If NZ gets fighters again, what should we get?

[Stryker001]

the greens are just a group of stupid hippies who just want to destroy the country

That's a similar problem we have in OZ with the Greens also, Green on the outside, Red on the inside.
Bad thing is they seem to be getting more popular with the voting public. As the Howard Government have now gained control of the Senate, we don't have to worry about the Greens warped views on defence until after the next election.

 

[Aussie Digger]

That's a similar problem we have in OZ with the Greens also, Green on the outside, Red on the inside.
Bad thing is they seem to be getting more popular with the voting public. As the Howard Government have now gained control of the Senate, we don't have to worry about the Greens warped views on defence until after the next election.

The Greens "might" be getting more popular with the public, in general but this didn't transfer into additional votes at the last election (2004). The Greens and Democrates had one of their worst ever performances at the Electorate. I don't think Australia has much to worry about from the Greens party just yet...

 

[EnigmaNZ]

I was just curious why NZ chose the F-16's in the first place, i thought maybe a more suitable aircraft might have been the F/A-18.. Would they have overlooked that because Australia already had them, because one of those articles linked earlier in the thread, i read that it said the F-16s would have filled big holes in Australias air defence..

Also, if that is the case, lets just say for example Australia's aircrafts didn't have any effect on the decision, would they have still gone for the F-16's?

The Skyhawks were coming up for replacement, I would think the US decided it was time they did something with the ex Pakistani F16s that have been in storage since 1990 and they were offered as a job lot to us, all 28, 22 flyable iirc, take it or leave it. We refused so they were turned over to flying training schools in the US.
The F18 is more expensive to purchase, maintain etc and would have caused cuts in other areas in order to acquire. The F16 has the capacity we need at the lowest costs I prosume.

 

[nz enthusiast]

basically what enigma said, plus the F-16 is more manuvarable than the F-18 and to us anyway, had more development potential.
We were considering F-18s because you guys had them but in the end it came down to what we wanted, not what Australia had.

 

[EnigmaNZ]

Just been reading about the new Aussie Tigers. Using their pricing information we could have a small squadron of about 8 such helos for about $NZ500 million including weapons, flight and maintenance simulators and through-life support etc, and being able to operate off the MRV, these would provide a handy close support to our own and allied ground troops. Plus a billion for 16 to 18 late model F16's, would provide a small but creditable air capability to our defence forces and would be a realistic option, rather than mere wishful thinking (F35's, up to 30 AC, etc)

 

[Jason_kiwi]

I agree with EnigmaNZ. F-35's are not practical because of the cost.
This is what I think would improve NZDF
Defence from 2005-2015
ARMY
10- 105mm turreted LAV’s
10 Air defence LAV’s
30 155mm Artillery
150 120mm mortars

NAVY
Acquire 1 ANZAC from Australia
Upgrade other Anzac’s
Upgrade MRV and OPV’s weapons. - 3 25mm cannons, mistral manpad, 2 twin torp tubes, phlanx weapon system.
Acquire new mine, survey and replenish vessels.

AIRFORCE
20 F-16 c’s/d’s
Bring air macche back in service
5 additional Hercules
Upgrade orions to anti surface, sub standard.
12 tiger AAH’s
3 new seaspites and weapon upgrades on older ones
2 air refuellers

 

[Aussie Digger]

This is what I think would improve NZDF Defence from 2005-2015
ARMY
10- 105mm turreted LAV’s
10 Air defence LAV’s
30 155mm Artillery
150 120mm mortars

NAVY
Acquire 1 ANZAC from Australia
Upgrade other Anzac’s
Upgrade MRV and OPV’s weapons. - 3 25mm cannons, mistral manpad, 2 twin torp tubes, phlanx weapon system.
Acquire new mine, survey and replenish vessels.

AIRFORCE
20 F-16 c’s/d’s
Bring air macche back in service
5 additional Hercules
Upgrade orions to anti surface, sub standard.
12 tiger AAH’s
3 new seaspites and weapon upgrades on older ones
2 air refuellers

It certainly would but you've got a rather extensive shopping bill there... The 150 120mm mortars for instance. Are you proposing towed or SP Mortars? Who is to operate the Mortars, the Mortar platoons of your infantry battalions (as they operate your current 81mm Mortars) your Artillery Regiment's, or within your Armoured Regiment?

150 seems like a slightly excessive number to me. NZ only has 7 infantry battalions all up (including Territorials). A standard Mortar platoon operates 6 mortars. That leaves 108 mortars that aren't being used...

As to the 105mm LAV's, 10 seems like an odd number. Are you proposing to employ them within your infantry battalions as a direct fire vehicle, or within the Armoured Regt? If you intend to use them within an infantry battalion, a standard direct fire support/anti-armour weapons platoon normally operates 8 direct fire assets.

You currently operate 2 front line infantry battalions...If you want to use them within the Armd Regt you could employ them within a single direct fire squadron, in which case you'd want a number of troops (possibly 3) a standard troop size within an Armd Squadron is 6... Alternatively you could attach them to your existing Squadrons as an additional troop. Again 6 is the normal size...

I can see the use of a motorised air defence capability, but wouldn't acquiring a motorised/mechanised MISTRAL capability be a cheaper and more useful option? Introducing the Stinger equipped LAV-AD would be an additional expense that was somewhat un-necessary IMHO.

The time for purchasing an extra ANZAC is over. The program is winding down with the 9 ANZAC frigate due to be delivered to the RAN this year and the final ANZAC frigate next year. After that the "ANZAC Alliance" will switch to "through life support" activities and no manufacturing activities will be continued... NZ "might" be able to join the ADF's Air Warfare Destroyer project and order an additional Destroyer, but the cost might be beyond NZ, and it might even be too late for it anyway...

AS to the A2A refuellers NZ might be able to modify it's B757's and give them an A2A refuelling capability. That shouldn't prove too expensive and would give NZ a useful and politcally acceptable "niche" capability for deployments with the US (and thereby get back into the "good books") as it wouldn't be deploying a "combat capability" as such...

 

[Supe]

AD: I suspect those numbers were proffered without knowledge of unit structure, which would account for the 'numbers'. I am in the same boat. I don't know how the army is broken down, and in what numbers. ala squad, platoon, company etc, so some of the discussions on restructuring ADF Army goes over my head.

 

[pepsi]

Is there any chance of NZ replacing the hercs with a400m's in the future?

 

[EnigmaNZ]

Same with me AD, 1 like multiples of 5, go fiqure, 6 of this and 8 of that seems somehow messy, so thanks for that information. Jason is still at school so is probably more enthusiastic than knowledgable on the finer points as well.

LAV-AD comes in a mistral version, doesn't have to be stinger, the Blazer-mistral also has its own cueing/tracking radar.
The LAV 105 would be part of the battalion formation, with javelin would provide close support, there is a 25mm autocannon/javelin turret for a IFV similar to the bradley 25/TOW turret.
The 105 howitzers are due for replacement from 2010, perhaps a time to move to 155mm, hopefully SP, if so then probably wheeled, probably following Australia.
120mm mortars would be nice but 1 for 1 replacement probably sufficient unless the 3rd battalion formed.
A 3rd ANZAC, there was talk once of maybe convincing Oz to sell one of their earlier versions, keeping 12 overall available betwwen the 2 countries but providing a better balance between NZ and its bigger neighbour.
The OPV are large enough to take on some roles that fall onto the ANZACS, but need sensor and weapon upgrades to do so safely.
5 additional C-130 wrong, stay with the 5 current and add 3 or so strategic lifters, A400 nice, the manufactorers were aiming for $80 million each flyaway(US/Euro)but like all new programs who knows. Westernised IL76-CFM56's would suffice I would think.
Hmm, thats all I recall of Jasons list.

 

[EnigmaNZ]

Is there any chance of NZ replacing the hercs with a400m's in the future?

The C-130H are being upgraded to last another 15 years by which time the A400 should be in service and be debugged by other operators. With Oz maybe purchasing some, it is possible, there having been much debate over the inadequecy of the C-130 in carrying larger items of army equipment (primarily the LAV), the price is supposedly not a great deal more than the C-130J, have to wait 10 years to see.
The Herc J was such a major upgrade, it's a pity they didn't recreate it as a wide bodied lifter, an extra 0.5 to 0.75 meters in diameter would have done wonders for the popularity of the type.

 

[Jason_kiwi]

It certainly would but you've got a rather extensive shopping bill there... The 150 120mm mortars for instance. Are you proposing towed or SP Mortars? Who is to operate the Mortars, the Mortar platoons of your infantry battalions (as they operate your current 81mm Mortars) your Artillery Regiment's, or within your Armoured Regiment?

150 seems like a slightly excessive number to me. NZ only has 7 infantry battalions all up (including Territorials). A standard Mortar platoon operates 6 mortars. That leaves 108 mortars that aren't being used...

As to the 105mm LAV's, 10 seems like an odd number. Are you proposing to employ them within your infantry battalions as a direct fire vehicle, or within the Armoured Regt? If you intend to use them within an infantry battalion, a standard direct fire support/anti-armour weapons platoon normally operates 8 direct fire assets.



You currently operate 2 front line infantry battalions...If you want to use them within the Armd Regt you could employ them within a single direct fire squadron, in which case you'd want a number of troops (possibly 3) a standard troop size within an Armd Squadron is 6... Alternatively you could attach them to your existing Squadrons as an additional troop. Again 6 is the normal size...

I can see the use of a motorised air defence capability, but wouldn't acquiring a motorised/mechanised MISTRAL capability be a cheaper and more useful option? Introducing the Stinger equipped LAV-AD would be an additional expense that was somewhat un-necessary IMHO.

The time for purchasing an extra ANZAC is over. The program is winding down with the 9 ANZAC frigate due to be delivered to the RAN this year and the final ANZAC frigate next year. After that the "ANZAC Alliance" will switch to "through life support" activities and no manufacturing activities will be continued... NZ "might" be able to join the ADF's Air Warfare Destroyer project and order an additional Destroyer, but the cost might be beyond NZ, and it might even be too late for it anyway...

AS to the A2A refuellers NZ might be able to modify it's B757's and give them an A2A refuelling capability. That shouldn't prove too expensive and would give NZ a useful and politcally acceptable "niche" capability for deployments with the US (and thereby get back into the "good books") as it wouldn't be deploying a "combat capability" as such...

There would be 5 LAV 105 in each balliton to act as fire support and there would be 5 LAV Air defence in each balliton to act as air defence.

sorry my mistake about the 150 morters. I did change it earlier but it must have not saved it. it was 75 120mm morters. If OZ wouldn't give us an anzac mayby the UK would sell us one of theres. I don't think a destroyer is an option. For a small country like NZ that has no threat, I think it would be an outrageous purchase.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Same with me AD, 1 like multiples of 5, go fiqure, 6 of this and 8 of that seems somehow messy, so thanks for that information. Jason is still at school so is probably more enthusiastic than knowledgable on the finer points as well.


A 3rd ANZAC, there was talk once of maybe convincing Oz to sell one of their earlier versions, keeping 12 overall available betwwen the 2 countries but providing a better balance between NZ and its bigger neighbour.

Multiples of 5 are easier to add up mathematically I suppose...

However they are not used much with defence forces (see the Australian Army's aborted attempt at a Pentropic Dvision in the 1960's for that)...

The reason that multiples of 6 or 8 are used is that such formations can easily broken down into smaller sub-units, that are of equal capability. A standard mortar platoon for instance is equipped with 6 tubes. These are structured into 3 Mortar sections each of 2 tubes. This allows said Mortar platoon to operate as a whole or disperse into 3 (or even 2) formations of equal capability. 5 tubes or LAV 105's would have to operate as a whole or break into uneven formations...

The UK doesn't operate ANZAC class frigates. and I doubt the RAN will sell one of it's. We haven't got enough frigates as it is... NZ originally planned to acquire another one a few years back, but decided not to, much to Australia's disappointment. You're NOT gonna get another one now...

 

[nz enthusiast]

Or we could always just build it ourselves....we do have a growing boat building industry you know...

I would actually prefer another MRV than a frigate, i think New Zealand should just merge the navy, army and air force and create the NZ marines...

 

[Jason_kiwi]

Offcoarse the UK don't operate ANZAC's. I meant get one of their other types of frigates.

 

[highsea]

I think we are drifting off course gentlemen, let's keep the frigates and MRV's in the Naval forum please.

 

[Highwayman]

What is the point of NZ having a large fleet of fighter a/c.

Your only realistic threat is from naval forces so they are unlikely to get into the air defence business as I know of none of your potential enemies having carriers and your only close neighbour Australia unlikely to attack you.
The only reason you need fighther a/c is to train land and naval forces and to counter any foreign naval threat.
The NZ support a/c fleet is so small that they would be unable to support even a small attachment of fighter a/c operating away from home for a period of time unless your allies can be garanteed to assist you.
The MB339s (if they have not been sold already?) and maybe 10 F16 type a/c would be more than sufficient.
NZ is flying antique a/c around (C130s and P3s acquired in the 60s) and they are even now apparently struggling to keep them serviceable.
It OK modernising systems but they are still old aircraft.
These a/c do perform a valuable role around the world but instead of buying a large fleet of fighters would not the money be better spent on new Hercs (or the A400M in the near future) ,later model Orions and a small fleet of combat a/c.
It OK having a wish list but what ever party is in power you will never have a large defence budget.

 

[Jason_kiwi]

It's not about the budget, its about the choices.What can we buy instead of the 757's which wasted 300mil, anzac upgrades. Instead of the LAV's why not buy warrior?
The ideal Air Combat force for NZ would be 20 F-16D's and bring the air makies back in service, and arm them as well as the F-16D's. That would only cost a billion.How to rake the money up is with decisions. An extra bil wouldn't hurt. And for another frigate, buy one of the UK's frigates or mayby a german MEKO.Instead of using that 4.6billion on more missile and ammo supplies, spares, new reserve equipment and staff spend it wisely on a Frigate(500mil and the fighters) (1 bil) all up mayby around 2 billion.

 

[nz enthusiast]

The problem is Jason with all the stuff that we want, we won't be able to use. We just simply do not ahve the man power anymore. The government has made almost 800 people redundant in the last 5 to 10 years and that we would be wanting them again they seem to have disappeared. We aren't actually gaining troops at the moment, we are lossing them, which is why over half our lavs sit in warehouses. This 4.6billion, a large part of it anyway is to try and get personal back and make them stay instead of leaving for other armed forces where they get better pay and working conditions.
Jason your frigate would up sitting in the dock doing nothing, while your F-16s would sit in a warehouse with the skyhawks.

 

[Jason_kiwi]

The frigate will be there to support in operations like east timor and the fighters are there to protect NZ.