Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[OPSSG]

Some stray thoughts for your consideration (Part 2)

should be able to house 32 VLS (either Sylver or Mk 41) for either Aster 30 or SM-3.

9. For me, Aster 15 (range in excess of 30 km) or even the SM-2 Block III is more than enough as an area defence missile for an escort group. Due to global demand, Raytheon has restarted its SM-2 missile line after halting production in 2013. Various countries aligned requirements and pooled resources to make a bundle purchase through foreign military sales, enabling Raytheon to resume production. The company is reconfiguring and modernizing its SM-2 missile factory to increase production efficiencies. It has also signed new agreements with several suppliers.

10. If TNI-AL chooses the Aster 30, then they should get the Aster 30 Block 1NT, with a new seeker operating in Ka band, replacing the current Ku band, to deal with N. Korean missiles (as a remote risk to guard against). But that's a little over kill for the TNI-AL, given its budget.

11. IMHO, it's the selection of a top of the line the multi-function radar (MFR) that is important for the larger surface combatant - important to spend as much as the TNI-AL can afford. I have a strong preference for the Sea Fire 500 (with the first system manufactured in 2018 and qualified in 2020 for the French Navy’s FTI programme). The Sea Fire radar uses long-range 3D surveillance, horizon search and surface surveillance capabilities to provide early warning of potential attacks from conventional and emerging air and surface threats. I would recommend that TNI-AL evaluate this MFR (or the NS-200 - a family of radars selected by Netherlands and Singapore), to tap on the hot production line that is still running in 2020, to follow on from orders to Thales.

Thus why PRK, Corvettes, and 40m-60m missile boats/patrol boats seems more on the planning.

12. I think, a mix of each of the PKR and a class of patrol vessel is fine. For example, the KCR-60M-class fast attack craft built by state-owned shipbuilder PT PAL. Powered by two MTU 20V 4000 M73L diesel engines, this 60m vessel can attain a maximum speed of 28 kt and a maximum range of 2,400 n miles at 20 kt. With its full crew complement of 43, the vessel has an endurance of nine days. The KCR-60M was originally conceived by Indonesian defence planners as a 'hit-and-run' platform that could swiftly deploy guided anti-ship missiles against larger surface combatants, before quickly receding into the archipelagic background. IMHO, the navy should get out of operating and building 40m vessels. The navy should not have vessels that have sea legs that are too poor to operate in bad weather.

this administration also plan to have more robust coast guard to handle constabulary duties. Thus more white hulls OPV are being constructed. The Batam's shipyards so far already shown they are able to produce 80m-110m OPV's for Coast Guard in relative short time and quite efficiently.

13. OPVs for the Coast Guard is much needed - I have visited some shipyards there in my younger days. This is a reality for our region.

But this seems for me, put the Navy on 'awkard' possition. In sense they still building those 30m, 40m and 60m patrol boats, which only good for mostly constabularie duties. As seems the Navy still reluctant to hand over those duties to Coast Guard.

14. I would prefer that TNI-AL stick to 1 type for patrol vessel, for ease of training, support and career paths for naval officer ship commands (i.e. to increase professionalism in the TNI-AL).

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Some stray thoughts for your consideration (Part 2)

9. For me, Aster 15 (range in excess of 30 km) or even the SM-2 Block III is more than enough as an area defence missile for an escort group. Due to global demand, Raytheon has restarted its SM-2 missile line after halting production in 2013. Various countries aligned requirements and pooled resources to make a bundle purchase through foreign military sales, enabling Raytheon to resume production. The company is reconfiguring and modernizing its SM-2 missile factory to increase production efficiencies. It has also signed new agreements with several suppliers.

10. If TNI-AL chooses the Aster 30, then they should get the Aster 30 Block 1NT, with a new seeker operating in Ka band, replacing the current Ku band, to deal with N. Korean missiles (as a remote risk to guard against). But that's a little over kill for the TNI-AL, given its budget.

11. IMHO, it's the selection of a top of the line the multi-function radar (MFR) that is important for the larger surface combatant - important to spend as much as the TNI-AL can afford. I have a strong preference for the Sea Fire 500 (with the first system manufactured in 2018 and qualified in 2020 for the French Navy’s FTI programme). The Sea Fire radar uses long-range 3D surveillance, horizon search and surface surveillance capabilities to provide early warning of potential attacks from conventional and emerging air and surface threats. I would recommend that TNI-AL evaluate this MFR (or the NS-200 - a family of radars selected by Netherlands and Singapore), to tap on the hot production line that is still running in 2020, to follow on from orders to Thales.

12. I think, a mix of each of the PKR and a class of patrol vessel is fine. For example, the KCR-60M-class fast attack craft built by state-owned shipbuilder PT PAL. Powered by two MTU 20V 4000 M73L diesel engines, this 60m vessel can attain a maximum speed of 28 kt and a maximum range of 2,400 n miles at 20 kt. With its full crew complement of 43, the vessel has an endurance of nine days. The KCR-60M was originally conceived by Indonesian defence planners as a 'hit-and-run' platform that could swiftly deploy guided anti-ship missiles against larger surface combatants, before quickly receding into the archipelagic background. IMHO, the navy should get out of operating and building 40m vessels. The navy should not have vessels that have sea legs that are too poor to operate in bad weather.

13. OPVs for the Coast Guard is much needed - I have visited some shipyards there in my younger days. This is a reality for our region.

14. I would prefer that TNI-AL stick to 1 type for patrol vessel, for ease of training, support and career paths for naval officer ship commands (i.e. to increase professionalism in the TNI-AL).

Reading your two posts, i would say that you have great ideas.....but sadly our navy doesn't have such a great budget.
Im already happy with 6 SIGMA 10514 frigates as a replacement for the six Achmad Yani/Van Speijk klasse frigates, of course fully armed ones (with Oerlikon Millennium CIWS, MICAs, torpedos and MM40 Block III) and not in a toothless fitted-for-but-not-with configuration, which is totally useless if the situation get serious.

Aster 15s are great, but looking to the pathetic air defence capabilities from TNI-AL now (just some Mistrals), the MICA is already an incredible improvement. Also the Hollandse Signaal SMART-S Mk2 is the best radar we ever got.

The KCR-60 is a nice project, armed with anti-ship missiles and decent CIWS air defence, they are good replacements for the Parchim I class of corvettes.
Our territorial sea area is so huge, so with such a limited budget 40 meters patrol boats are still necessary.

Dreaming about 140-150 meters heavy frigates/destroyers with ASTER 30 and high-end radars is just unrealistic. If our government will order some of them, then they will be of course in a fitted-for-but-not-with configuration, just looking great on 5 Oktober, but useless in war.

So lets focus first on arming the Nakhoda Ragam/Bung Tomo class with some VL MICA, and adding four SIGMA 10514 frigates, that should be possible and realistic, if there is the political willingness for it!

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

OPSSG, on this I'm going to be 'cautiously' optimistic. True there's long term plan for Naval Improvement on the Navy, but the problem in Indonesia is always in the Implementation.

The current MEF was the brainchild on two 'civilian' Defense Minister from Previous Admin, which also took much elements of defense planning from Soeharto era. Despite all it's short givings, many of current Indonesian projects can be trace to Soeharto regime long term planning, including the 'now' trending items in Indonesia, the Trans Java and Trans Sumatra 'Toll' highways.

Back to the Navy, from late 80's and 90's, PAL and Navy already put plan for building infrastructure for Submarine and 'Light Frigates' program. On that time, the Submarines plan was 209 based and Light Frigate was Fincantieri design based on their 2400 ton Lupo class light Frigate. There are also other projects including locally build LST, LPD, Multipurpose Replanishment Ships, Mine Hunters, and off course Patrol vessels.

The down fall of Soeharto and Economics crisis put this on hold. Later on in SBY regime, the plan being revamped as part of MEF (minimum essential force).
However there always 'tempatation' on implementation. Like Submarine procurement that being 'coloured' by insistence on some factions in Mindef and Parliamentary for Kilo that being procured not through local manufacturing as being planned.

Luckily for Submarine the factions that put 'sanity' check on procurement seems so far prevailed, which then submarine plan being procured as part of long term plan of submarine development and manufacture program that being put since Soeharto era.

............................................

Asia's Submarine Powerhouse You Might Not Know About

Just add, this article. This article writer bring some plan of 12 subs for TNI-AL. This plan already circulated on Indonesia Forums and Media.
But again, the detail is changing from time to time. From SBY era, infact from Soeharto era, the Navy already have plans to get back to 12 strong subs as in Soekarno era. Then again the implementation that always changing.

In Soeharto era in the 80's, the first two type 209, supposedly being followed by 4 other type 209, with plan 2 of them being build in German and other 2 in Surabaya. Then due to budget and other issue (including calculation of building manufacture facility in PAL), it's being put on hold.
Then in 90's to speed up the submarine learning cycle, it's plan to buy second hand 6 German type 206. This then to prepared the crew for Submarine development. Financial crisis put this on hold, even tough Indonesian crew already in German to train with 206.

Then in SBY era, the plan for more 209 also being prepared, however this time to get to #12 more faster, the are also talk to get either new build Kilo or second hand ones. Luckily those Kilo's plan can be put asside, and back to 209 development plan.

With the 209 being used as batch 1 and 2 (of 3 subs on each batch), the talk now on batch 3 & 4. This talk on batch of 3 & 4 being type 214 in my opinion the writer read too much in Indonesian forum or Media.
Since no talk on what going to be in Batch 3 & 4 (as part of example on how Indonesian defense plan always put in general and not even on what 'specs' of submarine will be) officially being put.

Will have to see on how in the end this's going to end up on batch 3&4 (if they ever be batch 3&4).

End '90s....I still remember those plans....
- Buying 4-6 old small obsolete ugly Type 206 subs.
- Plan to buy the 2 Geleide Wapen Fregatten/Tromp Klasse fregates
- Plan for buying one of the Project 1174 Ivan Rogov Landing Ships..(wasn't it the Mitrofan Moskalenko?)



Btw, i found something interesting about some old LSTs....
"On Saturday 15 September 2012 KRI Teluk Bone and another World War II-era LST the KRI Teluk Bone (exs USS Presque Isle APB-44) participated in the commemorative sail Morotai in order to remember the Allied World War II operation landing in Morotai, 15 September 1944. Both ships participated in the original on 15 September 1944 as a part of the Allied expeditionary force." Source: USS Iredell County (LST-839) - Wikipedia

For pictures: KRI Teluk Bone 511: Terlibat Dua Momen Pendaratan Amfibi Bersejarah – Indomiliter.com

 

[Ananda]

Aster 15s are great, but looking to the pathetic air defence capabilities from TNI-AL now (just some Mistrals), the MICA is already an incredible improvement. Also the Hollandse Signaal SMART-S Mk2 is the best radar we ever got.

The KCR-60 is a nice project, armed with anti-ship missiles and decent CIWS air defence, they are good replacements for the Parchim I class of corvettes.
Our territorial sea area is so huge, so with such a limited budget 40 meters patrol boats are still necessary.

Dreaming about 140-150 meters heavy frigates/destroyers with ASTER 30 and high-end radars is just unrealistic. If our government will order some of them, then they will be of course in a fitted-for-but-not-with configuration, just looking great on 5 Oktober, but useless in war.

So lets focus first on arming the Nakhoda Ragam/Bung Tomo class with some VL MICA, and adding four SIGMA 10514 frigates, that should be possible and realistic, if there is the political willingness for it!

Ahh..you already put comment on OPSSG 2nd thought. Well what OPSSG put is the 'ideal' assessment on what TNI-AL should build in order to be effective on regional 'challanges' in near future.

Although in basic I agree with you, but on the nature of 'budget', I have different perspective. From what I gather when talking with guys from Finance Ministry or Bapenas, the problem of defense procurement lately is not only in the 'budget' but as I put on my previous post, many in the implementation on budget.

In sense, when you want to procure something, Finance Ministry will ask your procurement time table, detail specs of asset, contractual assessment, etc.
That basic Finance assessment on any procurement, even in private sector. However when they have to clear this, many of paper works is not done properly cause the contracts also not done properly. This then have to be take it back and redone, which in many occasions make some of the budget allocated in certain year has to be carries over to next year.

In short the way they exercise and Implementations on the long term plan also caused many delays on their procurement projects.
This in the conditions of no changes in plan, but sometimes the procurement process also being delayed cause there's changes on asset specs or even the asset submitted to procure.

Look at VSHORAAD as example, we have VSHORAAD from ROK, China, Poland, British, MBDA, heck I sometimes think TNI want to collect all VSHORAAD in the market.
This's due to individual parts of Armed Force can not agree on standardisation. Which this should be the job of Min-Def to standardise. Those conditions also can create changes on asset being submitted.

To become effective Modern Navy or even Armed Forces, they need to change they way they are doing strategic planning. The way they doing it until now, any changes in top brass can alter the asset being processed thus can sidelined the implementation of the planning.

If your budget is not enough, but if you have 'solid' implementation steps..then you can divide and extend your procurement plan on multiple years time table. This is what the Finance ministry want.. prepared on medium and long term procurement steps..and not just one year budget implementation.

Look at PKR, it's OK actually if you build your vessels as 'fited but not equipped with' kind of procurement..as long as you have multi years Implementation time able on progressive equipment procurement. This can give you more solid contract with your supplier. Also will able to lock up 'cost' in the front. Something that Bapenas or Finance Ministry demand them (Mindef/TNI) to do, but (as I heard) not being done by them in disciplined way.

Back to Full Frigate specs, They so far already got budget of USD 750 mio for two 'full sized' Frigate and from what I heard also cleared of additional USD 375 mio (if not mistaken) for PKR #3 and 4.
With that price range, you can be sure the PKR 3&4 and Full Frigate 1&2 will not be full specs. But it will be again 'fitted but not equipped with' kind of specs.
This in line with their practice of buying weapons system seperately.

For me, I'm more interested in implementation on that budget. There are rumours that PKR 3&4 will be cancelled and the money going to Full Frigate 1&2. So that's what I more concerned with. Changing implementation on planning.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Ahh..you already put comment on OPSSG 2nd thought. Well what OPSSG put is the 'ideal' assessment on what TNI-AL should build in order to be effective on regional 'challanges' in near future.

Although in basic I agree with you, but on the nature of 'budget', I have different perspective. From what I gather when talking with guys from Finance Ministry or Bapenas, the problem of defense procurement lately is not only in the 'budget' but as I put on my previous post, many in the implementation on budget.

.............

Look at VSHORAAD as example, we have VSHORAAD from ROK, China, Poland, British, MBDA, heck I sometimes think TNI want to collect all VSHORAAD in the market.
This's due to individual parts of Armed Force can not agree on standardisation. Which this should be the job of Min-Def to standardise. Those conditions also can create changes on asset being submitted.

To become effective Modern Navy or even Armed Forces, they need to change they way they are doing strategic planning. The way they doing it until now, any changes in top brass can alter the asset being processed thus can sidelined the implementation of the planning.

If your budget is not enough, but if you have 'solid' implementation steps..then you can divide and extend your procurement plan on multiple years time table. This is what the Finance ministry want.. prepared on medium and long term procurement steps..and not just one year budget implementation.

.........
.

Thank you for your explanation, and im totally agree with you!
Chiron, QW-3, Grom, Starstreak, Mistral....and the RBS-70!
The NASAMS acquisition is also a joke, we only have 36 AIM-120C-7 missiles for all our F-16s and these NASAMS launchers....
But yes, its a very impressive collection!

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia introduces long-term contracting guidelines | Jane's 360

This is good progress (if being done consistently and with good disciplined). If done properly this will change how defense procurement being conducted.

Just like proper procurement activity in developed nation, this means procurement will be done with proper study and planning, including from beginning has to focus on what kind of asset specs being submitted and not just a 'general' idea of assets that being plan.

The Indonesian White Books and MEF is on general direction only. This long term budget planning should has been developed in line with MEF, as part in more detail and focus procurement plan. However as usual in Indonesia, the improvement in implementation process takes longer time to execute.

Well better late then never, but for me this is good improvement initiative if being conducted properly. This will reduce potential 'poor planning' procurement which usually ended up with questionable asset.

 

[Ananda]

PT PAL cuts first steel for Indonesian Navy’s second hospital ship | Jane's 360

Another hospital ships based on Makasar class LPD. With this, it's going to be the third one in Indonesian Navy, but second one from PAL. The first one still build by DaeSun.

PAL so far has market their LPD based design for multipurpose function from dedicated LPD, MRSS, Hospital ships and from what I read, they also prepared design for Command ships.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

PT PAL cuts first steel for Indonesian Navy’s second hospital ship | Jane's 360

Another hospital ships based on Makasar class LPD. With this, it's going to be the third one in Indonesian Navy, but second one from PAL. The first one still build by DaeSun.

PAL so far has market their LPD based design for multipurpose function from dedicated LPD, MRSS, Hospital ships and from what I read, they also prepared design for Command ships.

- So..the first one was KRK Teluk Ende 517
- Then KRI Soeharso 990 (which was KRI Tanjung Dalpele 972)
- Then we get the temporarily Hospital ship KRI Semarang 594.
- And now we will get an amphibious ship purpose built as a hospital ship. It seems this one is also more complete equipped than KRI Soeharso.

That means KRI Semarang 594 will become a standard LPD, right?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Remarkable news, it seems that PT PAL has signed a contract with a foreign company to build components for a nuclear powerplant.
PT.PAL INDONESIA(Persero)

 

[Ananda]

Remarkable news, it seems that PT PAL has signed a contract with a foreign company to build components for a nuclear powerplant.
PT.PAL INDONESIA(Persero)

From what I read, the agreement is to build 'floating power plant'. So I'm sceptical that PAL going to involve on manufacturing parts of nuclear reactor, but I suspect PAL will involve in building the 'floating parts'..which mean build the ship that going to house the power plant.

The Russian has proposed the floating nuclear power plant to be used in eastern Indonesia at SBY Era..If not mistaken the Governor of Gorontalo that quite 'enthusiastic' with the deal. However no follow on for the Russian offer.

Back to this deal, for me the question is on Thorium Reactor technology it self. I believe this is the technology that are not mature yet. I believe no commercial Thorium power plant that operate yet.
I know, many nuclear community in Indonesia quite supporting on Thorium. Considering there are more Thorium reserve in Indonesia than Uranium. Thorium supposedly will provide much less radioactive waste, thus in long run should be cheaper to maintain. Theoritically it also provide more efficient fission reactive chain thus should be more commercially viable.

But then again, all still in developing stages. So I don't know how feasible this company claim on building commercial Thorium Reactor.
Well will see..

 

[tonnyc]

Remarkable news, it seems that PT PAL has signed a contract with a foreign company to build components for a nuclear powerplant.
PT.PAL INDONESIA(Persero)

It's a Memorandum of Understanding, not a contract. It's contingent on the government permitting a 1:1 scale model, non-nuclear test-bed platform to be built. I personally think there's no reason to deny the test bed platform since it's non-nuclear (Thorcon plans on using externally heated molten salt to simulate a running molten salt reactor). However, the test bed platform will then be examined by BATAN (the national nuclear energy agency) and BAPETEN (the national nuclear regulatory agency) with consultation with the International Atomic Energy Agency. If they say it's safe and license it then we'll see a private effort to build a nuclear power plant in Indonesia separate from BATAN's own research program. If they say it's not good enough, then well, it's pretty much a one-off for something similar to an oil rig.

@Ananda While the aim is to eventually use thorium, initially they will use uranium. This isn't a secret but neither do they say this unless asked. Rest assured that the relevant people in the relevant ministries know about it though. Heck, I'm not connected to anyone at all and I know about it. The idea is to slowly migrate toward thorium. Thorcon claims that the reactor design can run on either(*), and that while thorium is preferred, right now there is no industrial supplier of thorium anywhere because there is no industrial demand for it. All the thorium producers in the world are geared for supplying research labs, not an industrial user. So they argue that rather than waiting for thorium, start with uranium first and then migrate toward thorium later.

(*)The physics and chemistry are actually a bit more complex than just saying dual-use, but let's just say that it's generally feasible.

PS: Personally I think that the "floating" part is unnecessary expense. We have a good map of the earthquake risk zones thanks to decades of geologic surveys and we know which region is risky and which region is stable. We could build on the stable zones and avoid the extra expense, but if that's what it takes to get it going politically, then fine.

 

[Ananda]

Thanks Tonnyc for the clarification. I don't have any objections personally And I'm going to be part of citizens that full support Nuclear power in Indonesia.
Simply because in long run it can provide more environmental benefit and economics compared to coal and gas.

Thorium has many potential benefit compared to Uranium, and it's perhaps right moved to get involved with Thorium in the end. It's just the article talking on building one..which I know no commercial Thorium Reactor now in the market. So thanks on your clarification.

Indonesia allocates USD143 million for two naval hydrographic vessels | Jane's 360

Just add the article from Jane's on two hydrographic vessels that can also double as Submarine rescue.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL) took delivery of its fourth KCR-60M missile attack craft on 25 July.

Article at Indonesian Navy commissions fourth KCR-60M attack craft | Jane's 360

So i wonder how complete this fourth KCR-60M is, all the sensors, weaponsystems and control systems already installed, or as usual in fitted-for-but-not-with-and-thus-toothless configuration?

Also the name KCR-60M, it sounds like its a modified version of a normal KCR-60...whats the backgroundstory of this?

 

[ChestnutTree]

It's supposedly a modification of the older KCR-60 design. A stronger crane and hull is part of the new design from what I've heard along with better propulsion.

 

[tonnyc]

The Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL) took delivery of its fourth KCR-60M missile attack craft on 25 July.

Article at Indonesian Navy commissions fourth KCR-60M attack craft | Jane's 360

So i wonder how complete this fourth KCR-60M is, all the sensors, weaponsystems and control systems already installed, or as usual in fitted-for-but-not-with-and-thus-toothless configuration?

Also the name KCR-60M, it sounds like its a modified version of a normal KCR-60...whats the backgroundstory of this?

That vessel was launched in February 2018 and "completed" (as in FFBNW) in July 2018. Ergo this acceptance implies that the sensors, control systems, etc is installed.

Edit: corrected the above using data from Indomiliter's article. This is weird. Terma's control system paired with C-705? Is that possible?

 

[ChestnutTree]

I do recall an article somewhere saying that they eventually plan on replacing the C-705's with something else due to unsatisfactory performance.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia takes delivery of four Fast Attack Craft KCR-60M ships

Navy Recognition put not only Terms CMS but also Scanter radar, C-Fire electro optical fire system..this means those KCR used whole Terma suits.

I don't know if this is for the second batch or including the first batch..since Indonesians forums and media already shown the first batch of 3 used Chinese electronics and sensors and Chinese CIWS.

If this includes those 3 of first batch..means it's retrofitted with Terma's systems.
That's means the the experiments with Chinese system did not goes well.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Like Ananda and ChestnutTree already said, all the chinese missiles are already removed from these boats, and starting from the second batch (boat 3 and 4), Terma systems will be installed.
Please correct me if im wrong.

 

[Ananda]

Like Ananda and ChestnutTree already said, all the chinese missiles are already removed from these boats, and starting from the second batch (boat 3 and 4), Terma systems will be installed.
Please correct me if im wrong.

Well that's what Navy Recognition article put..the whole KCR's 60 according to that using Terma systems from CMS, Radars, Firing control, decoys..

It's good thing they'are using Terma systems..seems PAL making some sort of agreement with Terma considering this means the whole systems now standardize with one supplier.

As for the missiles, the box in the fourth boat seems still same with before, which according to Navy is for C-705.
So let see on the missile..

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Yes, Terma also proudly announce this on their website.
Terma Awarded Contract for Complete C-Series Combat Suite for Indonesian KCR-60 Vessels

But according to them the packages are for upgrading two vessels and for two new build ones.