South Korea first started venturing into the regional defence scene in the late 1970's and by the 1980's had already gained contracts from various countries. The prime difference then was that the Koreans were only able to offer mainly low tech stuff or stuff produced under license based on foreign designs and were unable to extensive offer term industrial/techogicalcollabotstion. It's also often realised that one of the traditional defence exports of South Korea was ammo, charges, fuses, explosives and mines.
Indonesian Aero News
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Ananda
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So far TNI-AU does not have dedicated conversion unit sq for each type. Their practice always include the double seaters as conversion unit also as part of operating sq. So the F-16B/D always mixed with F-16A/C operational units or Hawk 100 also mixed with Hawk 200. Thus the double seaters basically having dual function for operational and conversions.
There's some French sources that put 42 Rafale order will consist of 30 single seater and 12 double seaters. Thus why there's possibility there will be 2 Operational Sq and 1 Conversion sq, however so far it's not TNI-AU practices.
Yes, the ideal make up is Heavy and Medium-Light Fighters. That's why in this thread I already put the ideal Fighters configuration should be F-15ID and F-16V or Rafale with FA-50. Again Indonesia defense procurement is not only based on users (TNI) assessment, but also Political consideration. That ORBAT I've put in my previous post is a potential based on Political procurement choices. For Indonesia that's the most likely to happen.
TNI-AU from SBY era already put Heavy and Medium-Light combo in their plan. They always want F-15E for heavy fighters, however since US only give green light before for F-16, then Su-30 is the second choice.
During SBY administration, the plan is to build Su-30 with F-16 mixed for 2020+, with F-16 will gradually replace Hawk 200. Those F-16 will be then gradually replace also by KFX by end of 2020's decade onwards. That's one of reasons why they are looking for second hand refurbished F-16, as they are in the end will be interim ones until KFX come.
This administration seems have different idea. With Russia out of the procurement mixed, then they replace them with Frenchie. The question on KFX/KF-21 then become bit redundant with Rafale coming into the mix.
Can it be two types mixed in the end ? It's still can. It could be F-15ID with Rafale mixed or Rafale with KF-21 mixed (F-16 that I put in ORBAT, I suspect will be gradually on retirement path by 2030+ anyway). However Politics can also push for 3 types mixed of F-15ID, Rafale, and KF-21.
F-15ID is most likely will stay in plan, now US already give green lights, TNI-AU will insist on that if as Flankers replacement (I suspect that's why those Flankers only have minimal upgrade so far).
I do expect some opposition from US law makers that doesn't like Indonesia (and there're some of them in Capitol Hill). However since Trump already approved for F-15 in principle during his last days in office, and now Biden also give approval, I do sense bipartisan support can be lobby. If that happens, Indonesia will have no choice but to take the offer. Sometimes people forgot that Indonesia also have considerable trade surplus with US.
That's why if ROK still able to get through their Political Lobby in Jakarta, then three types can come to future TNI-AU fighters inventory. That's not much different with present mix of Flankers, F-16 and Hawk 200.
For me personally I do hope for F-15ID replacing Flankers as Heavy Fighters, Rafale replacing F-16 as MRCA and FA-50 (instead KF-21) replacing Hawk 200 as LCA. That's provide more balance fleet.
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Ananda
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Yes they're presently with the advancement of their Industry can provide more advance equipment. However in 80's what they offer some of them can also being considered medium tech. LST and Missile Boats can not be considered low tech. It's not high tech also.
As I also point out they are since Soeharto era already offered MBT and some armoured vehicles and Indonesia also sources some of F-5E engine from ROK (eventough TNI-AU found they still shown less thrust then original US one in high altitude. So TNI-AU sometimes mixed them).
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
So, the planning is that the delivery of the first 6 Rafales will be in less than 5 years....
That means SkU.14 will not have own aircrafts until 2027.
www.kompas.tv
That means SkU.14 will not have own aircrafts until 2027.
Pesawat Tempur Rafale Baru Tiba di Indonesia dalam 56 Bulan
Menurut Dahnil, pembelian pesawat tempur ini sebagai lompatan jauh yang dilakukan Prabowo untuk menunjukkan komitmennya menjadi menteri pertahanan.
www.kompas.tv
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Ananda
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Let's see how it's going to be. Prabowo's before in media seems try to get the first batch even not all come before this term end. It's part of his Political capital, for next election.
That's why I wrote before even if we lock the contract for all 42 order this year, it will be stretched for at least end of this decade. That's why TNI-AU still plan to stretch the operationality of Hawk and Flankers at least by end of this decade and F-16 until early part to middle of next one. Whatever they order this term will not all be operational until end of this decade at most.
Dasault line is not as big as US Boeing or LM line. They already have to build Greece, India, Egypt and big order from UAE. Not counting existing order from French AF and Qatar.
That's why I wrote before even if we lock the contract for all 42 order this year, it will be stretched for at least end of this decade. That's why TNI-AU still plan to stretch the operationality of Hawk and Flankers at least by end of this decade and F-16 until early part to middle of next one. Whatever they order this term will not all be operational until end of this decade at most.
Dasault line is not as big as US Boeing or LM line. They already have to build Greece, India, Egypt and big order from UAE. Not counting existing order from French AF and Qatar.
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Additional order from India? Are you sure about that?
Ananda
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Yes I make a mistake on that. Just reading some Indian forums, which seems some of them are sure there will be new order for Rafale for India. Should taught me to be carefull taking infornation from Indian forums.
www.rfi.fr
Seems they are work up on this. After I read others in Indian forums that updating the legal problems Dasault have in India, I doubt there will be new order soon. Sorry forgot to remove that (add, just remove that part).
France, India step up military allegiance with offer of more Rafale jets
France has offered to arm India’s new aircraft carrier with Rafale jets as it looks to ramp up ties with its South Asian ally after Australia’s rejection of a submarine deal and nagging worries over…
Seems they are work up on this. After I read others in Indian forums that updating the legal problems Dasault have in India, I doubt there will be new order soon. Sorry forgot to remove that (add, just remove that part).
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Just the 36 ordered a couple of years ago. The MRFA (renamed to MMRCA 2.0) proposal for 114 jets hasn’t been decided but Dassault thinks it’s the favourite to win.
Ananda
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Seems Dasault already creating some Political mess in India. Just like in Indonesia, Indian Politics can create havoc on the plan procurement deals.
French report reignites row over Rafale deal: Congress demands JPC, BJP says INC stands for 'I Need Commission'
French investigative journal Mediapart's latest findings have reignited the political row between the BJP and the Congress over the Rs 59,000 crore Rafale fighter jet deal.
I do suspect they have to sort this first out, don't think BJP administrations want to touch Dasault before they can clean up this mess first.
The Dassault has one production line in Mérignac is currently at 2 per month, based on most reports although this is being pushed up to 3 per months. That puts it at around 24 (minimum) to 36 (maximum) per year.
India orders (36) are completed, and current orders are for Armée de l'Air (replacement for the Croatian/Greece orders) and the new export orders (Egypt, Greece. Qatar, UAE in that order)
India orders (36) are completed, and current orders are for Armée de l'Air (replacement for the Croatian/Greece orders) and the new export orders (Egypt, Greece. Qatar, UAE in that order)
Most likely a standard sales pitch. There are markets not just within the region but elsewhere as well.
Indonesia Procurement of F15ID, a security or an economic motives?
There's an opinion piece written by someone who work in the ministry of finance which I find interesting, unfortunately it's written in Indonesian. Essentially, the author share an economic perspective to the recent F15 offer by the US, which sought to narrow the trade deficit it has with Indonesia. The author present finance ministry data, which shows that Indonesia trade surplus with the US is widening, with 2021 reaching the highest of 14.5 Billion USD.
At the same time, there's not much that the US could offer to narrow this gap. Agricultural product like soy and wheat is in high demand in Indonesia, but it still pales in comparison to the gap. Automobile product is also another, but Indonesia always prefer Japanese product, and US is not so popular in this regard. One the few things that the US can offer is military product, hence why the US is offering F15s worth 14 Billion USD. Of course, it has the added benefit of increasing US influence in the region, and politically, it can be seen as the US increasing security of ASEAN countries against the threat of Chinese aggression.
Lots of military enthusiast in Indonesia is surprised that the US is willing to offer such a high-spec F15s, especially with EPAWSS, which they thought only meant for USAF. I'm still not exactly sure why the US would do this. perhaps they see it as an equivalent exchange to the F-35 which Indonesia used to show interest, or maybe it's to inflate the price of the offer so as to narrow the deficit as much as possible. In any case, the opinion piece does show that the US actually has a lot of benefit in offering these F15s.
There's an opinion piece written by someone who work in the ministry of finance which I find interesting, unfortunately it's written in Indonesian. Essentially, the author share an economic perspective to the recent F15 offer by the US, which sought to narrow the trade deficit it has with Indonesia. The author present finance ministry data, which shows that Indonesia trade surplus with the US is widening, with 2021 reaching the highest of 14.5 Billion USD.
At the same time, there's not much that the US could offer to narrow this gap. Agricultural product like soy and wheat is in high demand in Indonesia, but it still pales in comparison to the gap. Automobile product is also another, but Indonesia always prefer Japanese product, and US is not so popular in this regard. One the few things that the US can offer is military product, hence why the US is offering F15s worth 14 Billion USD. Of course, it has the added benefit of increasing US influence in the region, and politically, it can be seen as the US increasing security of ASEAN countries against the threat of Chinese aggression.
Lots of military enthusiast in Indonesia is surprised that the US is willing to offer such a high-spec F15s, especially with EPAWSS, which they thought only meant for USAF. I'm still not exactly sure why the US would do this. perhaps they see it as an equivalent exchange to the F-35 which Indonesia used to show interest, or maybe it's to inflate the price of the offer so as to narrow the deficit as much as possible. In any case, the opinion piece does show that the US actually has a lot of benefit in offering these F15s.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
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This's actually not a new things, it has been talk in this thread or other Indonesian threads since few years ago. Indonesia need with US not only in access toward their commercial market, but also Financial market/system and Geopolitical balancing. Our International trade dependence toward US dominate international finance market, actually bigger factor then export access.
This's one of the reasons why the government willing to follow CAATSA demand to distance our military procurement from Russia and other potential 'problematic' sources. Well good thing some 'finance' people also put it in media also. It is balancing to the 'defense' analyst/sales agent that keep talking in media to sources defense procurement toward 'problematic' countries.
Just Add:
It is unlikely the trade deficit can be cover only by defense procurement. US will going to have trade deficits toward most East and South East Asian nations for years to come. However US also gain benefits directly and inderectly when some parties used their trade within current global financial system. Those actually not calculated on GDP calculations.
This's one of the reasons why the government willing to follow CAATSA demand to distance our military procurement from Russia and other potential 'problematic' sources. Well good thing some 'finance' people also put it in media also. It is balancing to the 'defense' analyst/sales agent that keep talking in media to sources defense procurement toward 'problematic' countries.
Just Add:
It is unlikely the trade deficit can be cover only by defense procurement. US will going to have trade deficits toward most East and South East Asian nations for years to come. However US also gain benefits directly and inderectly when some parties used their trade within current global financial system. Those actually not calculated on GDP calculations.
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I can understand that Indonesia want to buy F-15, for political and economical reason, but also technical point of view it makes sense, since it is a very powerful platform, and with long range, well suited for a large country like Indonesia.
It is not clear to me why they decided to also buy the Rafale in addition? Are they worried about potential future sanctions from the US? Or other reasons?
As for the F-15 configuration offered being "high-end" -- to some extent true, but keep in mind that to the US, F-35 and F-22 are considered "high end". A 4.5 gen fighter, even one as capable as the latest F-15 version is no longer considered true "high end".
It is not clear to me why they decided to also buy the Rafale in addition? Are they worried about potential future sanctions from the US? Or other reasons?
As for the F-15 configuration offered being "high-end" -- to some extent true, but keep in mind that to the US, F-35 and F-22 are considered "high end". A 4.5 gen fighter, even one as capable as the latest F-15 version is no longer considered true "high end".
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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The arms sanction give by USSR after Soekarno's fall and US after Soeharto's fall, put big psyches on some defense planners and Political circles, as for Indonesia must thread well on Geopolitical game and put balance.
So this is Political move. It will also don't make sense (on operational level support sustainment), after this Rafale they still want to induct more or less similar capabilities fighter like KF-21 Blk1. However the chances still 50:50 because if KF-21 will also inducted, will also only due to Political Consideration.
Like I put before, French is seen by some in Indonesian Political circles as more neutral ground choice.
Ananda
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4.5th gen toward 5th gen, always become hype on what to bring. However for me personally it's matter more to build robust and reliable data network environment. Perhaps that's why Euro zone two NG fighters can be said skip 5th and build 6th gen. Asside some in Euro also have access toward F-35, but other (like French) seems stick with 4.5th then go straight into 6th gen development.
I'm no defense expert, but there're many argument pro and cons whether it's worth building 5th gen capacities or stay with 4.5 and then later on goes straight into 6th gen environment.
If you were, you’d focus on enablers of military capability, rather than shiny toys… The shiny toys might be the tip of the spear, but a tip without the shaft is not very threatening… Building a robust system, including networking (sharing of data) will bring far more advantages in a combat sense, than the ‘nth’ degree of alleged performance from this platform v that platform or this fighter carrying ‘x’ number of missiles v another fighter with ‘y’ number of missiles…
Combat is not a linear series of incidents. It is not 2 combatants inside a ring… Your rifle might outrange mine. It might fire a projectile accurately to a further distance than mine can and it might have a greater magazine capacity. But what does that matter if I can discern your location quicker and more precisely than you can mine, and I can share that information with my colleague who is in a position to use his ‘inferior’ rifle against you, without you being aware of it? The result is that the alleged advantages of your rifle are meaningless. I was able to win this combat and I didn’t even fire a shot…
I hope for the TNI-AU’s sake that their political masters take on this concept and develop some degree of understanding. A new fleet of big shiny toys, makes an excellent photo opportunity to be sure. It doesn’t necessarily do much for your country overall though…
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Indonesia's plan to develop a gunship variant of the CN235 twin-engine multi-purpose aircraft has been delayed indefinitely amid a push for the country to commercialise a home-grown aviation biofuel type.
The flying testbed that was supposed to be a platform from which IPTN will conduct the firing trials is now involved in pre-commercialisation processes of an Indonesian-developed palm-oil based aviation biofuel known as BioAvtur.
A gunship version of the CN235 is not only more expensive and complicated to develop, but there is maybe not such an urgent demand for a gunship version and a BioAvtur version of the CN235 is commercially more attractive.
BioAvtur J2,4 contains 2,4% palmoil and is developed together with Pertamina, ITB and BPDPKS.
Here a more detailed explanation about BioAvtur J2,4.
The plan is to increase the biological amount to 5% in 2025.
And IPTN is still trying to sell the CN235 MPA to the Philippines.
www.janes.com
The flying testbed that was supposed to be a platform from which IPTN will conduct the firing trials is now involved in pre-commercialisation processes of an Indonesian-developed palm-oil based aviation biofuel known as BioAvtur.
A gunship version of the CN235 is not only more expensive and complicated to develop, but there is maybe not such an urgent demand for a gunship version and a BioAvtur version of the CN235 is commercially more attractive.
BioAvtur J2,4 contains 2,4% palmoil and is developed together with Pertamina, ITB and BPDPKS.
Singapore Airshow 2022: Indonesia's CN-235 gunship plans delayed by push for aviation biofuel
Indonesia's plan to develop a gunship variant of the CN-235 twin-engine multi-purpose aircraft has been delayed indefinitely amid a push for the country to commercialise...
www.janes.com
Here a more detailed explanation about BioAvtur J2,4.
The plan is to increase the biological amount to 5% in 2025.
And IPTN is still trying to sell the CN235 MPA to the Philippines.
Singapore Airshow 2022: PT Dirgantara to sweeten deal for Philippine patrol aircraft requirement
Indonesian state-owned aircraft manufacturer PT Dirgantara (PTDI) is sweetening its offer for the Philippine Air Force's (PAF's) requirement for two maritime patrol...
www.janes.com
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Who actually decided on this plan? It seem to be done without addressing a question of market demands. TNI's needs for close fire support can be met using the Super Tucanos, AH-64s etc. As for the platform, it is smaller than the C-295 which means lesser payloads. Given the Jordanians went down this route and it didn't really take off, I don't see this makes any commercial or military sense.