be replace or partially upgrade. Let's see one by one on the replacement or upgrade program that being talk on those assets:

Flankers:
  • Su-27 being talk to be replace by Su-35E, and Su-30 all being upgrade to Su-30MK2 latest standard.
  • However not discounting possibility that all Su-27 and Su-30 will have no upgrade and being replace all by Su-35E. This means Flankers shown sign will be maintain.
F-16:
  • Sloted to be replace as F-16 C/D are not having upgrade program, and F-16 A/B being upgrade only for just another decade.
  • The Replacement that seems increasingly either going to be KF-21 Blk2 or J-10CE. All depends on KAI industrial agreement with DI. As rumours talk whatever being choose has to provide industrial agreement with DI.
  • However not discounting some interim fighters still being pursue until either new KF-21 Blk 2 or J-10CE can be acquired.
Hawk 209/109:
  • This is the type that set to be replace for sometime ago. However despite initial sign, it is going to be replace by Rafale, it is now shown sign going to be replace by another type of LCA.
  • That LCA could be M346 or T-50i being upgrade to FA-50.
  • With the agreement shown M346 version being negotiate is M346 Block 20, in my opinion the LCA going to be M346 Blk 20 while T-50i will not be upgrade to FA-50 and stay as LIFT. However it could be the other way around, as FA-50 Blk 20 upgrade have BVR capabilities.
All this shown, from all the chaotic procurement and MoU, LoI signed, some more realistic budgetary patern emerge. Still in Indonesia typical political 'deals' can happen. Like this JF-17 talk (mostly claim by Pakistan source only), can still come out as surprise candidate for LCA.

All this also shown the new capabilities are coming in the form of Rafale. 3 sq of Rafale is going to be new additional sq. While existing sq going to be replace with one type or another as mentioned above.
 
ComradeVortex

ComradeVortex

New Member
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Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
nasional.kompas.com

Harga Jet F-15EX dari AS Kemahalan, RI Belum Anggarkan Dana

Pengadaan pesawat jet tempur F-15EX oleh Indonesia terhambat harga tinggi, kata Kementerian Pertahanan.
nasional.kompas.com nasional.kompas.com

Acknowledgent from MinDef that the reason of F-15EX negotiation breakdown is the price. The negotiation can not reach agreement on price and financing package. Well standard explanation saying too expensive for our taste, and we got other potential supplier that can meet our expectation.

ComradeVortex said:
Dear God…
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More likely ESS will become Aggressor Training Provider. Just like Draken become Aggressor Provider use by USAF and several NATO AF. Question will be if the service affordable or not.

Aggressor training provider condider more economics then build your own. You only contract and lease their service, and they maintain their own fleet and maintenance regime. They also provide training regime with using contractors many of them ex USAF or RAF or could be Russian AF.

topaces.com

Top Aces | Advanced Airborne Training

Top Aces provides advanced airborne training to the world's leading air forces.
topaces.com topaces.com

Ready Everywhere – Draken - Adversary Air

Our Adversary Air service, Sword, emulates enemy tactics, delivering cost-effective complexity and mass.
www.draken.aero www.draken.aero

I still see the way ESS describe their service, it is tend to be Aggressor Training Provider as both example above.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
ComradeVortex said:
Dear God…

www.linkedin.com

#aggressor #leonardo #indonesia #tni #m346f #ess #singaporeairshow #lift #training | E-System Solution FZ

Indonesia Air Force Pilot Training Modernization: #Aggressor #Leonardo #Indonesia #TNI #M346F #ESS #SingaporeAirShow #LIFT #Training PT E System Solutions (ESS) is proud and honored to deploy Advanced Training System solutions for the Indonesia Air Force and Army Rotary Aircraft Units. The...
www.linkedin.com www.linkedin.com

View attachment 54270
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I don't see the urgency to do this, specially using the MiG-29. Its better to use our Hawks for it.
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
The Agreessor Provider like Draken, TopAces etc use second hand military aircraft, from A4, F5, Mirage F1, L39, F-16 or Mig 29 as EES Aggressor Proposal is to give their AF clients, chances to get real adversary competition, without they have to provide their own Aggressor unit.

Even USAF and USN that begin the trend of building their own Aggressor units, now more and more contracted Training Provider for aggressor training environment. Even more mature AF see this as more economical way to get adversarial training environment.

From my understanding ESS will create and provide this aggressor training unit with 6 heavily modified Mig 29 with advance sensors that can mimic latest gen 4.5 EW capabilities. They also provide drones to help conduct EW warfare environment. Usually those training providers use ex USAF, RAF, or other NATO or even Russian pilots to simulate realistic adversarial environment in their training silabus.

However we still have to see the detail ESS Training regime thar they offer to TNI-AU, whether it is going to be in similar league with more mature Aggressor Provider in North America and Euro Land.
 
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