The remaining Maestrale were slightly modernised in 2007-10. Agreed, unless extensively modernised they'd be very outdated. Sensors, CMS, & the missiles are pretty much past it, but given the age of the hulls & machinery I'd be surprised if they'd get more than a quick basic modernisation so they can serve as gap fillers, to provide some capability until the FREMMs start entering service.
Indonesia: 'green water navy'
- Thread starter Supe
- Start date
If it is meant as a gap filler, say around 10 years, I don't expect an extensive modernization. The large complement (>200) is a function of the number of sub-systems and lack of automation. Removing (e.g VDS, Aspide SAMs) should reduce the operating expense. As for spares for the sensors, canabalising the sister ships seems to be the most cost effective choice since there is a large pool to work from.
Looks like Euro and Espero are the ones.
They aren't modernized. But they were transferred to Fincantieri in the past so probably they are already undergoing some modernization.
On the formula of how many built in Itali and how many built in Indonesia there is still difference in rumors between forums.(4+2 vs 3+3)
They aren't modernized. But they were transferred to Fincantieri in the past so probably they are already undergoing some modernization.
On the formula of how many built in Itali and how many built in Indonesia there is still difference in rumors between forums.(4+2 vs 3+3)
Providing maritime domain awareness through frigates & MPAs —Part 1
2. Indonesia and Singapore must find a way to develop closer cooperation to enhance deterrence — against a potentially hostile enemy navy. It would be great if trust between our countries can be built to the point in the future where the TNI AL is:
1. We don’t have to be hostile to China, but the South China Sea must not become a Chinese lake. The radar picture provided by 6 TNI AL FREMM frigates, deployed in rotation, will make a huge difference in maritime domain awareness.
2. Indonesia and Singapore must find a way to develop closer cooperation to enhance deterrence — against a potentially hostile enemy navy. It would be great if trust between our countries can be built to the point in the future where the TNI AL is:
(a) receiving data from a Singaporean UAV or a Fokker 50MPA and a TNI AL FREMM frigate is using that data received from a Singaporean source to form a tactical picture in the South China Sea; and
(b) sharing tactical data with the RSN, such that a 3,200 ton Formidable class frigate may be firing an Aster-15, based on data sent by a 6,700 ton TNI AL FREMM frigate.
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ChestnutTree
Active Member
I fear that unless the TNI, BAKAMLA, and the MoD build better cooperation with the RSN and the RAN (and the USN by extension), it simply will not have the ability to cover constant monitoring of Indonesia's waterways. The Philippines is currently wising up to the encroaching PLAN and has responded by buying the Jose Rizal class frigates as well as hopefully procuring more ex-USN Cyclone class OPV's on top of obtaining new built OPV's from Austal, while also cooperating with the JMSDF and the USN.
If Indonesia's neighbor with a fraction of its defense spending can make more realistic plans to protect its EEZ, I fail to see how Indonesia can't with it's supposed 1,7 Trillion IDR over 25 years while also being the supposed "Leader" of ASEAN.
If Indonesia's neighbor with a fraction of its defense spending can make more realistic plans to protect its EEZ, I fail to see how Indonesia can't with it's supposed 1,7 Trillion IDR over 25 years while also being the supposed "Leader" of ASEAN.
Providing maritime domain awareness through frigates & MPAs —Part 2
3. I would like Indonesia to adopt a customised Italian FREMM design with twin 76mm guns (rather than a single 127mm gun), that are ideal for a navy who needs to engage and sink 200 hostile fishing vessels, in a grey zone conflict that may turns ‘hot’, should any of these Chinese boats decide to start shooting at BAKAMLA vessels trying to arrest them. The more capable the TNI AL is, the less likely it has to shoot.
5. When a Chinese swam moves forward, it will take the combined efforts of 2 to 3 navies (from Indonesia, Singapore and Australia) to track these movements — to provide multiple direction naval over watch for BAKAMLA for maritime domain awareness. That way the Chinese coast guard will be deterred enough to avoid shooting in the 2030s.
6. The Aster missile family can provide an area defence — to protect BAKAMLA vessels from anti-ship missiles.
3. I would like Indonesia to adopt a customised Italian FREMM design with twin 76mm guns (rather than a single 127mm gun), that are ideal for a navy who needs to engage and sink 200 hostile fishing vessels, in a grey zone conflict that may turns ‘hot’, should any of these Chinese boats decide to start shooting at BAKAMLA vessels trying to arrest them. The more capable the TNI AL is, the less likely it has to shoot.
4. It’s a huge TNI AL maritime domain awareness challenge when the PLA(N), as part of its tactics, provides an over the horizon protection of the Chinese coast guard and 4 to 5 of its coast guard vessels have moved forward to protect a swam of 200 armed ‘Chinese fishing boats.’ I predict a lot of ramming of two to three BAKAMLA vessels, at each encounter, as part of China’s grey zone tactics in the South China Sea.
5. When a Chinese swam moves forward, it will take the combined efforts of 2 to 3 navies (from Indonesia, Singapore and Australia) to track these movements — to provide multiple direction naval over watch for BAKAMLA for maritime domain awareness. That way the Chinese coast guard will be deterred enough to avoid shooting in the 2030s.
6. The Aster missile family can provide an area defence — to protect BAKAMLA vessels from anti-ship missiles.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
I suspect it's also related to the progress of two Iver based Frigates that the preliminary contract has been signed last year. So far the only information come to public, is they're finishing the detail designed with the help from German and Turkish consultants. If this goes smoothly, they are planning to cut the steel by end of this year or early next.
Those two Frigate are different then what Babcock offer. Babcock offer with Naval Group FTI and MHI 30FFM supposedly facing Fincantieri FREMM on GP specs Frigates. This two rumours to be build more on AAW ones. Part of TNI-AL long awaited ambition (since 90's) for AAW specialised Frigates.
If that happens, I'm predicting toward 4+2 work share on FREMM as PAL will also being busy with 2 Iver based Frigates. Off course it could change if the plan additional Indonesian yard (possibly in Batam) will also involved.
I'm more concerned with the amount of Investment that being given to Bakamla as Indonesian Maritime constabulary agency. Their 110m and 80m OPV's has been proved so far can be build by those Batam's shipyards in relative fast time line and with economics pricing. It's so far shown enough capabilities for constabulary duties.
Even with Bakamla now run by ex Navy brass, seems there're some resistance from other Maritime agencies and including Navy to let Bakamla handle all maritime constabulary jurisdiction. That's should be the home work of this administration to strengthen it with more technical derivative law to enforce.
With Navy now going more on OPV's, Corvettes/Light Frigates, and Frigates make up, they should relegated most of their small sizes Patrol Boats to Bakamla.
If they got cunning and "ice" strengthened the Bakamla OPVs with extra ribs, stringers and thicker plating then they'll have a good chance of withstanding Chinese ramming and be capable of delivering a bit of medicine back.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
It is an old wish of TNI-AL to have 2 AAW-frigates. But the 2 SIGMA 10514 frigates with 12 MICA-VL and 6 Italian FREMMs with 16-cell MBDA SYLVER A50 VLS for 16 Aster 15 or Aster 30, far exceed the two Trompklasse frigates with Seasparrows in 1 Mk29 and 1 Mk13 launcher.
So i dont see the need of two additional Iver Huitfeldts.
I also wonder if it is possible with such a limited budget and a huge wishlist for TNI-AD, TNI-AL and TNI-AU.
ChestnutTree
Active Member
I feel it would just make much more sense to have 2 more FREMMs configured for AAW than it is to get a completely different hull. It's not like you can't simply refit certain equipment off a GP frigate with more AAW orientated equipment.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
The budget for that 2 Iver actually is the one that's been arranged since last term. Those USD 750 mio for two Iver based Frigates, that's been discussed before. However whether this budget already been set and allocated before (but not yet disburse), is something that I also want to know (but not get confirmation yet). We also don't know whether final calculation still USD 750 Mio as initially talk about, or not.
There's practice in budgeting for certain amount of budget that's been allocated, but carry forward on next year or period. I don't know for certain whether the budget for this two Iver based Frigates are treated that way.
Well, we don't know for certain that this Iver Project still on going. So far what come out shown MinDef and PAL still preparing for commencing the Project. In paper it should finance with unused portion from last term budget. However whether with this announcement of FREMM also means it will continue, we don't get official confirmation yet.
It could be, but so far the indication (eventough no official confirmation yet), the Fincantieri offer are for the multipurpose specs ones. The way I see it, this project is continuation of PKR Sigma 10514. When they hold the project after the first two being inducted, they're talking in media on reviewing the project continuation. This's part where Damen also coming with couple new variance like Omega or the enlarge Sigma 11415.
So the two Iver from beginning is set for different project altogether. The talk in local media or forums of those two will be for AAW Frigates, mostly based on Danish original Iver Class that have considerable AAW capabilities.
We still don't know the final design configuration, and even whether the project will be continue or not. At this moment after the leak on that budget draft, which create big drama. MinDef and TNI high command now on close tight lips mode. I understand their motives to reduce unnecessary political drama, but honestly it will not work. Defense is big business, and they can't close information from foreign suppliers.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
The Bakamla video shown the assault rifle come from ROK Dasan Machineries DSAR 15P. AR-15 based platform that according the their sites has been choose by several special forces squads.
The Sniper rifle also ROK Dasan DSSR 762. If they are getting more budget, there'll be some Politicians that going to talk why they're buying weapons that already build locally. Perhaps there's good thing to have small budget after all, you don't get enough attention to be mentioned.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
I put this only to shown Parliament visit to PAL, which in the meeting ask the progress on allotment fund from Government to PAL for upgrading their Submarine yard.
After all this Political attention being given to PAL Submarine Facilities, there will be difficult for any MinDef Submarine procurement that don't involve local production. This if done consistently means no turning back on submarine localisation involvement.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Hehe...i just 'discovered' the existence of the DSAR15P, after i found that some of these things are ordered for TNI-AD.
(You can see my post at the TNI-AD thread)
And yes, i also wonder why expensive foreign products have to be bought. I can not believe that Pindads assault rifles and machine guns are not good enough for BAKAMLA and that these foreign products are so much better that justifies the difference of costs.
Maybe you can shoot 25 meters further with it (just as an example) or slightly more accurate at 450 meter distance or it has a 150% more life time than Pindads products, but with such a limited budget and an obsolete and weak armed forces which can not patrol, guard and protect its own territory and EEZ in a sufficient way, you have spend your money in a proper way.
The next image is taken from PT PALs facebook site.
So the first Hospital ship is already at 92% of the construction process, and the second one at 40%.
Attachments
Speaking of hospital ships, the Indonesian Navy's hospital ships will be equipped with Terma SCANTER 6002 surface radar. This is the same radar selected for Australia's OPV. I'm a bit surprised by this since I don't expect Indonesian hospital ships to be so equipped. One hope that the older Makassar-class landing docks could be upgraded with this radar too since to the best of my knowledge the older LPDs are equipped with Furuno navigation radars.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
In Indonesia government procurement practices (not just in MinDef), the buyers and vendors can exercise what can be called 'preliminary contract's or some ministry called it 'technical contract's.
In sense it's already talking on the Investment amount of the contract, specifications of the procured assets, but not yet effective as there's still some precedent actions need to be taken.
The media already said that the contract has effective date by end of this year. This means if by end of this year, all the precedent actions specified in this preliminary contract has not yet effective, then the contract become void or has to be reinstated.
The precedent actions (condition precedent) including; financing scheme and workshare/offset agreement. Indonesian law dictate defense procurement from foreign sources has to involve either; counter trade agreement, or Offset/workshare agreement, or Tech Transfer agreement.
For example the previous contract with Russian on Su-35. It's included the counter trade agreement (as from what I gather, Russian not keen on offset and tech transfer). That's why the procurement Investment price has to be counter by Russian with their procurement of some Indonesian commodities. This which raise miss conception that Indonesia will paid the procurement with commodities. No the contract like any others will be paid by financial schemes, however Russian has also need to cover certain portion of the Procurement prices with their own commodities purchased.
That's why preliminary contract can still renegotiate, or stop in the process before can become effective contract. As example on Russian preliminary contract on Su-35, it is being delayed due to prolong negotiations on Russian counter trade deals. This added more with US CAATSA problem.
So under definition on Indonesian procurement practices, it's more than LOI or MOU stages. However not yet an effective contract stage.
Add:
The local media put it as Preliminary Contract only based on information that they got from some MinDef 'insiders'. There's no official announcement yet from MinDef for either Rafale or FREMM contract.
The problem with Condition Precedent/Precedent Actions, many of them are not under direct MinDef influence. Like Financing Schemes, it's more under 'Finance' people jurisdiction and not 'Defense' people/MinDef. The offset or tech transfer also has to be iron out by Foreign vendors with potential partner locally.
So whether they can sort it those conditions precedent out before December, that's remains to be seen. Su-35 preliminary contract is example how the sorting out condition precedent (in this case counter trade deals) taken years, at the same time that cause delay which make the timing falls into CAATSA.
If they can sort it out fast during 2016-2018, the contract timing will not face changes on Geopolitical situations.
Just to shown how condition precedent can make the deal falls into unresolved timing situation.
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Indonesia's procurement process leaves me baffled. Often they see to come up with an announcement that such and such ship or aircraft is about to be acquired and then nothing. What ever happened with the two Iver Huitfeldts that seemed on the verge of being ordered?
What ever came of their plans to buy the V-22 Osprey?
They talk about buying second hand Typhoons at the same time they are negotiating with the French to buy Rafales and the Russians to buy SU-35s.
It is all very confusing.
What ever came of their plans to buy the V-22 Osprey?
They talk about buying second hand Typhoons at the same time they are negotiating with the French to buy Rafales and the Russians to buy SU-35s.
It is all very confusing.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
As we can see in the posts in the Indonesian threads here of the last 6 years, you will find out that giving suddenly and proudly some sensational announcements about defence acquisitions of all different types of equipment, is more important for this administration than the procurement itself.
The largest projects of the SBY-era which had to continue (KF-X, SIGMA 10514 and second batch of Improved Chang Bogo/Nagapasa class) are all on hold (KF-X) or cancelled.
Most new large projects of the Jokowi-administration which have to come from abroad (with exception of the empty NASAMS and the two new German minehunters), like the Su-35, second hand EF2000s, second hand F122 Bremenclass frigate and MV-22B, stay in the stage of just being on the wishlist.
I also wonder how serious the plan is to order a submarine rescue ship. The Italian Ministry of Defence's (MOD's) naval armaments directorate has selected T. Mariotti to build and deliver the Italian Navy's new special and diving operations – submarine rescue ship (SDO-SuRS). Although its another shipyard than Fincantieri, it is probably more cost effective to add the order with the 6 FREMM + 2 Maestrale package now, than order it later, specially because the Italian MoD already ordered one, which makes construction of a second vessel cheaper.
Mariotti shipyard selected for Italy's new submarine rescue, dive support vessel
Genoa-based shipyard T.Mariotti has been selected by the Italian Ministry of Defence's (MOD's) naval armaments directorate to build and deliver the Italian Navy's new...
www.janes.com
Some people want to blame a single minister (the current Minister of Defence or the Minister of Finance for example), but this policy of hesitation, inability of making decisions and unwillingness to achieve real improvement and strengthening of the armed forces started already at the beginning of this administration, long before these two ministers were in office.
So your observation is correct.
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