Indonesian Aero News

Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Sandhi Yudha said:
On the other hand the size and weight is very similar to the CH-4B and MQ-1B, but i can not believe that Indonesia just hacked into the computersystems of CASC and General Atomics.
Click to expand...
Seems more likely the development of this UAV either used Turkish or other Euro sources, rather than China moreover US. Considering many defense SOE sources their tech with Euro sources.

However the performance of CH-4 I believe will become a bentchmark considering it's the most capable UAV in TNI-AU inventories. The other MALE UAV that could be the bentchmark is Turkish ANKA. However no public information lately on how far the scope of DI co-op with Turkish ANKA manufacturer (which before DI officials talk publicly). So it's remain on area of rumours.

I suspect the SOE consortium on this project will tone down any involvement on foreign tech sources. Just at the time when DI predecessor IPTN build N250. I remember even when N250 being launch, all foreign 'advisors' told to not come to ceremony. After all those SOE politically try to paint this as much as possible as pure local tech based. The stamp of 'Karya Anak Bangsa' is very important for them. It's politically important to stamp is as Indonesian Creation.

Meanwhile Kris FB shown picture of more CH-4 arriving in TNI-AU inventory. Shown that seems so far TNI-AU still quite satisfied with this China made UAV. Something bit rare considering many TNI sources that shown dissatisfaction with China made military asset.

FB_IMG_1630376737973.jpg
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Ananda said:
Seems more likely the development of this UAV either used Turkish or other Euro sources, rather than China moreover US. Considering many defense SOE sources their tech with Euro sources.

However the performance of CH-4 I believe will become a bentchmark considering it's the most capable UAV in TNI-AU inventories. The other MALE UAV that could be the bentchmark is Turkish ANKA. However no public information lately on how far the scope of DI co-op with Turkish ANKA manufacturer (which before DI officials talk publicly). So it's remain on area of rumours.

I suspect the SOE consortium on this project will tone down any involvement on foreign tech sources. Just at the time when DI predecessor IPTN build N250. I remember even when N250 being launch, all foreign 'advisors' told to not come to ceremony. After all those SOE politically try to paint this as much as possible as pure local tech based. The stamp of 'Karya Anak Bangsa' is very important for them. It's politically important to stamp is as Indonesian Creation.

Meanwhile Kris FB shown picture of more CH-4 arriving in TNI-AU inventory. Shown that seems so far TNI-AU still quite satisfied with this China made UAV. Something bit rare considering many TNI sources that shown dissatisfaction with China made military asset.

View attachment 48457
Click to expand...
Does TNI-AU receive more CH-4B because they are really satisfied with the performance and reliability of this UAV, or is it because they have to accept more because the government wants to order more? Merpati Nusantara was forced in the past to accept the Xian MA-60.

Ive read on the internet that the Type 85 twin 23 mm AAA is from a horrible quality, but the QW-3 seems to do its job quite well.

Anyway, here we can see a unique photo of a TNI-AU CH-4B UAV from below, proving that the CH-4B can fly.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1432933641483608065


Something else...
Here we see the first flight of the latest CN235-220MPA built by IPTN for TNI-AL, AX-2349.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433000726511296513
 
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Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Sandhi Yudha said:
Anyway, here we can see a unique photo of a TNI-AU CH-4B UAV from below, proving that the CH-4B can fly.
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The photo that you put (from Deino tweet) shown why CH-4 still being ordered by TNI-AU. It's in the budget, and it's available to provide relative complete MALE specs. Most CH-4 users even the Middle Eastern one take this, cause MQ-9 is not available for them (for example). Some of CH-4 users clearly have budget for MQ-9, but Chinese that want to provide MALE UAV that 'relative close' toward what MQ-9 can provide.

Anyway:
tekno.tempo.co

Proyek Inovasi Terkini PT Dirgantara Indonesia, Ada Rudal Nasional

Direktur Utama PT Dirgantara Indonesia Elfien Goentoro mengungkap tiga inovasi yang tengah dikembangkan kendati pasar aerospace global menurun.
tekno.tempo.co tekno.tempo.co

DI CEO told media there're three current new initiative that they will be focusing (working together with SOE consortium):
1. Black Eagle MALE UAV,
2. Amphibious version of N219,
3. National SSM.

The last one seems what being talk by MinDef sources before. Projects to basically 'copy' Chinese C705 SSM. Well China used to 'copy' other people defense items. So why not used theirs as based to 'copy'.

Add: 'copy' probably not politically correct term. The term that should be used is 'Reverse Engineering'. The term that talk it's not direct 'copy', but also involved indigenous engineering effort. Although it's still basically 'copy'.
 
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Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
tni-au-dan-us-pacaf-nih3.jpg

Got this photo from Tribun News site, on TNI-AU and USAF-PAC Command manuver exercise between F-16 and B-52 (from Guam). As far as I know, this's first manuver exercises between TNI-AU fighters with USAF venerable B-52.

The exercise conducted yesterday in Makasar strait. The location is also not far from the plan site of Indonesian new capital, as those F-16 embarked from Dhomber AB in Balikpapan.

The exercise itself conducted in practically short time. However with what the USAF asset involved, and the location of this manuver exercise, in my opinion clearly shown additional level of co-op between the two Air Force.
 
Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Well, the CH-4B unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) has formally received military airworthiness certification from the Indonesian Ministry of Defence The TNI-AU currently has a fleet of six Chinese-built CH-4B MALE UAVs that were ordered in 2019.

Indonesian Air Force's fleet of CH-4 UAVs granted airworthiness approval

The Indonesian Air Force's (TNI-AU's) fleet of CH-4B medium-altitude, long-endurance (MALE) unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) has formally received military airworthiness...
www.janes.com www.janes.com

Ananda said:
View attachment 48464

Got this photo from Tribun News site, on TNI-AU and USAF-PAC Command manuver exercise between F-16 and B-52 (from Guam). As far as I know, this's first manuver exercises between TNI-AU fighters with USAF venerable B-52.

The exercise conducted yesterday in Makasar strait. The location is also not far from the plan site of Indonesian new capital, as those F-16 embarked from Dhomber AB in Balikpapan.

The exercise itself conducted in practically short time. However with what the USAF asset involved, and the location of this manuver exercise, in my opinion clearly shown additional level of co-op between the two Air Force.
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Thanks for sharing, here some more photos.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433280689177120776

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1433501026460438543
 
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Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Tweeter guy put his assessment on Rafale contract development on you tube channel related to him. Off course as Frenchie defense agent in here, he's showing how more beneficial Frenchie stuff over US ones (considering it's the competitors for TNI-AU order).

However I put this as he's talking on the amount of contract which possible reach USD 7 bio. This is what I'm talking before on the level of defense procurement foreign financing line that can be given on this term.

Finance people already indicating USD 20+ bio on this term as the most can be given. Even that number is not a guarantee. Again financing defense items from foreign sources most likely using foreign financing line. That's already happen since Soeharto time. At least he acknowledged that. So with potential 40:40:20 distribution that even MinDef sources talk between AF, Navy, and Army shares, USD 7bio practically already taking close to all AF financing shares on this term.

So if this tweeter guy talk on USD 7.0 bio for Rafale deal, and that practically put an end of other TNI-AU plan on this term. TNI-AU wants to have more CGI radar, more C-130J, want more Mid-Range SAM system, they want to build ISTAR and AEW capabilities. That can't happen with the potential foreign financing line that they can get, if Rafale packages cost the amount that Twitter guy put.

With the projected economics condition for the rest of this term, especially after COVID. It will be very lucky if MinDef still can get all USD 20+ bio foreign financing line that's been indicated by Finance people before.

Really amaze me with that limitations condition, MinDef still adamant with Rafale. Hope they can get better deal if they still strongly push on Rafale. I know the logics on getting Frenchie deal, and I even talk as Frenchie can be Political alternative if you don't want to choose either US or Russian stuff (as I have put couple years ago in this thread). However it's on the condition that enough budget available.

Ooo well.
 
A

anan

Member
What light attack turboprop aircraft does the Indonesian Air Force fly (not the trainer and ISR skews)?:
---15 Embraer EMB 314 A-29 attack skews
---Assume none of the IDAF's 17 KAI KT-1 Woongbi are weaponized?
---Assume none of the IDAF's 29 Grob G 120TP are weaponized?
---Assume none of the IDAF's 18 SIAI-Marchetti SF.260 are weaponized?
---Assume none of the IDAF's 9 EADS CASA C-295 are weaponized?
---Assume none of the IDAF's 5 CASA/IPTN CN-235 are weaponized?
---Maybe the CASC Rainbow--although an armed UAV--can deliver similar functionality?

It seems very unwise for the IDAF to have so few armed light attack turboprops. Indonesia has a lot of islands and sea lanes that light attack turboprops can provide CAS cover for. Plus light attack turboprops are far cheaper to operate than other aircraft and can be launched from make shift airports.

Here is a dumb question. Why would the IDAF have so many different types of turboprop aircraft? Why didn't Indonesia choose to license manufacture armed varients of EADS CASA C-295 or KAI KT1-C? The KAI KT1-C in particular might be interesting because of the close strategic relationship Indonesia and Indonesian Aerospace have with Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI).
 
Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
anan said:
What light attack turboprop aircraft does the Indonesian Air Force fly (not the trainer and ISR skews)?:
---15 Embraer EMB 314 A-29 attack skews
---Assume none of the IDAF's 17 KAI KT-1 Woongbi are weaponized?
---Assume none of the IDAF's 29 Grob G 120TP are weaponized?
---Assume none of the IDAF's 18 SIAI-Marchetti SF.260 are weaponized?
---Assume none of the IDAF's 9 EADS CASA C-295 are weaponized?
---Assume none of the IDAF's 5 CASA/IPTN CN-235 are weaponized?
---Maybe the CASC Rainbow--although an armed UAV--can deliver similar functionality?

It seems very unwise for the IDAF to have so few armed light attack turboprops. Indonesia has a lot of islands and sea lanes that light attack turboprops can provide CAS cover for. Plus light attack turboprops are far cheaper to operate than other aircraft and can be launched from make shift airports.

Here is a dumb question. Why would the IDAF have so many different types of turboprop aircraft? Why didn't Indonesia choose to license manufacture armed varients of EADS CASA C-295 or KAI KT1-C? The KAI KT1-C in particular might be interesting because of the close strategic relationship Indonesia and Indonesian Aerospace have with Korean Aerospace Industries (KAI).
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Wasn't the SF.260 already retired from service?

Choosing the KT-1C or KA-1 instead of the EMB-314 is, in my opinion, indeed more logic, practical and cost effective.
Maybe the heavier weaponload can be one of the reasons, or the aramide fibre armour protection, or the two internal wing-mounted 12,7 mm machine guns (with 200 rounds of ammunition each), or the capacity to carry a higher variety of ordnance on the weapon hardpoints? Because the EMB-314 isn't better in flight performance.

The 9 C295 turboprops were acquired to replace the old Fokker F27, as the bigger sister of the CN235, its the best choice. I actually dont know if TNI-AU has a serious demand for an armed CN235/C295. Maybe the need isn't high enough and the amount of aircraft is too limited to justify the high development costs.

TNI-AU is probably already more or less satisfied with the 15 EMB-314, 6 CH-4B UCAV and Hawk Mk.109/209 for the COIN and attack role. It actually doesnt need that much to fight the current amount of rebels. Besides that the army still has its fleet of various armed helicopters.
 
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A

anan

Member
Sandhi Yudha, we are agreed on the KT-1C--with maybe licensed manufacturing by Indonesian Aerospace. Specifically armed variants since Indonesia seems to have enough trainer aircraft. I would think that they would be very effective over sea lanes and small islands.

Does the IDAF really only have 15 armed light attack turboprops? Why so few? Indonesia has a large economy and a lot of area.

Plus Indonesia can use turboprops to train other air forces on Indonesian soil as part of international coalitions.

A question on the 15 Embraer EMB 314 A-29 attack aircraft. Did Indonesia buy them straight from Brazil, or use Sierra Nevada Corporation in the USA?

Does the IDAF plan to buy more light attack turboprops in the future? If so, presumably they should buy either more Embraer EMB 314 A-29 attack aircaft or more KT-1C attack aircraft?
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
anan said:
seems very unwise for the IDAF to have so few armed light attack turboprops. Indonesia has a lot of islands and sea lanes that light attack turboprops can provide CAS cover
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Why Indonesia need more Turboprop COIN asside what TNI-AU already have right now ? Is Indonesia facing lot off insurgencies at this moment ? The Super Tucano being procured as replacement for OV-10 as specialised COIN. Even in the heights of OV-10 with 3 active Insurgencies, 1 sq of them already enough.

Those three Insurgencies are Aceh, East Timor and Papua. Right now only Papua insurgencies that left, and among those three Papua ones (before and now) is the lowest intensities among all of them.

Turboprop only good for either COIN or Basic-Mid trainers. What Indonesia has right now is already enough, thus the MinDef and TNI Strategic Planners don't see the need for more (as @Sandhi Yudha already put). For surveillance they are more on developing UAV/UAS assets even armed them as UCAV. That's why the Black Eagle program coming from, and why CH-4 being choose.

Any Turboprop development will be more on either using CN-235 (for ISTAR purpose) asside the MPA version that already operational, or using NC-212 and N-219 for surveillance. This to support MALE UAV strategy. Definitely there're no need for more Turboprop COIN on top what already operational.

Note: The Inventory of CN-235 and C-295 that you have posted above are only the transport ones being operated by TNI-AU. It doesn't include the CN-235 MPA version that operate by the AF and Navy.

You can check back on this thread or other online Indonesian sources that already discussed that. Also Sierra Nevada only doing A-29 for USAF (and Afghanistan AF which basically supplied by USAF). Everyone else that operate A-29/Super Tucano ordered it directly from Embrear. They can get better deal from Embrear.
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
https://www.facebook.com/181276675314017/posts/3980354582072855

From Kris FB. Few other Indonesian Media also talk similar thing. Basically the TNI-AU chief went to LM facilities to inspect the production progress of C-130J they ordered.

Seems the production of the contract for 5 C-130J being reported before, already turn to production. Guess the fund for transport aircraft got more priority.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=6758698980822664&id=485692044790087

Add from TNI-AU FB pages. Shown some photo of TNI-AU C-130J in production. This's first brand new C-130 order being done since the C-130H in the 80's. The last procurement before this are the ex RAAF C-130H.

Will see if the rumours of getting ex RAF C-130J also turn on something. One thing for sure with the amount of Budget being allocated for this term, it will still not going be enough to get full Sq of C-130J as TNI-AU wish, unless some combo of new and used ones being taken. Especially if MinDef still want Rafale.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
OPSSG said:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1436127865154654209
The government and industry sources told Defense News that Indonesia will acquire 5 C-130Js under a Direct Commercial Sales contract.

Congrats to the TNI AU, on being the second operator of the type in ASEAN after Brunei (2018).
Click to expand...
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=6758698980822664&id=485692044790087

www.janes.com

Indonesia proceeds with plans to buy new C-130J-30 transport aircraft

The Indonesian Air Force (TNI-AU) has confirmed plans to buy additional Lockheed Martin C-130-series tactical transport aircraft.
www.janes.com www.janes.com


So
| " ..... buyer credit guarantees for Indonesia were supplied for the acquisition of Lockheed Martin C-130J Hercules medium transport aircraft (maximum liability of GBP74.6 million) and air-defence systems from Thales UK (maximum liability of GBP29.8 million)." |
...seems to be for these new C-130J-30 directly delivered by Lockheed-Martin or second hands from RAF?

UK government reports export credit arrangements for 2020

The UK's export credit agency, UK Export Financing (UKEF), revealed in its annual report on 22 June that it had underwritten a record GBP12.3 billion (USD17.1 billion)...
www.janes.com www.janes.com
 
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Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Sandhi Yudha said:
seems to be for these new C-130J-30 directly delivered by Lockheed-Martin or second hands from RAF?
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The contract for 5 with LM is for brand new one. The airframes that TNI-AU chief sign on, is the first Airframe for their order. However this UKEF financing I believe I already ask questions some time ago. Bit unusual for UKEF financing LM products (even if that products have UK components). UKEF is government owned financing house that specializes for financing UK Export (just like US EXIM that build financing US Export).

So unless there's confirmation that the LM contract for 5 C130J financed by UKEF, I still reserve doubt on that. Usually if we buy US Defense Items, it's being finance by US Exim. That's why I still wonder if there's another contract with UK for C-130J. If that so, then it's for ex RAF ones. Bangladesh ex RAF C-130J is being finance by UKEF.

So let's see where the financing for those 5 C-130J from LM coming from. MinDef and TNI-AU already told Parliament they planned a squadron of C-130J. Just as I put in my previous post above, looking on the budget allocated for this term, I only see a squadron of C-130J can happen only if it's combo Brand New and Second hand ones.

Unless they are dropping plan for Rafale and F-15.
 
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OPSSG

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
I agree with Ananda and also suspect the simple way to look at it is 5 new C-130Js from the US and 1 used C-130J from UK. The UK has 1 used aircraft and some UK C-130J spare parts stock to sell (maximum liability of GBP74.6 million). This will give Indonesia a fleet of a total of 6 C-130Js.
 
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T

tonnyc

Well-Known Member
OPSSG said:
I agreed with Ananda and also suspect the simple way to look at it is 5 new C-130Js from the US and 1 used C-130J from UK. The UK has 1 used aircraft and some UK C-130J spare parts stock to sell (maximum liability of GBP74.6 million). This will give Indonesia a fleet of a total of 6 C-130Js.
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The value quoted is too high for 1 used C-130J even if we allow for the purchase of spare parts. It's not impossible if the deal is for a long term parts supply contract, but Indonesia doesn't do that that so I am skeptical that the brass suddenly shown sense.

The UK announced earlier this year that they will retire all 14 of UK's remaining C-130J and J-30 ahead of schedule, with the last one retiring in 2023. I believe Indonesia is aiming to get more than one used C-130J from the UK.

We'll find out later, I guess. I just find the idea that Indonesia will be committing a lot of money on spare parts to be unusual. 74.6 million pound is about $100 million. Shepard estimated the purchase of 5 ex-RAF C-130J by Bangladesh costed around $149 million. Call it $30 million for one C-130J. It's out of character for our Defense Ministry to spend $70 million on spare parts and only buy one aircraft.
 
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