Indonesia: 'green water navy'

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Indonesia's procurement process leaves me baffled. Often they see to come up with an announcement that such and such ship or aircraft is about to be acquired and then nothing.
From a European perspective the process is not that astounding to me. It works virtually identically in Greece for example, but also - on a smaller scale - some Eastern European countries are not dissimilar in such processes.

However they're not unique in that either, we have similar stories over time in Germany for example - i'm thinking of e.g. the 70 small hovercraft that the Bundeswehr wanted to buy in 2005, which in various forms with announcements went on for nearly ten years before everyone agreed that hovercraft don't make sense at all for the purposes stated, the numbers stated are completely arbitrary, the army is dissolving the units slated to use them while the navy never was interested despite original announcements, there's no company building any such vehicle especially within the constraints set out, and it's a continuous money sink....


For Indonesia I'd presume it to be a trade-off game between different ministries and their priorities, changing government policies, a quick-win-based publicity strategy, influence of lobbying agents, and of course a little power game between military and other security agencies including their subcomponents competing for budget, approval and prestige to be won on a more adhoc short-term cycle.

It is somewhat interesting that this cycle exists in such a form in light of the fact that compared to other countries Indonesia nominally has very long-term strategic procurement plans though - with the one just announced recently spanning to the mid 2040s and even giving a pricetag for that period.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
somewhat interesting that this cycle exists in such a form in light of the fact that compared to other countries Indonesia nominally has very long-term strategic procurement plans though
@kato Indonesia long term procurement plans is not what you can call detail planing. From 2009 to 2024 there are 3 term minimum requirement force, but it is not detail. It's more on broad term. Now they are trying to build more detail planning from 2024 to 2044.

It is remain to be seen whether this plan can be follow more dicipline ways, especially if there are changing administrations thus political priorities.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Indonesia long term procurement plans is not what you can call detail planing.
It's three layers over here, and i think the Minimum Requirement Force plan is basically the same as the middle layer in that - or at least meant to be similar.
  • first layer : concept of the military,. declaring missions to be fulfilled, geostrategic position and such
  • second layer : spreadsheet of weapon systems (in very broad terms, for example eg. just "15 frigates", "320 tanks" or "120 tube artillery systems" - but not even e.g. a distinction AAW/ASW frigates) that are needed for missions defined in the first layer
  • third layer : detail planning of procurement to keep force levels in line with those declared in the second layer
The first layer in that does not have a defined cycle here, and is only renewed to adapt to changing geopolitics (we're only on our third version since the end of the Cold War).

The second layer has a planning horizon of typically around 15 years (current version as far as i know is for 2032), sometimes with intermediate steps (currently for 2027).

The third layer is more on a scale of 3-5 years with a long-term horizon (preplanning) up to those 15 years of the second layer, and really already goes into planning out procurement (ahead of any contract signing).
 

tonnyc

Well-Known Member
One aspect that outsiders may not realize is that while there may be a consensus on the general procurement plan in the Armed Forces there is usually no consensus on the details. For example, to the best of my knowledge there is a consensus in the Navy that they should get twelve submarines. But there is no consensus on which submarines they should get. Hence why even back when Yudhoyono was president some in the Navy was interested in Kilo-class submarine. That link is from 2013, two years after the contract for three submarines was signed with South Korea. And now a different group of brass wants the Scorpene.

This holds not just for submarines, but also for frigates and corvettes and OPV. And this doesn't just hold for the Navy, but also for the Air Force and Army.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Here a newsreport from a newschannel from the Netherlands. Its about the situation in the North-Natuna Sea and that china wants the whole 9-dash area.
The fisherman tells that it becomes more crowded with the day, that many foreign fishing boats are from Thailand and Vietnam, but that the chinese vessels are the most intimidating. Besides being escorted by chinese coast guard vessels, some chinese fishing boats do look more like naval vessels in disguise. The North Natuna Sea becomes every year emptier, so the Indonesian traditional fishermen can not handle the situation against the better equipped foreigners, and Indonesia does not have enough vessels to patrol Indonesian waters in a proper way.


DSME recently presented their new DSME 3000-design, even bigger and more advanced than the DSME 2000-design. Maybe too big and expensive for TNI-AL?

But the great thing of this package is that there is a possibility that DSME will offer submarine rescue vessels alongside the subs as part of the deal.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
One aspect that outsiders may not realize is that while there may be a consensus on the general procurement plan in the Armed Forces there is usually no consensus on the details. For example, to the best of my knowledge there is a consensus in the Navy that they should get twelve submarines…

This holds not just for submarines, but also for frigates and corvettes and OPV. And this doesn't just hold for the Navy, but also for the Air Force and Army.
In some areas, TNI AL do very well to get the needed platform but there is some penny pinching in arming the vessels procured. They should have installed a 76mm gun at the ‘A’ position — trying as a last ditch measure to fire the LG-1 MKII howitzers from a moving deck (due to wave motion), is not ideal. Lucky there was no need to go ashore, to rescue MV Sinar Kudus in 2011.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
DSME recently presented their new DSME 3000-design, even bigger and more advanced than the DSME 2000-design. Maybe too big and expensive for TNI-AL?
Question more right know in my opinion is whether they (MinDef) still want to work with DSME.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
FB_IMG_1623993043247.jpg

From PT. PAL Facebook page. Showing progress of KRI Cakra after overhaul and refurbishment in PT. PAL. Not much information on the extension scope of the work done, however some unconfirmed report talk about slightly more advance Job compared what it's sister Nanggala has in DSME in 2012.

Still with what happened to Nanggala, there are some talks from Parliament members for the Job on Cakra to be stopped. Perhaps this is why PAL bit tone down on their overhauling progress on Cakra.

I do believe that at least this Submarine can be still use for at least to end of this decade for training purpose of new submariners. There's 'rumours' why Nanggala has 50+ crew on the time of accident from normal 30+ due to it's being used to prepare more new submariners. Off course this rumours being denied by TNI-AL.

More importantly the job provide learning curve for PAL to maintain their Submarine manufacturing capabilities. Still this means also that next batch of new Submarine Project need to be decided soon, as PAL Submarine yard now empty.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member


So, the MT Ocean Star is already floating in the waters near Dili for four months with 21 crew members. The ships was rented by two companies to support oil and gas project activities.

The ships is immobile because there is no fuel anymore, and the companies who rented them gave no response.
Because of this BAKAMLA will send two ships to evacuate the crew, the KN Kuda Laut 4803/403 and the KN Ular Laut 4805/405, both 48 meters long.
 

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Ananda

The Bunker Group
FB_IMG_1624530313339.jpg

Take this photo from Kris FB page, that taking it from Google Earth. I put it as those ships are not from TNI-AL amphibious fleet, but from the Army (TNI-AD) ones. Shown the army maintain reasonable amphibious fleet for inter islands operation.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Is there anything online about Indonesian army transport? I've heard of the Logistics and Transportation Corps, but can't find anything about its equipment. Does it control those ships?
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Is there anything online about Indonesian army transport? I've heard of the Logistics and Transportation Corps, but can't find anything about its equipment. Does it control those ships?
The Satuan Angkutan Air is part of the Pusat Pembekalan Angkutan Angkatan Darat (Pusbengkangad), they possess an amount of fast motor boats, transport ships, landing ship tanks and even a hovercraft but i dont know the amounts and details.


Here are some interesting photos.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
I always a supporter for decent Coast Guard for constabulary duties in Indonesian Maritime securities. The Political will to do this, that in my opinion still need to be enforce not just by present administration, but also the future ones.


Thus this joint maritime training center handle by Bakamla/Indonesian Coast Guard with US Coast Guard Cooperation, is positive move. Not only Internationaly but more importantly signal toward other Indonesian Maritime agencies, that Bakamla is the point guys on maritime constabularies development.

Now, this administrations need to back it up with not only more budget for coast guard, but also switching other agencies maritime budgets to Bakamla. This will provide clear signal for everyone including the commercials players who has authorities on internal maritime securities. This is related toward down sizing maritime securities bureacracy.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
| "Greece, Indonesia and Poland are currently the front-runners among the five live campaigns being chased by the British, David Lockward, Babcock International’s chief executive, told the parliamentary Defence Committee on June 29." |

The match is not over yet...
We just watch and enjoy the show...

 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Quite interesting that Babcock still put Indonesian name for export opportunities, while PAL and MinDef sources told they are working with German and Turkish consulting firms to customise the Iver design for their specifications.

So it will be interesting to see how Babcock going to fill in on this. PAL and MinDef sources so far indicating their Iver Based Frigate projects will be done entirely by PAL. Whether this means all modules sources domestically or some modules being prepared by outside contractors and finish assembly in PAL remain to be seen. However if some Modules involve outside vendors, that's where Babcock coming. As Odense does not have any working yards of their own.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Quite interesting that Babcock still put Indonesian name for export opportunities, while PAL and MinDef sources told they are working with German and Turkish consulting firms to customise the Iver design for their specifications.

So it will be interesting to see how Babcock going to fill in on this. PAL and MinDef sources so far indicating their Iver Based Frigate projects will be done entirely by PAL. Whether this means all modules sources domestically or some modules being prepared by outside contractors and finish assembly in PAL remain to be seen. However if some Modules involve outside vendors, that's where Babcock coming. As Odense does not have any working yards of their own.
So, from which i understand, Indonesia wants to sign a contract with Odense Maritime Technology (OMT), which is as the left over/successor of Odense Steel Shipyard the owner of the Iver Huitfeldt design. But Babcock has bought the design from Odense Maritime Technology (OMT) to use it as the Arrowhead 140 design for the Type 31 program, and now Babcock hopes to construct the ships for Indonesia .

Am i right?


Btw, the Oracle on Twitter really posted something funny a couple of hours ago (behind schedule, because he was exhausted of the two posts from yesterday).

As a loyal fan you should read it @Ananda !
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
The way I interpreted the news so far, Odense still own the design. However if PAL need Odense help for construction, they can't give it. Thus has to work with Babcock that already taking over construction projects of the design.

My bit confusion is on the news that they (PAL) working on other consultants on customising the design. Is this means they are getting approval from Odense (as design IP owners) to work on their own ?
I do suspect just like with Damen PKR, they still need some help on some modules. This I suspect where Babcock come.

I suspect this is not the Arrowhead 140 design that Babcock working as Type 31. That proposal seems beaten by Fincantieri FREMM. So I do suspect this is part of those two Iver Based Frigates from last term project, which they directly talking with Odense.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
I suspect this is not the Arrowhead 140 design that Babcock working as Type 31. That proposal seems beaten by Fincantieri FREMM. So I do suspect this is part of those two Iver Based Frigates from last term project, which they directly talking with Odense.
Sorry, what do you mean with the last alinea?
That Fincantieri has beat Babcock for the Type 31 program, or that the Iver Huitfeldt design acquisition is cancelled and that only Fincantieri will get a contract to deliver frigates to Indonesia?

Btw, did you already read the hilarious post of your idol?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
That Fincantieri has beat Babcock for the Type 31 program,
The Arrowhead 140 according to media including Jane's are facing competition with Naval Group FDI, Damen Sigma and Fincantieri FREMM. The result so far Fincantieri won. This's the program that supposedly follow on the two Damen Sigma PKR. This's supposedly become Van Speijks replacement.

While the two Iver based Frigates that being talked by PAL are from separate program from previous term. If we see the PAL sources and media (including Jane's), the two Iver based Frigates program run differently.

However whether then they're going to combine the program, after they choose FREMM, is something that not clear yet.

did you already read the hilarious post of your idol?
Yeah is not something new when he call DSME 1400 as unlicensed copy from U209. I think one of his job is to downgrade non Euro suppliers. You should see his article in CNBC Indonesia on off set. He's writing how French will be generous in off set deals compare to US that he claim more stingy on providing off set and tech transfer.

I believe his KPI (Key Performance Indicator) is how far he can influence public perspective for more positive on Euro suppliers. After all it's his bread and butter.
 
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