Indian Army seeks next generation battle tank

[Titanium]

Indian Army seeks next generation battle tank-Arjun dead!

www.idrw.org / Indian Defense Research Wing

The Indian Army has sought a new generation main battle tank (MBT) even as it reluctantly prepares to receive the homegrown Arjun tank that has been over three decades in the making.

'What we have today is mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor said Tuesday.

'I have no doubt that the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) will be able to develop indigenous capabilities for coming up with a better answer and more versatile armoured fighting vehicle (than Arjun) in the future,' he added while speaking at the inaugural session of an international seminar on Armoured Fighting Vehicles, the first to be held here.

Kapoor also called for synergy between scientists, users and producers to ensure the delivery of a cutting-edge-technology tank.

'The scientists cannot work in isolation. The users (the army) should be with them. So also should the producers, be they the public sector undertakings or private players. Only then will we see an indigenous armoured fighting vehicle of international quality,' the army chief maintained.

Kapoor's remarks were a clear indication that even as the Indian Army prepares to induct its first squadron of 14 Arjuns, it is not too happy with the tank.:

These tanks, in fact, had been handed over for user trials last year and were returned to the manufacturer -- the Combat Vehicles Development Establishment -- with a list of defects that have now apparently been ironed out.

These include a deficient

1. fire control system,
2. inaccuracy of its guns,
3. low speeds in tactical areas -- principally deserts --
4. and its inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius.

The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, the DRDO announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.

Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun.

Is this start of a new tank development in the 40 tonne range? It cannot be the same tank with lower weight!

Added on 26 Nov:
DefenseNews.com - India Tackles Second Tank Design Project - 11/26/07 17:19

NEW DELHI — India plans to design another main battle tank for future Army requirements, its second such attempt after a 30-year effort to develop the Arjun, which failed to meet requirements.

The state-owned Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) has initiated the design and development of the Futuristic Main Battle Tank (FMBT), intended to fulfill the original role of the Arjun and replace aging Russian T-72 tanks, a senior CVRDE scientist said.
CVRDE is India’s only tank development agency, operating under the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The DRDO will form a consortium to design and develop the FMBT. CRDRE has short-listed the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi, as its development partner, and will also seek partnership with two unidentified private companies.
The CVRDE scientist said full development will begin in April. DRDO will fund 50 percent of the cost with the partners paying for the rest. Six prototypes will be developed in seven years, and bulk production is planned from 2020.

The FMBT will weigh 40 tons and feature a 125mm gun, the CVRDE scientist said. Advanced features will include the ability to fire kinetic weapons and missiles, an active protection system, and hybrid armor to defeat improvised explosive devices.

 

[Titanium]

Army okays development of Arjun Mark II tanks

New Delhi (PTI): The army on Tuesday gave the go-ahead for developing next generation indigenous battle tanks after a successful run of the original model Arjun.

Based on its experience in designing the Arjun MBTs, the DRDO was coming up with a lighter and more versatile version called Arjun MK-II which is expected to meet future needs, Army chief General Deepak Kapoor told an international seminar on Armoured Fighting Vehicles here.

Defence scientists are also working on the Tank X project comprising features of Arjun and Russian-supplied T-72 tanks.

The function organised by the CII was presided over by Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh, who asked Indian companies to invest and participate more in production of weapons systems.

 

[indian bull]

a good news about future of indian tanks:-
Indian developers are believed to have come up with a revolutionary 'honey comb' design for the NERA (Non-explosive and non-Energetic Reactive Armour) Armour and, according to our sources, is said to be performing 'perfectly'.

NERA is a reactive armour which works like any explosive reactive armour but with the crucial difference being the using of energy in form of a charge instead of explosives. Israel, America are reportedly interested in seeking access to this technology.

 

[surya]

arjun battle tanks

y dont the army start looking out for an alternative.army chief has spoken about its incapabilities.y dont they drop the acquisition plans of arjun.

 

[Titanium]

Army okays development of Arjun Mark II tanks

New Delhi (PTI): The army on Tuesday gave the go-ahead for developing next generation indigenous battle tanks after a successful run :unknown of the original model Arjun.

.

What exactly successful run of Arjun here? Hardly 15 Tanks till day has been manufactured and Army want New Tank.

Is he just being charitable to DRDO?

 

[funtz]

I dont think there is anything like the original model of arjun, right now the design seems to have been frozen and all the work will be done on that design, so the next version might not be too different, as it is the T-90 is not going anywhere till 2030, and a lot of them have already been on order before the arjun even completed the development stage.

The Army will make sure they do not get arjun in huge numbers to keep things simple.
The DRDO + defense ministry will try to shove some down.
DRDO is looking for private firms to partner in the indigenous Engine development for Arjun.

The next step as it seems from my newspaper knowledge seems to be active participation of the private players like L&T, TATA, M&M etc. that will fuel the next major developments, and as the environment will be more competitive the effectiveness might get better, as opposed to a government owened and run structure where there is no compitition to preform.

Is this the new Arjun thread? i thought there were two on arjun already.

 

[Titanium]

Is this the new Arjun thread? i thought there were two on arjun already.

No it is not new Arjun thread, it seems that Army wants New tank not the 58 Ton Arjun.

Based on its experience in designing the Arjun MBTs, the DRDO was coming up with a lighter and more versatile version called Arjun MK-II which is expected to meet future needs, Army chief General Deepak Kapoor told an international seminar on Armoured Fighting Vehicles here.

This may be indication of new tank in the class to 40 Ton range...

Well the Arjun seems to be History now going by the General's Statement:

'What we have today is mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor said Tuesday.

 

[funtz]

The

'What we have today is mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor said Tuesday.

Depends on what do you consider to be a international standard, if USA etc. are the standards then even the T-90 might not fit in as it is a completly different tank. If Russian tanks are the standard then it is another ball game.

If the standard is in the question then again there are some questions, the FCS, engine etc. etc. are all imported or made with collabiration (esp. Israeli help)
so the question is integration and customisation for local conditions, which leaves the armour, if that lacks in quality even when the tank weighs as much as it does, making tanks might just prove to be a tough deal and should be promptly abandoned with a public apology to the tax payer.

Based on its experience in designing the Arjun MBTs, the DRDO was coming up with a lighter and more versatile version called Arjun MK-II which is expected to meet future needs, Army chief General Deepak Kapoor told an international seminar on Armoured Fighting Vehicles here.

As for a light lank, it depends on how light the respected chief of army staff wishes his tanks to be,
if he wants a 'light tank' he might find it hard to justify it as a MBT as long as the gun packs a deadly punch and the armour performs to amazing levels of satisfaction
if he is after the T-90 weight then yes it beats the armour goal that was revised on the insructions of the army (along with the main gun), i think the army is desperate to get the ministry on board with T-90 /T-72 concept and i fail to see why this can not be allowed.

Any design change will not result in another time gap between the requirement and the delivery and again the army will update the parameters midway resulting in longer delays.

Originally Arjun was a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun, this whole project seemed to have been changed due to the evolving requirements of the Army into a 50-60 ton tank, now if they go back to the 40 ton deal it might be a bit too hilarious for me and DRDO

Arjun Mk2 - The Futuristic MBT
Current design of the Arjun Tanks has been frozen to enable production. Arjun Tank in the next phase will see comparatively major changes. It could be called as Futuristic MBT.

http://frontierindia.net/arjun-mk2-the-futuristic-mbt/
This has been around for some time now

As for a complete design change etc. etc. it will come into induction by the time T-72 upgrades turn into junk (judging by the additional orders for T-90that come into the news every time there is a indo Russian meet) , which might be 2020-30, so if it is so then we might be better off sharing the development costs and efforts with another nation like Russia or Israel.

 

[qwerty223]

The Indian Army always confuse me. At a time, they say Arjun, which is developed for their future need, had now close to commision. Later they say they cant wait and therefore ordered T-90.Then Arjun II is again ready, and said to be set for commision sooner or later. Then now they again "seek" for next gen tank. What are they up to?

 

[mysterious]

What effects would the 50-60 ton Arjun have on the Indian armour's performance on its western front since the area is marked by soft sub-soil & water-logged areas which are unsuitable for mammoths?

 

[indian bull]

The Indian Army always confuse me. At a time, they say Arjun, which is developed for their future need, had now close to commision. Later they say they cant wait and therefore ordered T-90.Then Arjun II is again ready, and said to be set for commision sooner or later. Then now they again "seek" for next gen tank. What are they up to?

well it seems that there are some vested interests of some people who dont want to induct arjun, i have posted some links see them. why army is refusing for comparative trials of arjun? why becoz arjun in previous trials has prooved to be more effective and accurate than t-90,it can withstand high tempratures can walk through waters longer than t-90, has night vision and it lies in the category of heavy mbts like us challenger, it has prooven its efficacy in deserts of rajasthan, even electronics of t-90 and its barrell is not effective in deserts.WHY THE INDIAN ARMY IS TURNING BLIND EYE ON ARJUN, nobody knows?

 

[funtz]

What effects would the 50-60 ton Arjun have on the Indian armour's performance on its western front since the area is marked by soft sub-soil & water-logged areas which are unsuitable for mammoths?

The Indian Army always confuses me. At a time, they say Arjun, which is developed for their future need, had now close to commission. Later they say they cant wait and therefore ordered T-90.Then Arjun II is again ready, and said to be set for commission sooner or later. Then now they again "seek" for next gen tank. What are they up to?

I think the question should be the ground pressure that the tank exerts on the surface more than the actual weight and the power to weight ratio that the tank has to power the said tonnage, and more important is the actual doctrine/strategy that the army will go with during the actual hostile scenario and the only way to do that is to talk with someone involved in the whole thing or to study the previous engagements and see how they have evolved in the recent exercises to get to an opinion. Water logged areas are equally troublesome for all things, the weight will have very little effect there, until one can hover over them.


The Army has given clear indications that it wants similar platforms that simplify training, maintenance, operations of the tanks, a upgraded T-72 and a T-90 fulfill this role as of now and the next generation of tanks will take a long time, there will be constant additions on to the platforms (technological), as for the Arjun well if the MoD has its way only then it will be seen serving in numbers.

As for the next generation tank well it can only be worked on once the Arjun platform has matured.

 

[Izzy1]

I think the question should be the ground pressure that the tank exerts on the surface more than the actual weight and the power to weight ratio that the tank has to power the said tonnage, and more important is the actual doctrine/strategy that the army will go with during the actual hostile scenario and the only way to do that is to talk with someone involved in the whole thing or to study the previous engagements and see how they have evolved in the recent exercises to get to an opinion. Water logged areas are equally troublesome for all things, the weight will have very little effect there, until one can hover over them.


The Army has given clear indications that it wants similar platforms that simplify training, maintenance, operations of the tanks, a upgraded T-72 and a T-90 fulfill this role as of now and the next generation of tanks will take a long time, there will be constant additions on to the platforms (technological), as for the Arjun well if the MoD has its way only then it will be seen serving in numbers.

As for the next generation tank well it can only be worked on once the Arjun platform has matured.

funtz Seriously, do you work in the defence field? Serious question??

 

[funtz]

no sir as i said in the profile just your average industrial safety engineer currently out of work willing to frustrate everyone with C grade civilian opinion. The only interest stems from my family, half of them are in the Army while i stay at home and make more of us warriors nfloorl: (a tradition thing, some one from similar culture will understand).

Why, did i throw one too many tall tales.

 

[Izzy1]

no sir as i said in the profile just your average industrial safety engineer currently out of work willing to frustrate everyone with C grade civilian opinion. The only interest stems from my family, half of them are in the Army while i stay at home and make more of us warriors nfloorl: (a tradition thing, some one from similar culture will understand).

Why, did i throw one too many tall tales.

Funtz

Dare I say - your its biggest advocate on here. I think its an early Leopard II design.

Your the Salesman - sell it me...

 

[funtz]

Funtz

Dare I say - your its biggest advocate on here. I think its an early Leopard II design.

Your the Salesman - sell it me...

Naa i am just taking the temporary role of defending the poor beast, their have been discussions on this forum for a long time about every thing including the Arjun tank.

If i am the salesman, the guy who gave me the job ought to be fired,
from what it seems like to me, no sales will be effective till the cost is controlled through acquiring required license to produce all of the imported equipment at home and to use it on MBT's that might be used for exports, if only the project finished at time there was a huge requirement right here in the Indian army, something that will continue to be their, which should fuel further developments of required technology.

As for the early Leopard - II design, may well be if they look similar, the important thing i will never get access to will be the performance of the Kanchan armor under fire - effectiveness/accuracy/damage of the gun+fire control system at different conditions, performance in those deserts, etc. etc. so well all i have to go by are rumors in the media which swing in extremes.
Its just a MBT, what seems to be more important is what the Army wants based on what they know they will do or face in hostile situations, and how a MBT fits into it, if there is a problem in the way the army thinks, you need a miracle or a opponent who is on the same level.

 

[Titanium]

The

Depends on what do you consider to be a international standard, if USA etc. are the standards then even the T-90 might not fit in as it is a completly different tank. If Russian tanks are the standard then it is another ball game.

Well it is not upto me to consider, but it is General's opinion, which again is based on the avasilable tanks in Indian Armour, i.e T-72 and T-90. So according to Army chief Arjun is medium tech compared to T-72 and T-90.

If the standard is in the question then again there are some questions, the FCS, engine etc. etc. are all imported or made with collabiration (esp. Israeli help)
so the question is integration and customisation for local conditions, which leaves the armour, if that lacks in quality even when the tank weighs as much as it does, making tanks might just prove to be a tough deal and should be promptly abandoned with a public apology to the tax payer.

Completely agree with you...

 

[indian bull]

Naa i am just taking the temporary role of defending the poor beast, their have been discussions on this forum for a long time about every thing including the Arjun tank.

If i am the salesman, the guy who gave me the job ought to be fired,
from what it seems like to me, no sales will be effective till the cost is controlled through acquiring required license to produce all of the imported equipment at home and to use it on MBT's that might be used for exports, if only the project finished at time there was a huge requirement right here in the Indian army, something that will continue to be their, which should fuel further developments of required technology.

As for the early Leopard - II design, may well be if they look similar, the important thing i will never get access to will be the performance of the Kanchan armor under fire - effectiveness/accuracy/damage of the gun+fire control system at different conditions, performance in those deserts, etc. etc. so well all i have to go by are rumors in the media which swing in extremes.
Its just a MBT, what seems to be more important is what the Army wants based on what they know they will do or face in hostile situations, and how a MBT fits into it, if there is a problem in the way the army thinks, you need a miracle or a opponent who is on the same level.

I think the main advantage of developing these weapons is reduced dependency on other nations, in emergency war scenarios like what happened in 1999 kargil war. In case if pakistan attacks us[very much possible] and nations like US, RUSSIA,ISRAEL[under huge influence of US] refuse or demand high costs from us,we wouldnt have to look at their faces for mercy. I am a big supporter of DRDO efforts and these efforts should continue and should be intensified. At the least these continued efforts of drdo have helped us in bulding nukes and missiles and now the drdo is getting mature in r&d with advancing time. Do u know funtz when drdo started working on most weapon systems in 1980s it started from a scratch, it started from the abc in the tank and other weapons development.
also regarding development of tank engine tell me which company TATA or L&T is more capable. TATAs have developed a supercomputer which is in world's top 10 this shows their immense capabilities also Larsen and Tubro have developed platform for Dhanush missile for IN, they are also pretty much capable, whatz ur view funtz?

 

[Titanium]

well it seems that there are some vested interests of some people who dont want to induct arjun, i have posted some links see them. why army is refusing for comparative trials of arjun? why becoz arjun in previous trials has prooved to be more effective and accurate than t-90,it can withstand high tempratures can walk through waters longer than t-90, has night vision and it lies in the category of heavy mbts like us challenger, it has prooven its efficacy in deserts of rajasthan, even electronics of t-90 and its barrell is not effective in deserts.WHY THE INDIAN ARMY IS TURNING BLIND EYE ON ARJUN, nobody knows?

Are you referring to Army chief Gen Kapoor? Is he not interested in inducting Arjun? Well there seems to be something wrong either with Arjun or the Army Officer. I will more inclined to believe what Gen.Kapoor is saying....

 

[indian bull]

Well it is not upto me to consider, but it is General's opinion, which again is based on the avasilable tanks in Indian Armour, i.e T-72 and T-90. So according to Army chief Arjun is medium tech compared to T-72 and T-90.



Completely disagree with you..

1.T-72 doesnt even have night vision capability, it is inferior to arjun.
2. If drdo stops its r&d we will lag behind others.
3. we should continue developing Arjun 2 and Tank x.
4. we should make efforts to earn more and pay more tax for these programmes to acheive self sufficiency.
5. The efforts for advanced weapons development should continue as we would cease to exist without our nukes, missiles and other weapons and ofcourse without our brave soldeirs.