Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Sandhi Yudha]

Almost no firepower, no deterrent effect, but still needed. The plan is to order a total of 12, probably to replace the old DDR-Frosch class, South-Korean Teluk Semangka class and some other old LSTs.

There seems to be two variants of the Teluk Bintuni Class, one 120 m x 18 m and one 117 m x 16 m. Is it correctly to say that the 120 m ones are built by PT Daya Radar Utama, and the smaller ones by PT Dok & Perkapalan Kodja Bahari and PT Bandar Abadi Shipyard?

Indonesia Commissions Third Teluk Bintuni-class LST - Naval News

The Indonesian Navy's (TNI-AL) Military Maritime Command (Kolinlamil) is ready to operate the Landing Ship Tank 'KRI Teluk Youtefa 522' which was comissionned by the Chief of Naval Staff (Kasal) Admiral Yudo Margono at Pondok Dayung Jetty, Tanjung Priok, North Jakarta, on July 12.

www.navalnews.com

A closer look at KRI Teluk Youtefa 522.

Lembaga Keris just posted something which seems to be from PT PAL. Without explanation it is not clear what its all about.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415164462005317633

 

[Ananda]

Lembaga Keris just posted something which seems to be from PT PAL. Without explanation it is not clear what its all about.

They (Kris FB) just want to shown that audited financial from PT. PAL already shown they already got order to build two Frigate at the amount of IDR 10.156 Trilion (+/- USD 725 Mio). So since this's claim from audited report number, then the order basically already a firm ones.

Thus this's why the FREMM workshare seems will 4+2, as PAL can only begin to build the FREMM
after their job on this two frigates concludes. Anyway you can predict what this two Frigates will be based on .

Jakarta approves plan to obtain USD600 million loan for interim submarine programme

The Indonesian Ministry of Finance (MoF) has granted approval for the country to obtain up to USD600 million in foreign loans to procure at least one second-hand...

www.janes.com

Now the local media and forums already talk similar packages like in FREMM. In sense build new, while getting second hand assets as stop gap. This can happen to Submarine deals or even Fighters. Thus this article from Jane's if true shown that kimd of stop gap thinking.

Just like in FREMM, the vendor that can provide the stop gap will also win the new procurement build contract. Now who'se vendor that can provide say +/-20 years old second hand Submarines ?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

They (Kris FB) just want to shown that audited financial from PT. PAL already shown they already got order to build two Frigate at the amount of IDR 10.156 Trilion (+/- USD 725 Mio). So since this's claim from audited report number, then the order basically already a firm ones.

Thus this's why the FREMM workshare seems will 4+2, as PAL can only begin to build the FREMM
after their job on this two frigates concludes. Anyway you can predict what this two Frigates will be based on .

Jakarta approves plan to obtain USD600 million loan for interim submarine programme

The Indonesian Ministry of Finance (MoF) has granted approval for the country to obtain up to USD600 million in foreign loans to procure at least one second-hand...

www.janes.com

Now the local media and forums already talk similar packages like in FREMM. In sense build new, while getting second hand assets as stop gap. This can happen to Submarine deals or even Fighters. Thus this article from Jane's if true shown that kimd of stop gap thinking.

Just like in FREMM, the vendor that can provide the stop gap will also win the new procurement build contract. Now who'se vendor that can provide say +/-20 years old second hand Submarines ?

So you expect the FREMM-order from Fincantieri will be 4+2 instead of 6+2?

About the $600 million for "at least 1 second hand submarine", with that amount you can buy 1,5 brand new ones, if we look to the second order of three Type 209/1400 Nagapasa class, that was around $1.200.000.000. Sadly this contract is cancelled by this amazing current administration.

Now who'se vendor that can provide say +/-20 years old second hand Submarines ?

I think your idol on Twitter wants to skip that question, because only Turkey and South-Korea will be the candidates to be able to provide around 20 years old submarines besides new ones, looking to their existing fleet.

Germany doesn't operate the Type 209 and they will keep their Type 212, and France doesnt operate the Scorpène or other conventional submarines.

 

[Ananda]

you expect the FREMM-order from Fincantieri will be 4+2 instead of 6+2?

6+2 ? The contract being announced for 6 FREMM not 8. So considering PAL will need at least 4 years to clear up the slip for those two Frigates, then their facilities can only be open for new slots 2026 onward at the soonest.

We don't see any new Investment for PAL facilities, so they can only done one Frigates at the time. Considering the time frame that MinDef wants, the most appropriate way to do it is to let Fincantieri do bigger portion of workshare, and get at least two (perhaps boat 5 & 6) build by PAL to satisfy the Tech Transfer process as stipulate in the law.

Germany doesn't operate the Type 209 and they will keep their Type 212, and France doesnt operate the Scorpène or other conventional submarines.

Yes, but the German has more export boats that some of them potentially will be let go (due to financial difficulty on the current owner or under replacement process).

Well this's just speculation, but yes, Turkey or ROK are ones that potentially can provide second hand stop gap Subs. Well perhaps that's why before TKMS partner with Turkey yard in potential Indonesian Project. Again all this just speculation due to this stop gap issue.

The number USD 600mio seems according to the article is 'up to' and means that the max line budget for acquiring and refurbishment of the stop gap boats. Also the Jane's article say they have no information on how many boats will be. However for me this article shown the stop gap approach just like with Fincantieri on Frigates will be used also in Submarine.

 

[Ananda]

https://www.facebook.com/181276675314017/posts/3813753515399630

From Kris FB. I actually has the original lay out download from PT. PAL sites. However too big to attach, thus good thing Kris FB already put on their page.

Why I'm shown the lay out, just to shown (especially for Indonesian enthusiasts), that PAL facilities are not that big. Some Indonesian forums, or media talking about how all Frigates or other Naval vessels should more be build domestically.

Now let's see PAL as the most ready local shipyards for Naval building. Even they have limited area and capacity. All Frigates size build usually handle in Semarang dry dock. Thus it's clearly shown they have only abilities to build one at a time. There are enclosed facilities with Naval Ships division (Divisi Kapal Perang), however at most it can handle toward +/-90m size vessels.

I wrote this as when I take a peek on Local forums and blogs, there are some comments that asking why FREMM building (if come to fruition) mostly being build in Italy ? Why not build most of them in local shipyards ? The law demand that.

However where to build ? So far only PAL that has experience and capabilities to build and doing weapon and system integration for Frigates size naval vessels.

This talk on building local defense Industry, talk on gaining more local independent for defense items, not only has to be based on sustainable procurement budgets, but also sustainable Investment in defense Industry infrastructure (hard and soft). Talk is cheap, however training the soft infrastructure (people) and building hard infrastructure, sometimes more expensive investment then the assets costs it self.

Can Local Commercial shiyards (especially in Batam) build Frigates sizes vessels ? Well I'm sure they can build the hulls and superstructure. However can they doing weapon and system integration for full fledge naval vessels ? That what I'm still have doubts. Now seems one commercial yard in Batam already got contract to build Naval OPV 90m. Let them got the learning curve for Patrol Ships and OPV. However it will be too soon to say they have the capabilities for overall build and integration for more complex Naval vessels. Just I have put before, there's no instant learning curve in any industry. Only fanboys that think a year of learning in other people facilities will be enough learning curve.

Even PAL still need a lot of foreign support, despite they are the most experience yard in Indonesia on doing Naval jobs. Sometimes I see many in Indonesia (whether as Public/official figures, journalists, and common publics), take too 'easy' thinking on how developing learning curve and how big the Investment needed for that.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://www.facebook.com/181276675314017/posts/3813753515399630

From Kris FB. I actually has the original lay out download from PT. PAL sites. However too big to attach, thus good thing Kris FB already put on their page.

Why I'm shown the lay out, just to shown (especially for Indonesian enthusiasts), that PAL facilities are not that big. Some Indonesian forums, or media talking about how all Frigates or other Naval vessels should more be build domestically.

Now let's see PAL as the most ready local shipyards for Naval building. Even they have limited area and capacity. All Frigates size build usually handle in Semarang dry dock. Thus it's clearly shown they have only abilities to build one at a time. There are enclosed facilities with Naval Ships division (Divisi Kapal Perang), however at most it can handle toward +/-90m size vessels.

I wrote this as when I take a peek on Local forums and blogs, there are some comments that asking why FREMM building (if come to fruition) mostly being build in Italy ? Why not build most of them in local shipyards ? The law demand that.

However where to build ? So far only PAL that has experience and capabilities to build and doing weapon and system integration for Frigates size naval vessels.

This talk on building local defense Industry, talk on gaining more local independent for defense items, not only has to be based on sustainable procurement budgets, but also sustainable Investment in defense Industry infrastructure (hard and soft). Talk is cheap, however training the soft infrastructure (people) and building hard infrastructure, sometimes more expensive investment then the assets costs it self.

Can Local Commercial shiyards (especially in Batam) build Frigates sizes vessels ? Well I'm sure they can build the hulls and superstructure. However can they doing weapon and system integration for full fledge naval vessels ? That what I'm still have doubts. Now seems one commercial yard in Batam already got contract to build Naval OPV 90m. Let them got the learning curve for Patrol Ships and OPV. However it will be too soon to say they have the capabilities for overall build and integration for more complex Naval vessels. Just I have put before, there's no instant learning curve in any industry. Only fanboys that think a year of learning in other people facilities will be enough learning curve.

Even PAL still need a lot of foreign support, despite they are the most experience yard in Indonesia on doing Naval jobs. Sometimes I see many in Indonesia (whether as Public/official figures, journalists, and common publics), take too 'easy' thinking on how developing learning curve and how big the Investment needed for that.

Thank you for sharing.

6+ 2 ? The contract being announced for 6 FREMM not 8.

Sorry, with 6+2 i mean 6 FREMMs and the two second hand Maestrale-class frigates.

Btw, do you know which commercial yard in Batam already got contract to build Naval OPV 90m?

 

[Ananda]

Sorry, with 6+2 i mean 6 FREMMs and the two second hand Maestrale-class frigates.

Well 4+2 that I meant is 4 build by Fincantieri and 2 build by PAL. I guess from Fincantieri sources seems it's what the workshare. Just like I wrote before, PAL can't do FREMM work anyway unless they already clear the slip for that Two Frigates contract they got last year.

That's why I put the lay out of PAL to shown they don't have capacities for more than one Frigate at a time (no pararel/simultaneously job capacity). Still many local fanboys adamant that PAL can do simultaneous Job for the vessels the size of Frigates.

do you know which commercial yard in Batam already got contract to build Naval OPV 90m?

In post #1755 previous page I already shown video of the OPV 90 models being test by BPPT Hydrodynamic center. The yards representative coming from Daya Radar Utama.

At least by test the model they already got the contract to prepare the testing stages. Whether this will in turn to production contract remain to be seen. However the local forums already state they got the production contract. I just don't see anything official yet. Still the local shipyards official contract rarely goes to media. Will just see the development.



Now this is from Terafulk website, the local designer company that on the move right know. The design for Tankers, LST, and Coast Guard OPV coming from them.

The pictures above shown an OPV/Corvette design. So don't discount the possibility that the OPV90 that the model being tested, base on that

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Well 4+2 that I meant is 4 build by Fincantieri and 2 build by PAL. I guess from Fincantieri sources seems it's what the workshare. Just like I wrote before, PAL can't do FREMM work anyway unless they already clear the slip for that Two Frigates contract they got last year.

That's why I put the lay out of PAL to shown they don't have capacities for more than one Frigate at a time (no pararel/simultaneously job capacity). Still many local fanboys adamant that PAL can do simultaneous Job for the vessels the size of Frigates.



In post #1755 previous page I already shown video of the OPV 90 models being test by BPPT Hydrodynamic center. The yards representative coming from Daya Radar Utama.

At least by test the model they already got the contract to prepare the testing stages. Whether this will in turn to production contract remain to be seen. However the local forums already state they got the production contract. I just don't see anything official yet. Still the local shipyards official contract rarely goes to media. Will just see the development.

View attachment 48336

Now this is from Terafulk website, the local designer company that on the move right know. The design for Tankers, LST, and Coast Guard OPV coming from them.

The pictures above shown an OPV/Corvette design. So don't discount the possibility that the OPV90 that the model being tested, base on that

My goodness, i completely forgot that video you posted here at #1755.

But it is good to know that shipyards like DRU, DPKB and Bandar Abadi only construct the ships, but the design is from a separate design bureau: Terafulk Megantara Design.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

They (Kris FB) just want to shown that audited financial from PT. PAL already shown they already got order to build two Frigate at the amount of IDR 10.156 Trilion (+/- USD 725 Mio). So since this's claim from audited report number, then the order basically already a firm ones.

Thus this's why the FREMM workshare seems will 4+2, as PAL can only begin to build the FREMM
after their job on this two frigates concludes. Anyway you can predict what this two Frigates will be based on .

Jakarta approves plan to obtain USD600 million loan for interim submarine programme

The Indonesian Ministry of Finance (MoF) has granted approval for the country to obtain up to USD600 million in foreign loans to procure at least one second-hand...

www.janes.com

Now the local media and forums already talk similar packages like in FREMM. In sense build new, while getting second hand assets as stop gap. This can happen to Submarine deals or even Fighters. Thus this article from Jane's if true shown that kimd of stop gap thinking.

Just like in FREMM, the vendor that can provide the stop gap will also win the new procurement build contract. Now who'se vendor that can provide say +/-20 years old second hand Submarines ?

It's an illusion that Indonesian variant of Iver Huidfeldt class frigate will use Sylver VLS and Aster missile. Paris won't issue export license for Jakarta if the equipment won't install onboard French made frigate or France-Italy FREMM. Indonesia been informed about this matter

Ive never heard before about this information. Or is it again some empty bullshit-fantasy story?
As the Oracle-on-Twitter-expert you certainly know this.

 

[Ananda]

Ive never heard before about this information. Or is it again some empty bullshit-fantasy story?

If French did not want to export their Sylver and Aster it will be their lost. Sylver already loosing out in export market to Mk-41, now this 'frenchie' sales agent saying this ?

For me I have a doubt on this Iver based Frigates Project by PAL will have Sylver and Aster, not because this babling. However more to the budget number. With budget of only USD +/- 720 mio for two vessels, then more likely it will have Mica VL. Having Mica or even Mica NG will be enough for GP frigate version. Well this Frenchie agent can't babling on French won't sell Mica VL for non French hull .

I sense this Iver Project as subsequent/continuation of Damen SIGMA PKR 10514. In sense it will be build for that role, but with larger hull. Most importantly with better deal gain by PAL from Odense then what Damen can give.



Just add this picture from MBDA site. Shown that Mica VL/VL NG doesn't need any VLS on Sylver class. Using their own cannisters already enough, as PKR shown. Getting 32 cannisters will be enough

 

[ChestnutTree]

That's just depressing. What is even the point (apart from the obvious project kickbacks) of procuring a hull the size of an Iver Huidtfelt yet only fitting them out as a GP frigate? So much wasted spaced IMO. would have made more sense to outfit the FREMMs that way and have 2 more FREMMS be outfitted with Aster. Would just be cheaper in the long run.

 

[Ananda]

What is even the point (apart from the obvious project kickbacks) of procuring a hull the size of an Iver Huidtfelt yet only fitting them out as a GP frigate?

There's always merit to get bigger hull, more space for fuel thus more patrol range for one thing. Also more space for further expansion on capabilities. Remember UK Type 31 which is based on Iver, basically also GP Frigates.

With that budget and if we see the potential price tag of that 6 FREMM of USD 4bio+ (don't counted the 2 ex Italian Navy Frigates, that basically free sweetener), means the two Iver based Frigates only can cover one FREMM. Thus clearly FREMM is for different capabilities building.

I just think with that amount of budget (USD 720 mio) for two ship, they can't create specialised equipped Frigates like FREMM. Seems the budget is part of budget that being prepared from last term. Could be the budget for PKR #4&5, that now being switch to this Iver based Frigates. Off course there's talks on two Iver using USD 700+ Mio budget. At the same time the progress of SIGMA PKR #4&5 being stalled. Knowing how finance people works, this I suspect they've switch the budget on PKR #4&5 from SIGMA to Iver based Frigates based.

PKR is nice enough GP Light Frigates, but with that size it doesn't have enough room for expansion in future. Using Iver based hull provide that. However my guess it also provide better commercial and learning curve for PAL on Frigates manufacturing.

If we think that this's just continuation of PKR program, then for me it's suitable enough. Just think it as Type 31 with Indonesian flavor.

 

[swerve]

That's just depressing. What is even the point (apart from the obvious project kickbacks) of procuring a hull the size of an Iver Huidtfelt yet only fitting them out as a GP frigate? So much wasted spaced IMO. would have made more sense to outfit the FREMMs that way and have 2 more FREMMS be outfitted with Aster. Would just be cheaper in the long run.

Better to have empty space than struggle to fit what you need, or want to upgrade later & hit physical limits. Consider the ANZAC frigates. Both the RAN & the more limited RNZN mid-life upgrades had to work around topweight issues, & IRRC the RAN ended up ballasting their ships, thus increasing draught & requiring the plating in of the formerly open quarterdeck.

It's an illusion that Indonesian variant of Iver Huidfeldt class frigate will use Sylver VLS and Aster missile. Paris won't issue export license for Jakarta if the equipment won't install onboard French made frigate or France-Italy FREMM. Indonesia been informed about this matter

France has exported Sylver to the UK to fit on UK designed & built ships, to Italy to fit on Italy designed & built ships other than FREMM, & with no French share (e.g. Cavour), some of them for export (to Algeria & Qatar) & has been very happy to sell VL Mica, Exocet, & other French weapons for fitting on ships designed & built in various countries, e.g. the Netherlands, Singapore, & the UK.

 

[Ananda]

France has exported Sylver to the UK to fit on UK designed & built ships, to Italy to fit on Italy designed & built ships other than FREMM, & with no French share (e.g. Cavour), some of them for export (to Algeria & Qatar) & has been very happy to sell VL Mica, Exocet, & other French weapons for fitting on ships designed & built in various countries, e.g. the Netherlands, Singapore, & the UK.

Just to add on Swerve excellent point, what do MBDA executive care if Naval Group does not get contract ? Because this's basically that French agent Twitter guy aiming for. Naval Group seems facing risk will not getting any large TNI-AL Projects. That's why he try to go back to his tactics on building negative expectations.

There are three major projects that seems going on with TNI-AL; Frigates, Light Frigates/GP/Corvettes, and Submarine. Naval group try to enter with FTI in Frigates, Gowind in Light Frigates, and Scorpene in Submarine. Frigates seems going to Fincantieri, Light Frigates/PKR Sigma continuation seems PAL going with this Iver based design, while Submarine still toss up but the Germans coming strong.

Back to Missiles, MBDA executive knows they have loyal customer with TNI-AL. Will they want to risk it and gave it to say Raytheon because some Agent sulking cause Naval Group loosing out ? What business logic on that ?

The USD 720 Mio budget (base on that PAL report from Kris FB) like I post before, will not be enough for Sylver+Aster30 thus will not be enough for the Raytheon alternative of Mk-41+SM-2. Thus his arguments on Sylver+Aster-30 in this Iver Based Frigates is moot point anyway.

However the budget should be enough for VL Mica/NG+ Canister launch or ESSM+Mk-58. If they (MBDA) being told (as he blabing claim) on holding out missile deals, then TNI-AL can go to Raytheon and make MBDA risk loosing out to one of their loyal long term customers. Do this sound like logical business thinking ?

MBDA now try to gain more customers from Raytheon, are they want to loosing out existing loyal customers to Raytheon ?

That's why I say on my previous posts this tweeter guy getting ridicelous on some of his tweet, especially related to his bread and butter deal with Frenchie. I just wait on his tweet that Indonesia will not get Raytheon missile on the class of Aster 30 (in this case SM-2) or Mk-41 VLS. Thus the only choice is to get Aster-30+Sylver, and that means giving Naval Group some Projects.

Then we can see some Indonesian enthusiasts eating this up, and believe his babling... Put it on media and try to get Public opinion pressure.

 

[ChestnutTree]

I legitimately forgot that the fit out of the Type 31's only has CAMM and does not include Aster or SM-2/3. In either case, I just hope that they would do something beneficial with the Iver Huidtfelts. In retrospect having more Type 31 derived hulls would be a good replacement for the SIGMAs.

France has exported Sylver to the UK to fit on UK designed & built ships, to Italy to fit on Italy designed & built ships other than FREMM, & with no French share (e.g. Cavour), some of them for export (to Algeria & Qatar) & has been very happy to sell VL Mica, Exocet, & other French weapons for fitting on ships designed & built in various countries, e.g. the Netherlands, Singapore, & the UK.

Looking at it again it is pretty stupid to think that Paris would simply give up a contract that is potentially worth hundreds of millions if not billions in total lifetime costs just because one of their primes did not get a share of the defense budget pie.

 

[Ananda]

I just hope that they would do something beneficial with the Iver Huidtfelts. In retrospect having more Type 31 derived hulls would be a good replacement for the SIGMAs

With USD +/-360mio per vessel, if they can only slightly increase the armament from PKR Sigma 10514, it's already good enough. If they can have 24 VL Mica (from 12 in PKR), same number of 8 SSM, double the millennium gun as CIWS, use same OTO 76mm, and similar ASuW suites and armament, it's already enough.

I'm bit laughing when reading what contract that PAL got for those two Iver based Frigates. It's the same USD +/-720mio that's been talk from last term MinDef. Thus it will not be more than type 31. While before the local forums talk about specialised AAW Frigates for Indonesian Iver based (just as what I put in my previous post). Well AAW Specialised Frigates is very expensive, even more expensive then what Bergamini FREMM that seems Indonesia order will be.

For me as Finance guy, just look on the budget. Check how the cost of assets that can be procured with that limit. Thus if we look on how much the costs on latest AAW build, at least you need USD 1bio to build one. Or if you go with minimum specs AAW Frigates, at least you need that USD 720 Mio for just one vessels.

I have big doubt that this term (that's until 2024), this administration can commit more than USD 20-21 bio for all three services foreign procurement line. As being said by Bapenas Head in media. Simply no money they can commit more, and I explain bit below.

With what happen to Indonesia Economics (and Global economy over all), it will at best take the whole next year to be recovering. That's why this administration try to get 70% population vaccinated by end this year (although from what I heard it's more likely 50% of population however 70% Java, Madura and Bali population). That window is very small. Thus there's a risk by first Half of 2022, some area in Indonesia still has to handle COVID problem.

Thus any amount that they already committed in media for defense equipment procurement on this term, probably will not much differ with realisation. That's why I always put more emphasis on the 'finance' guys said rather then what 'defense' guys saying. The 'defense' guys can put their plan, but the 'finance' guys which will say how much of their plan can come to realisation.

For that more budget for defense procurement outside what 'finance' people already committed in media, will be highly Political sensitive. Even that USD +/-20bio foreign credit line already got some negative reactions from some opposition economist.

So with that budget, getting Fincantieri FREMM, couple Iver based Frigates, some Submarines (of coastal base type), some OPV plus some support vessels, it will be in my opinion the best they can put on Contract, within that budget limitations.

Just to put more realistic expectations on Indonesian defense procurement within the rest of this administration term. For next term, well lets see what happens with economy and whoever win the next term.

Add:
Off course it can be different if some defense contract being tied up with Investment Projects from one Investors nation. For that watch what Japan will do. They still can provide surprise tied up on Investment schemes. As Bankers, I have seen many times Japanese doing unexpected move if they're really aiming on something.

 

[Ananda]

Jakarta approves plan to obtain USD600 million loan for interim submarine programme

The Indonesian Ministry of Finance (MoF) has granted approval for the country to obtain up to USD600 million in foreign loans to procure at least one second-hand...

www.janes.com

Related to this on previous post before, something that quite interesting that being posted by Kris FB.



This according to Kris FB coming from PAL presentation to Parliament Members last June. What I'm going to point out is that they (PAL) still working on basic capabilities assumption:

1. One batch of three (just like DSME 1400) before,​

2. One vessels at a time for manufacturing stage, (not like some Enthusiasts claim that they can work two at pararel)​

3. It take 5 years completions to build one.​

So they're still using capabilities assumption of existing infrastructure. Means that they don't expect any new manufacturing infrastructure Investment, then from what they already have at this moment.

They also put assumption that any new Submarine after five years operational, need to go back to them for MRO job.

This's quite Important in my opinion to build sustainable operational environment. They still put Nanggala MRO schedule by 2021, which by their schedule actually already late. Thus can TNI-AL be consistent on this MRO schedule for the future ? I think they shown that to Parliament members just for Political factions understand operating Submarine is not just matter of procurement.

Related to plan of Interim Submarine, if we see the schedule of manufacturing, I suspect the interim Submarine at least has to be operational until 2035 when the third batch (Subs #7-9) already operational. For that they need to be in good condition at least for 15 years.

If that so, this indicating that they need to find vendors that can provide +/-20 years age Subs at most for this second hand Interim boats. I don't know which vendors that can provide that, however the vendors that can provide this second hand Subs, most likely will become PAL partner for this second batch Submarine manufacturing program.

This off course if they still want to have this interim Subs as Jane's article indicating.

 

[OPSSG]

Q: Will the TNI AL ever consider approaching Singapore for a second hand submarine?

Not that there is any news on that front. This is to satisfy my curiosity on how the TNI AL sees its threat matrix.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Jakarta approves plan to obtain USD600 million loan for interim submarine programme

The Indonesian Ministry of Finance (MoF) has granted approval for the country to obtain up to USD600 million in foreign loans to procure at least one second-hand...

www.janes.com

Related to this on previous post before, something that quite interesting that being posted by Kris FB.

View attachment 48342

This according to Kris FB coming from PAL presentation to Parliament Members last June. What I'm going to point out is that they (PAL) still working on basic capabilities assumption:

1. One batch of three (just like DSME 1400) before,​

2. One vessels at a time for manufacturing stage, (not like some Enthusiasts claim that they can work two at pararel)​

3. It take 5 years completions to build one.​

So they're still using capabilities assumption of existing infrastructure. Means that they don't expect any new manufacturing infrastructure Investment, then from what they already have at this moment.

They also put assumption that any new Submarine after five years operational, need to go back to them for MRO job.

This's quite Important in my opinion to build sustainable operational environment. They still put Nanggala MRO schedule by 2021, which by their schedule actually already late. Thus can TNI-AL be consistent on this MRO schedule for the future ? I think they shown that to Parliament members just for Political factions understand operating Submarine is not just matter of procurement.

Related to plan of Interim Submarine, if we see the schedule of manufacturing, I suspect the interim Submarine at least has to be operational until 2035 when the third batch (Subs #7-9) already operational. For that they need to be in good condition at least for 15 years.

If that so, this indicating that they need to find vendors that can provide +/-20 years age Subs at most for this second hand Interim boats. I don't know which vendors that can provide that, however the vendors that can provide this second hand Subs, most likely will become PAL partner for this second batch Submarine manufacturing program.

This off course if they still want to have this interim Subs as Jane's article indicating.

Looking to this overview, i got the feeling this is a real old overview. Not only this is from before April this year, but even before the name of KRI Alugoro 405 was given.

One vessels at a time for manufacturing stage, (not like some Enthusiasts claim that they can work two at pararel)

Its even three submarines at the same moment!


Some bonusphotos of KRI Sultan Iskandar Muda 367 in the waters of Libanon.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1416620193221021699

 

[Ananda]

Not that there is any news on that front. This is to satisfy my curiosity on how the TNI AL sees its threat matrix.

I think at this moment on this Interim Subs, they're looking on the need for TNI-AL and optimisation for PAL tech partners. In sense politically they have to shown whoever that provide second hand Subs has to provide benefits to PAL.

Combination of Local Industrial and TNI needs seems at least that this administration and Political factions in Parliament shown publicly as priority. The procurement of second hand assets must related to benefits for new assets and local Industry as whole.

We can see this on FREMM Fincantieri procurement plan. Interim Frigates coming from Fincantieri as vendors, while the vendors also provide work share and tech transfer project with PAL as Local Industry on the new FREMM manufacturing.

I sense that patern that will happen not only to Submarine project but also even Fighters project. This patern will satisfied the need for interim immediate assets, local Industry development and acquisition of new assets for end game as Politically being put, second hand assets should be avoided and only procured with certain condition.

They will try find vendors that can provide similar with what Fincantieri provide in FREMM deals. If say SAAB approach MinDef with this kind of deal, and they are offering ex Singapore SAAB build submarine, perhaps what you're questioning can happen.

So, back to the deal patern, seems MinDef and TNI doesn't really matter from which the second hand assets coming from. However more to what the vendors can provide. There's rumours in local forums and media that TKMS approach MinDef to get second batch Submarine work with PAL, by providing SAN 209-1400. This's due to some news SAN want to let go their Subs in order to find fund to operate their Frigates.

Again is all just rumours, but looking at the patern that being put with Fincantieri, there's big probability many other contracts will follow the similar contract patern.