Indian Missiles & Nuclear Development News and Discussions

[aaaditya]

Re: Agni-III missile to be test-fired by year-end

agni uses solid fuel check bharatrakshak.com they have recently upgraded the indian missiles page and have detailed information of all agni variants.india had recently successfully tested a 10 ton cryogenic stage which it is claimes performed superior to the russian one(india has 8 of them on e of which had already been used on a gslv ,the first application of the indian cryogenic engine would be on the indigenous gslv.cryogenic technology is not available in the market so you cant steal it or purchase it(usa blocked the sale of russian cryogenic tech to india). :coffee

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Agni-III missile to be test-fired by year-end

Cryogenics is the science of the super-cooled. Cryogen means super-cooled. Therefore, Cryogenic fuels are those fuels that are super-cooled. Examples include liquid Hydrogen and liquid Oxygen. These elements have to be be cooled to temperatures way below zero to become liquid, and storing them safely is a difficulty. But this super-cooling increases their performance by a steep margin and makes up for the storage difficulties ! Most Space Launch Vehicles are propelled by Cryogenic Boosters. So, I think this technology should find a vacant gap to occupy in the Indian missile arsenal, i.e- Agni-III and Surya-I ICBM !

Vrus when you say that "Cryogenics is the science of the super-cooled" i think this is the same science usend in the mission going to the space like in the manned and unmanned vahicles cooling of gases decreases the density of the gases and in the combustion chamber it gives maximum benifits to take the mass to the space.
I think you have heard that much more fuel is required to take 1kg of mass to the space so in this manner the mass of the space ship is the first priority and every thing is viewed closely what to take and what to not.
So i think the same technology is used to develop the ICBMS i think for the shorter distances it will be really stupid to do this , spend a lot of money and resources to hit the neighbouring nation.

 

[vrus]

Re: Agni-III missile to be test-fired by year-end

I suppose you are right kashif. There is very little point in wasting money to super-cool and contain fuel for short-range rockets. But if you can use liquids, reduce density and thus decrease weight, then it might be possible to increase the payload ?

Thinking about the density question, x volume of liquid fuel will probably have less MASS then x volume of solid fuel if it is the same element !!! So u might be able to increase the payload !!!

Speaking of
Bharatrakshak says that Agni-III can be launched from road, rail and SUBMARINE. Is that true ? It also says that A-3 has 2.5 stages. What does HALF a stage mean ?

But apparently payload is only 800-1800 kg. I was hopinng it would be more .

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Agni-III missile to be test-fired by year-end

I suppose you are right kashif. There is very little point in wasting money to super-cool and contain fuel for short-range rockets. But if you can use liquids, reduce density and thus decrease weight, then it might be possible to increase the payload ?

Thinking about the density question, x volume of liquid fuel will probably have less MASS then x volume of solid fuel if it is the same element !!! So u might be able to increase the payload !!!

Speaking of
Bharatrakshak says that Agni-III can be launched from road, rail and SUBMARINE. Is that true ? It also says that A-3 has 2.5 stages. What does HALF a stage mean ?

But apparently payload is only 800-1800 kg. I was hopinng it would be more .

I think Vrus that when a gas is compressed into a liquid the volume of the gas decreases e.g from 100 to 1 and when if you want to compress the liquid into the solid it will require more effort and i think it will be aldo difficult to use caz >>>then to convert to liquid before combustion the i think the liquid phase is good.
yeah there are right there are mobile launchers for missiles but for that much range there may be needed a launch pad of some other facilities for the launch and for the guidance of the missile i think this thing may be possible for the small range missiles . It could be launched when on the road but when on the train i think its difficult to fire guide and all that stuff you know the newton's laws "To every action there is an oposite and equal reaction if the missile is fired at an angle of 90 degree it may go right but when the angle is different then any thing can go wrong posibly. And when the question arises that it may be launched from the submarine i think that the short range nuclear missiles are suitable caz your A-3 has a size of a submarine how can it be launched from the submarine i think you are mistaken i will confirm in this matter
I meaning of that is this the A-3 missile size is equal to a submarine then the submarine muct be carrying a single missile that is A-3 now can you under stand mate let me confirm this then i will tell you

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Agni-III missile to be test-fired by year-end

The 800-1800 kg nuclear payload can make a major difference

 

[vrus]

Re: Agni-III missile to be test-fired by year-end

I think Vrus that when a gas is compressed into a liquid the volume of the gas decreases e.g from 100 to 1 and when if you want to compress the liquid into the solid it will require more effort and i think it will be aldo difficult to use caz >>>then to convert to liquid before combustion the i think the liquid phase is good.
yeah there are right there are mobile launchers for missiles but for that much range there may be needed a launch pad of some other facilities for the launch and for the guidance of the missile i think this thing may be possible for the small range missiles . It could be launched when on the road but when on the train i think its difficult to fire guide and all that stuff you know the newton's laws "To every action there is an oposite and equal reaction if the missile is fired at an angle of 90 degree it may go right but when the angle is different then any thing can go wrong posibly. And when the question arises that it may be launched from the submarine i think that the short range nuclear missiles are suitable caz your A-3 has a size of a submarine how can it be launched from the submarine i think you are mistaken i will confirm in this matter

I don't understand what you are trying to say.
Please re-phrase it .

The website says it can be launched from a submarine.

 

[vrus]

Re: Agni-III missile to be test-fired by year-end

I was hoping the payload capacity would be more than 1800 kg. And I was only saying what was on the website about the A-3 being submarine launch capable !

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Agni-III missile to be test-fired by year-end

I was hoping the payload capacity would be more than 1800 kg. And I was only saying what was on the website about the A-3 being submarine launch capable !

how can a submarine can fire Agni 3 because the size of agni is too long to get into a submarine

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Agni-III missile to be test-fired by year-end

well kashif agni-3 is just 13 metres in length(36.9 feet) and 1.8 metres in diameter .these type of missiles are generally launched in the vls modes and not from torpedo tubes as some cruise missiles ,the submarines which generally carry these missiles are ssbn's or ssgn's and they can comfortably carry and fire these missiles.indian kilo class subs are 72.6 meters in length,9.9 metres in beam and 6.6 metres in draught and will not be capable of carrying these missiles(as they would require a major modification),however what india can do is to develop a ssbn variant of it's atv or a stretched variant of its new conventional subs so that they can carry and fire these missiles if this is not possible,they can shorten the missiles while increasing its diametre. :coffee chinese df-31 icbm is 10 ms in length and 2 ms in diametre,df-5 is 33ms in length. and 3.4 m in dia,df-4 is 28ms in length and 2.25ms in dia :coffee unfortunately could not find dimensions of chinese jl1 and jl2 submarine launched missiles .check www.sinodefence.com

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Agni-III missile to be test-fired by year-end

if you check out the table in the bharat rakshak missile armoury page the lencgth of agni2 is given as 20m and dia as 1m whereas that of agni3 and 4 as 13 and 15 m respectively and dia of 1.8 m. chinese jl1 has a range of 1700 kms and warhead mass of 600kgs it's length is 10.7m and dia is 1.4 m,jl2 is 10+m in length and 2m in dia range is 8000kms and warhead mass is 700kgs.iam tired from all this typing so i will post more information in my next posts(dimensions of various nuke subs) :coffee

 

[vrus]

Re: Agni-III missile to be test-fired by year-end

There are submarines specifically specaialised for launching ballistic missiles right ?

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Agni-III missile to be test-fired by year-end

There are submarines specifically specaialised for launching ballistic missiles right ?

I think the submarines must concentrate on the sea,ocean targets caz it reamins in the sea for all the time and must distroy the ships and do other missile rather firing a missile to the land area that will be tricky if you have that land sites then what is the need to fire a missile from the sea or from the train ok if the missile is to be launched from the train there they will need the air power and guns and all that and the train could stop or move on the track only and when the case is with the submarine i think it would have to come to the surface before firing because the thrust will get wet no need to spend money which go waste one air to groung missile and there goes the train and the submarine concentrate on the land launchers keep them ready this will be easy and fire on the targets.
I think the targets are already chosen and they have to be fired when there are symptoms of war so no mobility required.

 

[vicky007]

India to Test Hypersonic Missile. To Use as as a Bunker Buster?

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/2745.asp

As Per the above Report, India is preparing to Test a Hypersonic Missile.

Wouldnt it be a Overkill to use a Hypersonic Missile as a Bunker Buster?
What would otherwise be the advantage of a Hypersonic Missile over conventional Ones? and finally what is the Unique Proposition of Hypersonic Missiles other then the Velocity and Kinetic energy?

 

[aaaditya]

Re: India to Test Hypersonic Missile. To Use as as a Bunker Buster?

actually there have been reports of india developing a mach 10 super brahmos(dont know how true they are),recently a model of india's hypersonic missile was seen on the bharat rakshak forum,there may be a pic on this forum too,india's missile director has stated that development of india's indigenous atbm is in an advanced stage and the missile will be most probably testfired next year(the missile is expected to have a range of 160kms and a speed of m10),i also remember seeing an image of a german hypersonic bunker buster missile known as lfk and having a range of 600 kms,this missile is supposed to be air launched and can also be used as an anti radiation missile,dont have any further information on that project9the pic was in flight magazine):coffee

 

[highsea]

Re: India to Test Hypersonic Missile. To Use as as a Bunker Buster?

Okay....aaaditya, please don't post rumors here. There are so many things wrong with your post I don't even want to go into it. Please do a little research before talking about mach 10 missiles, and provide links.

Vicky007-
1. It depends on what's inside the bunker.

2. Advantages depend on what you are comparing it against. In cruise missiles, the main advantage is speed. In ballistic missiles, well, they already are hypersonic if they are long range BM's, but those are strategic weapons, not tactical ones. You can't launch an ICBM at a terrorist in a safe house. A long range hypersonic cruise missile can hit targets with a small warhead, and you don't have the International "fallout" of launching an ICBM. Say you have a high value target in a known location (our hypothetical terrorist in the safe house). If you have the ability to strike within a couple hours, you have a better chance of success than if you have to move aircraft or conventional cruise missile launch platforms into range.

3. That's it- speed and kinetic energy.

Hypersonic speeds are considered as anything over mach 5, so if the article you posted is correct (mach 4), then that's not really a hypersonic missile.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: India to Test Hypersonic Missile. To Use as as a Bunker Buster?

well highsea these are not rumours iam just telling you what i have seen the links are bharat rakshak forum(general missile technology discusion thread page 2 they have got a photo of avatar hyperplane.and the hstv also check page 3 there are quite a few good articles according to the times of india from which the picture was posted this hypersonic missile is likely to be tested in 2007,india has also successfully tested a scramjet combuster with 2.5kg/sec combustor of which more than 100 tests have been carried out also currently design work is going ona 5kg/sec combustor(source: http://www.isro.org/rep2005/space transport.htm),iam sorry i cannot post the informations on the german lfk missile which i have lost and also the infoemation on the m10 atbm(there was a news article quoting indian scientist v.k.saraswat),also check www.indiadefence.com there is an article on the brahmos missile(though these are not yet officialy confirmed).also chechttp://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/2745.aspk ,
http://www.hindu.com/2005/05/11/stories/2005051117030500.htm
hthttp://edefenseonline.com/default.asp?func=article&aref=03_16_2005_OM_01tp://edefenseonline.com/

also check the following pictures,this was the one i was mentioning about,that is mr.prahlada and behind him is the nag atgm.

this the image of avatar hyperplane posted during aeroindia 98,drdo and isro are working on this project,drdo's version is of the size of mig25 and meant for the airforce.

Post merged.

 

[highsea]

Re: India to Test Hypersonic Missile. To Use as as a Bunker Buster?

As I said- you need to do some research before you post. If you read your own links, you will see that there is no such thing as the Mach 10 Brahmos. Ramjets are not capable of operating at mach 10.

The Strategic BrahMos

While national media have reported a hypersonic Mach 8 variant of BrahMos to be developed in future, the Western defence media circles are anticipating a sub-sonic or transonic (near the speed of sound) Land Attack Cruise Missile (LACM) variant with an estimated range of 800-km to 1,400-km. In any case a Mach 8 variant of BrahMos will indicate a major technological breakthrough by the Russians in the context of the propulsion components of solid booster and liquid kerosene ramjet engine.

Avator is not Brahmos. There is already a thread here on Avatar, do a search on the Defence Tech forum.

also check the following pictures,this was the one i was mentioning about,that is mr.prahlada and behind him is the nag atgm

No, that is a picture of the HSTDV. It is a technology demonstrator.The Nag ATGM is an anti-tank guided missile with an IIR seeker. It is not a hypersonic missile. Here is a correct picture:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Images/NAG-3.jpg

Neither is this a picture of a hypersonic missile. It is the Akash SAM:

http://www.hindu.com/2005/05/11/images/2005051117030501.jpg

India's ATBM network is still not defined. We don't know whether it will be comprised of S-300/400, Arrow-2, or PAC-2/3, or something else, but none of them go mach 10.

In the future, do not post three times if you have information to add. Just edit your post. It also would help if you took a moment to format your post to make it more legible.

 

[vicky007]

Missile Beyong the Agni-III Range Possible Says Indian Scientist

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2005/05/20/stories/2005052002820300.htm

There is a mention in the article which states that India has the expertise to go beyond the stated AGNI -III missile range of 3500 Miles on account of its expertise with the development of the entire Missile Development Programme.

Given that Agni-III itself would be the Longest Range missile when it is tested towards the end of the year What "expertise" is the scientist elluding to?

Would it be a Reference to the Rumoured Surya ICBM Development Programme? or is it just confirmation of the Cross-Synergies inherent in its Satellite Launching Vehicles??

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Missile Beyong the Agni-III Range Possible Says Indian Scientist

some interesting news found on the net
http://www.dapss.com/MPI/samples/Vol.15/issue0605/0605P-india.htm
Range extension for Sagarika sub-launched cruise missile

According to a senior scientist in the Indian Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the Government has approved the DRDO’s plan to extend the range of the developmental Sagarika submarine-launched cruise missile from its current 300km to 2,500km, so that it can be used as a nuclear deterrent. The Sagarika is scheduled to arm the Indian Navy’s indigenously developed, nuclear-powered submarine the Advanced Technology Vessel, when it enters service in 2010 at the earliest.

To this end, another US$581 million has been allocated to the Sagarika program. So far, firing trials have been confined to land-based test launches. But under the range extension program, submarine-launched trials will be conducted in the next two years.

Indian-based scientists from Russia’s NPO Mashinostroyenia (NPOM) have been helping to improve the Sagarika’s guidance system, including the supply of critical hardware. The guidance system for the two-stage, 5,600kg missile uses a strap-down Inertial Navigation System augmented by GPS, giving a Circular Error Probability of 25m. According to a senior official from Rosoboronex-port, however, NPOM’s assistance has nothing to do with developing the missile as a nuclear weapon.

Technical assistance from Israel on the Sagarika program has also been approved, but no details on this are yet available. © DAPSS S.A., 2005, Switzerland

In case if you guys missed this nugget......

http://www4.alternativenews.org/display.php?id=4348

http://indiareacts.com/nati2.asp?recno=3333&ctg=(thailand is the fourth country to express interest in the brahmos):coffee

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Missile Beyong the Agni-III Range Possible Says Indian Scientist

some info turbo popeye
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/air_missiles/popeye_turbo/Popeye_Turbo.html
In May 2000 Israel is reported to have secretly carried out its first test launches from two German-built Dolphin-class submarines of cruise missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads. The missiles launched from vessels off Sri Lanka in the Indian Ocean are said to have hit a target at a range of about 1,500 kilometers. Israel is reported to possess a 200kg nuclear warhead, containing 6kg of plutonium, that could be mounted on cruise missille:coffee