Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

Wasn't the plan for C-705 licence manufacturing cancelled, because of the impressive performance during live fire exercises?

The licensing plan already cancelled some time ago. What they have now is consortium to reverse engineering C705.

Simak, Capaian Menhan Prabowo di 2023 & Rencana Program di Tahun 2024

Selama menjabat menhan, Prabowo telah menunjukkan kinerja yang sangat baik dalam sejumlah bidang.

www.cnbcindonesia.com

Sistem rudal nasional termasuk menjadi perhatian pemerintah, masuk dalam progam pembinaan potensi teknologi dan industri pertahanan. Dikerjakan konsorsium BUMN dan swasta terdiri dari: PT Dirgantara Indonesia, PT LEN Industri (Persero), PT Pindad, PT Dahana, PT Aero Terra Indonesia, PT Mulia Laksana Adhitama dan PT Infoglobal Teknologi Semesta.

CNBC Indonesia put article on what's the program in 23 and still on going on 24. Thus the ambition for National Missile program still on going. They're still part of overall national program. However seems they're also preparing other venues to get missiles partnerships. Rumours say now they are getting more progress on guidance system, however still not satisfactory enough of local propellants burning thrusts. Or perhaps the other way around.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The licensing plan already cancelled some time ago. What they have now is consortium to reverse engineering C705.

Simak, Capaian Menhan Prabowo di 2023 & Rencana Program di Tahun 2024

Selama menjabat menhan, Prabowo telah menunjukkan kinerja yang sangat baik dalam sejumlah bidang.

www.cnbcindonesia.com

CNBC Indonesia put article on what's the program in 23 and still on going on 24. Thus the ambition for National Missile program still on going. They're still part of overall national program. However seems they're also preparing other venues to get missiles partnerships. Rumours say now they are getting more progress on guidance system, however still not satisfactory enough of local propellants burning thrusts. Or perhaps the other way around.

Thank you for sharing.
I wonder how long TNI-AL want to continue operating the C-802 on the Ahmad Yani Class frigates and the C-705 on some smaller vessels. No information is available from open sources about the amounts ordered and delivered.

 

[Ananda]

wonder how long TNI-AL want to continue operating the C-802 on the Ahmad Yani Class frigates and the C-705 on some smaller vessels.

There's several speculations on the numbers, but I suspect won't be much. Just like Russian Yakhont, C-802 and even C-705 being purchase on initial batch as trial part first. Thus why the procurement of Atmaca as 1st batch already 45 (which for Indonesia quite committed number), I suspect shown another facet of deal behind.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1750783316079284602

Turkish defense media talk potential overall deal of 300. If that's true, it is shown potential license partnership. Just like IPTN done with AEG on SUT torpedoes in the 90's. Who knows that reverse engineering C705 now going to use Roketsan as partner. Thus whether licensing ATMACA or use their tech to help MinDef missile reverse engineering programs, Just got indication Roketsan got more projects then just selling ATMACA.

 

[Ananda]

Last week news, only have time to put it here. This is the design of Corvette that basically derived from previous VIP Corvette Bung Karno that's being launch last year. The design now being talk by some enthusiasts as the one that're going to be the replacement for Parchim Corvette (instead OPV 90).

I do suspect MinDef and TNI-AL going to use both OPV 90 and this Corvette designs for Parchim replacement. Simply because it is the design that seems can be replicate by local shipyards. Basically both can be consider as OPV and Corvettes. Economically enough on budget to produces in numbers.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

View attachment 51098

Last week news, only have time to put it here. This is the design of Corvette that basically derived from previous VIP Corvette Bung Karno that's being launch last year. The design now being talk by some enthusiasts as the one that're going to be the replacement for Parchim Corvette (instead OPV 90).

I do suspect MinDef and TNI-AL going to use both OPV 90 and this Corvette designs for Parchim replacement. Simply because it is the design that seems can be replicate by local shipyards. Basically both can be consider as OPV and Corvettes. Economically enough on budget to produces in numbers.

The Kapitan Pattimura vessels are ASW-Corvettes, because of this to be decent replacements those OPV-90s and/or those so called 'missile corvettes' should be at least as capable.

Decades ago PAL built the German designed FPB-57 Mk.II class with Signaal PHS-32 sonars, so these days something similar but larger should be possible.

 

[Ananda]

Kapitan Pattimura vessels are ASW-Corvettes, because of this to be decent replacements those OPV-90s and/or those so called 'missile corvettes' should be at least as capable.

In real condition from what I see, those Parchim mostly being used as OPV. Still retrofit those OPV 90 and Corvettes designs with decent sonar should not be big problem, as you have mentioned. They're being build seems for patrol duties with GP capabilities.

Anyway:

Noahtu Shipyard

noahtushipyard.com

Noahtu shipyard site already update what seems latest development of their OPV 90 progress.

They're under media scrutiny as some 'defense insiders' talk about their job progress on OPV 90, in problematic condition. Some accused of management miss handling that even compare to Malaysian Boulstead shipyard problem.

So far though they are still on contract with other jobs like LST and Tug Boats. Thus seems they are now putting the progress on the OPV in their sites as 'public' information update. For that I do still see that MinDef will evaluate both designs as Parchim replacement as TNI-AL main Patrol forces.

Add:

Jalin Kerjasama Dengan Produsen Kapal Internasional, Kasal Terima Courtesy Call CEO Fincantieri

Bisnismetro.id, JAKARTA — Komitmen dalam menjalin hubungan kerjasama yang baik dengan mitra kerja TNI Angkatan Laut (TNI AL), Kepala Staf Angkatan Laut (Kasal) Laksamana TNI Dr. Muhammad Ali menerima Courtesy Call dengan Mr. Dario Deste, CEO dari Fincantieri, perusahaan kapal asal Italia yang...

bisnismetro.id

CEO Fincantieri conduct courtesy business call with Indonesian Navy Chief. We know Fincantieri has offer FREMM, which potentially Indonesian will switch it to PPA. However knowing Indonesian procurement politics, nothing is certain until a contract effective in payment.

Quite interesting this article talk about Fincantieri already choose Noahtu Shipyard as partner in Indonesia. Whether they are helping Noahtu in design or Noahtu become manufacturing yard in Indonesia, remain to be seen. However if Noahtu become production partner, then meand Fincantieri design will be manufactured in Noahtu Yard to meet Indonesian Procurement politics of domestication.

 

[Ananda]

An Indonesian defense enthusiasts X account id yudisupri_454 put old 1962 dutch newspapers article on Indonesian W class submarine infiltration. This infiltration also already confirmed by TNI-AL historical record.

The X account owner claim that the Dutch Neptune only shooting flares toward Indonesian submarine as part of agreement between Dutch and Indonesia under UN Observations monitoring. However as Indonesian Navy disclose historical record, also talk about those W Submarines being partly crewed by Soviet Submariners. This because with short time in acquiring those W Submarines, TNI-AL has not trained enough submariners at that time.

For that I do suspect the US already warn the Dutch on Soviet personels in Indonesian Submarines. Something I suspect why the Dutch also takin precautions on directly engaging Indonesian Submarines. Will be interesting to see how Dutch going to react toward those Submarines if they begin attacking Dutch fleets in Holandia (current Jayapura) sea lines.

Something that I do believe not in the interest of US domino theory on SEA. Part why US in the end push Dutch to basically remove their presence on Western New Guinea/ West Papua.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Two new 28 meter long patrolboats are commissioned by TNI-AL, the KAL Sembulungan II-5-42 dan KAL Hinako I-2-19.

Yes, these are small patrolboats with only a Yugoimport M71/08 20 mm main gun and two 12,7 mm machineguns, but looking to their future stations, these two will be mostly used for short range patrols.
The first one will be stationed at Pangkalan TNI Angkatan Laut (Naval Base) Banyuwangi, the second one at Lanal Nias.

https://www.tnial.mil.id/berita/68049/DUA-KAL-28-METER-PRODUKSI-ANAK-BANGSA-RESMI-PERKUAT-TNI-AL/

 

[Ananda]

Big chance that the Scorpènes also will be chosen

@Sandhi Yudha I like to comment on your post on Scorpene in this thread as more appropriate.

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This interview close a month old. In here CEO of PT. PAL in the interview stated that DSME 1400 Batch 2 is not dead yet. They are now in renegotiation with DSME (now Hanwha Ocean) on Tech Transfer deal. If you look on complete interview, PAL CEO state that they want bigger domestication. However they will decide soon.

I put it now as seems there are rumours potentially DSME will counter NG offer on domestication process.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1759719983138132212

Tweeter guy seems alarmed as his project with DSME not as secure in probability yet. Anyway for me the question of domestication is related to PAL existing facilities. If they choose to work with DSME, they don't have facilities to build NG Submarine together. Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but I just don't see the facilities can build 209 1400 and Scorpene together.

All this seems indicating by next month there will be decision on next batch of Indonesian Submarines program.

 

[Meriv90]

I think we found a way to finance your FREMM

Fincantieri si allea con Abu Dhabi per un business da 30 miliardi

Joint venture negli Emirati arabi con il Gruppo Edge (agli italiani il 49% del sodalizio) per creare una piattaforma della cantieristica navale di dimensioni globali

www.ilsole24ore.com

Fincantieri | EDGE group e Fincantieri avviano una joint venture che creerà un business da 30 miliardi

www.fincantieri.com

By creating a JV with the EAU that are going to put in the financing.

 

[Ananda]

Or PPA, seems eventough the intention for FREMM not gone, but PPA got more attraction from MinDef on their latest media flow. Agree, that agreement will increase attractiveness of Fincantieri packaging.

 

[Ananda]

This interview close a month old. In here CEO of PT. PAL in the interview stated that DSME 1400 Batch 2 is not dead yet. They are now in renegotiation with DSME (now Hanwha Ocean) on Tech Transfer deal. If you look on complete interview, PAL CEO state that they want bigger domestication. However they will decide soon

PT PAL Indonesia Menapak Asa Kemandirian Industri Maritim Pertahanan - JEO Kompas.com

Keberpihakan Presiden Joko Widodo dan Menteri Pertahanan Prabowo Subianto jadi kunci gerak laju industri pertahanan nasional ini dalam tiga tahun terakhir.

jeo.kompas.com

Add PAL CEO talk in Kompas digital newspaper confirming that they are still doing renegotiation with DSME/Hanwha Ocean for DSME 209-1400. The article stared few projects that PAL doing. Asside the 209-1400 submarine, it is also put the progress on Arrowhead 140 derivative (Red-White Frigate):

When Kompas.com visited the PT PAL Indonesia shipyard, the progress of the Red and White Frigate was that 58 blocks of the total 161 blocks had been worked on to build this ship.

"The target, April has been placed in the graving dock , it will be erected there," said Djoned.

The sensor, weapon, communication and control systems of the ship's sensor, weapon and command or sewaco systems are currently in the renegotiation stage to obtain the actual ToT.

"If our CMS buys blocks without ToT, we don't know whether there is a backdoor . (Then), can we guarantee that orders won't leak?" asked Djoned.

I put quote from the article, but if the english bit funny, because it is Google translate. The point is they are one-third way on completing the Blocks, and as predicted, they will move the blocks begin next April for assembly in Graving Dock.

They also in talk to have total code access on CMS and all sensors. Thus this is why there's still negotiations whether going to use Thales base system or Havelsan base system. Arrowhead 140 base design use Thales, but Indonesian MinDef through Defend ID (Indonesian SOE MIC Holding Company), want to have complete systems access. This is why I find Euro OEM Salesmen in Indonesia begin bit black campaign on Turkiye product in online and reguler Media.

 

[Ananda]

Singapore Airshow 2024: Indonesia proposes delaying AEW&C programme to fund frigates

The Indonesian Ministry of Defense (MoD) has submitted a proposal to the country's Ministry of Finance, requesting to cancel the foreign loan approvals allocated for an...

www.janes.com

This is already been talk and rumours circulating in Indonesian forums and enthusiasts Blogs (including tweeter guy). The rumours that MinDef ask MoF to cancel 15-16 Procurement Fund allocations. This means MinDef going to sacrifice up to 16 projects for Frigates Procurement.

The allocation actualy call procurement of Frigates of FREMM types or similar. Which's now seems being rumours switch to PPA, or combo PPA and FREMM. This means after AF got Rafale, most their other procurement plan in this term being switch for Navy Frigates. All that project being switch, potentially being forward to next term. Off course again priorities can be changes.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Singapore Airshow 2024: Indonesia proposes delaying AEW&C programme to fund frigates

The Indonesian Ministry of Defense (MoD) has submitted a proposal to the country's Ministry of Finance, requesting to cancel the foreign loan approvals allocated for an...

www.janes.com

This is already been talk and rumours circulating in Indonesian forums and enthusiasts Blogs (including tweeter guy). The rumours that MinDef ask MoF to cancel 15-16 Procurement Fund allocations. This means MinDef going to sacrifice up to 16 projects for Frigates Procurement.

The allocation actualy call procurement of Frigates of FREMM types or similar. Which's now seems being rumours switch to PPA, or combo PPA and FREMM. This means after AF got Rafale, most their other procurement plan in this term being switch for Navy Frigates. All that project being switch, potentially being forward to next term. Off course again priorities can be changes.

|"Instead, the MoD wants these allocations to be diverted to a long-delayed effort to equip the Indonesian Navy with Frégate Européenne Multi-Mission (FREMM) frigates, according to a 9 December 2023 letter between the two ministries."|

Reading this part, it looks like they want to stay with the FREMM.


|"The 15 other programmes, for which approvals to take on foreign loans were granted, include a USD144 million plan to procure VL MICA anti-air missiles, presumably for the Martadinata-class frigates, and a USD48 million initiative to acquire self-propelled air-defence artillery systems"|

So from the 31 procurement programs, these 15 will continue and not getting cancelled, right?

 

[Ananda]

Tweeter guy already talk about this switch on programs funding for couples of months. This talk happen after Jokowi take final decision on credit line financing, from proposed USD 34 bio to back to USD 25 bio for this term.

Detail of which 16 projects going to be switch the funding to the Frigates has not been available yet. However those Jane's quote and Tweeter guy talk, has focus on AEW budget. As AEW budget is seems the biggest from those 16 project get switch. VL MICA already been procured, so I'm not sure if Jane's talk on another batch of VL MICA. It's supposed to get into 2 PKR Sigma 10513 (Martadinata class) and 3 Ex Nahkoda Ragam (Bung Tomo class), with each of 12 VL MICA cells. Thus supposedly 60 VL MICA cells, and I don't know for sure if all already procured or only by batches.

from the 31 procurement programs, these 15 will continue and not getting cancelled, right?

Yes 15 will continue, and 16 will be switch for FREMM or Similar Frigates (because that actually what MoF put "Pembiayaan PLN untuk Frigate FREMM atau sejenis"). Question will be which ones, as details not set to close yet.

One thing for sure for Fincantieri, whether FREMM or PPA, I believe will not matter much. However so far they're enough indication that Indonesia want to get at least 2 PPA (as I put the link again):

Kasal: PPA Fincantieri bakal jadi fregat terpanjang AL jika dibeli RI

Kepala Staf TNI Angkatan Laut Laksamana TNI Muhammad Ali mengatakan kapal patroli lepas pantai multifungsi (PPA/OPV) kelas Thaon di Revel buatan ...

www.google.com

Switching financing line not as easy as some Indonesian enthusiasts in online forums and media think. When MoF already agree for credit financing line, means they already talk with potential creditors, asses on credit terms, and more likely already negotiate the financing line availability. Thus if it is going to switch, they have to negotiate with new creditors and potentially has to weight which credit terms they deemed suitable with overall multi years budgets.

Thus even though the talk between MinDef and Fincantieri is for 6 FREMM before, MoF can potentially not going to switch all 16 projects, if the term for Fincantieri frigate not suitable for all 6. They can potentially agree for financing line only for 4 frigate instead 6 for example. Thus means some of the 16 projects not all being switch. Because again it's back to talk with creditors (of previous 16 projects or Fincantieri project ones).

Still they have to come to decisions soon, as by April (budget book close), they have to put on the book what's procurement line going to be set.

 

[Ananda]

this seems indicating by next month there will be decision on next batch of Indonesian Submarines program.

Indonesia begins contract negotiations for two Scorpene Evolved submarines

Representatives from French shipbuilder Naval Group have arrived in Jakarta to begin contract negotiations for two lithium ion batteries-equipped Scorpene Evolved...

www.janes.com

Jane's put info that Indonesia and French seems already reaching final stage of the deal for 2 Scorpene built in PT. PAL facility. The negotiations now reach financing negotiation. Just like in Rafale deal, most of the credit line financing will come from French sides. Mostly related to French Government. Even the portion related to commercial creditor, I suspect like in Rafale will be taking by French Financial Institutions (FI).

This shown how French already prepare the packages. Compare to Asian new comers in defence market like ROK and Japan, seems their FI eventough in the book has stronger base (especially the Japanese ones), they are not seems inclined yet to support their MIC exports.

put it now as seems there are rumours potentially DSME will counter NG offer on domestication process.

Will this means 2nd batch of DSME/Hanwha Ocean already side asside, or they will be two seperate deal. For one thing, Prabowo presentation that already circulating online (already put in this thread), talking on two seperate Submarine categorization. Smaller tactical submarine and larger strategic submarine. Will see how that develops, however even they only manage to seal the deal for Scorpene manufacturing, it is already huge steps for Indonesian Industry. NG offer similar deal that Brazil now conducting for 4 Scorpene build domestically.

 

[Meriv90]

https://edgegroup.ae/news/edge-group-and-shipbuilding-giant-fincantieri-launch-multi-billion-euro-joint-venture

More info on the, very probably, EAU middleman job.

 

[Ananda]

This actually part of video when Prabowo last month visit PAL to see progress on Red-White Frigate. Seems someone makes photo on the Frigate SEWACO plan, and circulating online.

Base on this picture alone some clues can be seen on the plan SEWACO for this Arrowhead 140 derivatives.

1. The multifunction radar seems shown similarities with Leonardo Kronos Fixed array, similar in PPA, KRONOS Dual Band
2. Main 76mm and auxiliary gun also shown come from Leonardo products line,
3. CIWS seems indicating Millennial Gun, similar with what already been use as point defense in SIGMA PKR light frigate,
4. However fire control radar seems similar with Aselsan products, as the missiles also shown similarities with Roketsan products ATMACA SSM and Hisar family AAM.

So if the missile is Roketsan, most likely the VLS going to be Aselsan MIDLAS VLS. This is supposedly the ongoing contention between Aselsan and Roketsan products vs Thales and MBDA ones and also MIDLAS vs Sylver VLS.

However if the pictures above is going to be final SEWACO, then Aselsan/Roketsan seems going to be winner, against Thales and MBDA.

Despite many Indonesian enthusiasts/fan boys hope for the later one. However if Hisar going to be the winner of Indonesian Mid-Long range land based Area defense missiles program (call Trisula), then understandable MinDef wants Hisar Naval be the area defense in Warships.

Thus why the Tweeter guy as Euro Salesman, always talk in media that Turkiye products has:
1. Unproven track record,
2. Problem in export financing.
Thus he's part of campaign to wages public perceptions war to help sway the deal back to Thales and MBDA instead Turkiye competitors.

Will see how this is going, as Missiles and VLS is part of FFBNW. However main the guns and CIWS, from my understanding are part of initial manufacturing contract. So only Leonardo contract in SEWACO that's seems more or less secure.

 

[koxinga]

1. The multifunction radar seems shown similarities with Leonardo Kronos Fixed array, similar in PPA, KRONOS Dual Band
2. Main 76mm and auxiliary gun also shown come from Leonardo products line,
3. CIWS seems indicating Millennial Gun, similar with what already been use as point defense in SIGMA PKR light frigate,
4. However fire control radar seems similar with Aselsan products, as the missiles also shown similarities with Roketsan products ATMACA SSM and Hisar family AAM.

The surveillance radar looks like an Aselsan CENK 3D AESA radar, while the FCRs look like Aselsan's AKREP-D. The primary mast design is similar to the ARES-2N platform that you see on the Istanbul class frigate. As for the CIWS, it looked like a Aselsan Gokdeniz (the FC sensors can be off mounted).

There is a strong Turkish flavor. But like you say, maybe they are still fighting behind the scenes.

 

[Ananda]

The primary mast design is similar to the ARES-2N platform that you see on the Istanbul class frigate.

Yes, seems there's similarities with ARES platform. However I also see similarities with Kronos as they put picture of Kronos on PPA in the multifunction radar insert (on the circle).



I suspect even with contention between Aselsan-Roketsan vs Thales- MBDA packages, Leonardo seems the ones that being indicate already secure their portion on overall SEWACO packages.