Hypothetical Forces : Transformation

[BuSOF]

Alright, that puts things in a firmer perspective. Some additional questions:
We all know that manpower is drawn by administrative divisions, but fights with concern for the terrain. I imagine the fictional country we are discussing is very decentralised, not like that most of the people are separatists, but that local municipalities have broad freedoms.
So does this mean that every municipality has responsibilities for the combat readiness if the reserve or is defense strictly work of the central executive power?
Secondly what are the relations between the different parts of the country? Does the former administrative division mean that, for example men from Odenwald wouldn't feel very happy about serving in a unit together with, say, men from Mannheim?
Thirdly will military structure correspond to the administrative divisions or will it be unique and following the terrain?
Fourthly I would go for a defense system like that of Sweden and Switzerland during the Cold War, but you say that 100 000 men is the top. Even if it stays like that the number we have proposed are way below that number. What are we going to do about it? The way I see it we can easily organise :
1) active division of max . 20 000 men in wartime when fully mobilised
2) two Heimatschutzen divisions of some 15 000 - 20 000 men when fully mobilised
3) Gendarmery (MP) service of max. 10 000 men in wartime
4) supporting units of max. 15 000 men when fully mobilised
5) air force of max. 8 000 men in wartime
or overall number of of a little less than 100 000 men
How does that sound to you?

 

[kato]

Some additional questions:
We all know that manpower is drawn by administrative divisions, but fights with concern for the terrain. I imagine the fictional country we are discussing is very decentralised, not like that most of the people are separatists, but that local municipalities have broad freedoms.

Yes. While the central government handles external affairs and things affecting all regions, the administrative regions basically see to their own internal things, and the municipalities handle a number of internal affairs by themselves as well as pretty much the day-to-day stuff. The overall system isn't really federalized, but slightly more so than say France. Elected governments would exist at municipality and state level; regional governance would be handled by an assembly formed from the municipalities.

So does this mean that every municipality has responsibilities for the combat readiness if the reserve or is defense strictly work of the central executive power?

Centralized, however reserve administration (personnel primarily) could be handed down to e.g. region level. If handed down, regions would in then likely open reserve administration offices on district level and hold training in formations at similar or finer level.
So, basically, we don't have administration for such in every municipality, but reserve would still be relatively "local".

(Sidenote: this concept is a progression from the Territorialheer, which would have had its lowest-level units - VKK - in the form of a company or two and specialized platoons at a similar level)

Does the former administrative division mean that, for example men from Odenwald wouldn't feel very happy about serving in a unit together with, say, men from Mannheim?

Not really all that much. There is some very light tension, but nothing that prevents joint units. To people from e.g. Mannheim or Rhein-Neckar, someone from Main-Tauber or Odenwald would come off as a "country redneck" or similar.

Thirdly will military structure correspond to the administrative divisions or will it be unique and following the terrain?

In defense responsibilities? Would likely be formed at least along district level, though multiple districts can be joined across region borders into some structural command (e.g. a joint command for the valley districts north of the capital).

[Numbers]
How does that sound to you?

Sounds good, for full mobilization. Airforce sounds a bit big, you could form 6-7 squadrons with those numbers easily

 

[kato]

Everyone on vacation?

I'll propose now...

1) Maneuver Division : 16,000 men (75% active)
2) Airforce : 4,000 men (75% active)
3) Air Defense Division : 8,000 men (75% active)
4) Reserve Command (5 brigades) : 24,000 men (10% active)
5) Support Units: 8,000 men (15% active)

Total: 60,000 men (active: 24,600 ; reserve: 35,400)

plus 10,000 men Gendarmerie as wartime combatants, ~50% demobilized in peacetime.

Organization
Basically as outlined in post #129.

1) Maneuver Division
Command & Control : 1,200 men (400 reserve)
Maneuver Brigades (x3) : 4000 men ea (900 reserve), mechanized BCT
Support : 2,800 men (900 reserve), transport/medical/supply etc
Note: Third maneuver brigade, same equipment, added

2) Airforce
Command & Control : 500 men
Airbases (x2) : 300 men ea
Helicopter Squadron (x2) : 600 men ea , incl. maintenance
Security Battalion (x2) : 600 men ea (500 reserve)
Support : 500 men

3) Air Defense Division
Command & Control : 1,600 men (600 reserve), fixed equipment
Air-Defense Brigades (x2) : 3,200 men ea (700 reserve), SAMs and ADA

4) Reserve Command
Command & Control : 1,500 men (1,000 reserve)
Territorial Brigade (x5) : 3,500 men ea (3,300 reserve)
Security Battalion (x3) : 600 men ea (400 reserve)
Support : 3,200 men (2,900 reserve)

5) Support Units
medical, bridging, engineer, Corps-level NBC, maintenance etc

 

[BuSOF]

Not only on vacation, but studying thoriughly the specifics of Blue.
Might give you my proposals in a couple of days.
Probably it will be an amalgama from previous german, swiss and swedish organisations plus a tip or two from other examples.

For th etime being I am thinking how to displace the manpower. I was thinking that the citizens mostly form the mechanised formations and the farmers from the south and east of the country boost the ranks of the light infantry (ranger) infantry and the security forces and gendarmery. Nothing specific as of that moment, only that armoured brigades and divisions are not needed. Maybe I will couple each tank battalion with a mechanised infantry battalion.

Anyway two active air bases seem a bit too much to me. I think one is enough. Plus every reserve brigade will have helipads at its facilities. Its main garrison will be coupled with reserve air force base and the cargo airport you mentioned will be used, but will not have the status of an air base. So there will be a depot nearby, but it will be manned by a logistics platoon and some 20 men security personnel. In times of crysis a security company will be deployed.

I am not sure that AD should be a division, brigade command could work aswell. Air force could also be a brigade HQ. There should be provisions for a 3-squadron Jagdgeshwader in wartime. I sugest the second helicopter squadron be kept in reserve to acquire civil machines in wartime (Bell 412s, Bell 206s, Eurocopters etc.)

MAnpower levels could be raised even more I think. It seems to me that around 100 000 men should be in the units in case of a full mobilisation with another 200 000 to replace casualties in those units. What do you think about the special operations assets?

 

[kato]

MAnpower levels could be raised even more I think. It seems to me that around 100 000 men should be in the units in case of a full mobilisation with another 200 000 to replace casualties in those units.

For comparison, Germany at full mobilization in 1989: 1,327,700 (494,300 active, 849,000 reserve).

Relative to population (7.4%), results for Blue in : 95,100 (35,400 active, 59,700 reserve)
Relative to area (5%), results for Blue in : 66,400 (24,700 active, 41,700 reserve)

Hence, we could basically take it either way. 100,000 as cap for manpower in units sounds good seen from the first set; second set could be seen as underlining the smaller approach.

The numbers for Germany included:
Heer - 340,700 active, 717,000 reserve (incl. Territorialheer)
Luftwaffe - 106,000 active, 106,000 reserve
Marine - 32,000 active, 26,000 reserve
Other - 11,600 active, 7,000 part-time active reserve

Border Police wartime combatants for Germany were ~35,000 strong (relative as above for Blue: 2600 or 1750).

Anyway two active air bases seem a bit too much to me. [...]

Sounds good.

What do you think about the special operations assets?

Not too many. Probably not in excess of say... 1% of overall forces, i.e. about one battalion to one regiment. Hook it wherever you want, preferably with decent transportation (e.g. close to the helo squadron).

 

[BuSOF]

Direct translation of the german manpower levels onto Blue military doesn't work. I was thinking about Switzerland, about Singapore. Those small countries had really big percentage of the population that was mobilizable during wartime. So if we consider that:

1) Blue recently split out of Germany
2) it is still unsure about things are gonna go for the next 10-20 years to come
3) Blue people keep a high degree of patriotism and are willing to undergo military training at least just in cases

then I say that the goal should be to train 200 000 to 300 000 men for military service in the next 10 years and if things go peacefully then drop slowly the mobilization levels with, say, 20 000 men a year until they settle between 90 000 and 120 000.

As for Special forces manpower is not what I meant. I was asking how do you see them as capabilities. Should they look like the KSK (or SAS) or should they be a battalion with universally trained special operations specialists?

Once again I am thinking about the swiss model. So I foresee a Grenadier battalion (in peacetime one operational company, a training company, half of the logistics company and the battalion HQ will be active or roughly 250-350 men). In addition to that if there should be a paratrooper company (which I don't think is necessary) it could be the active company of the grenadier battalion instead of being an external asset. One gendarmery battalion should be counter-special operations unit, so in order to be proficient its men will also have extensive sabotage, diversion and infiltartion technics training and could also be considered SOF. I don't mean that other gendarmery forces won't have that capability, only that this battalion will be the main expertise training center and the gendarmerie's main such asset. In addition at least one company of combat engineers will have commando training for demolition support of the grenadiers deep behind enemy lines. The general staff should have its own Fernspaeh unit of not much than 70 men. Otherwise the SOF mentioned above it will be an army asset (except for the gendarmery).

If I were you I would cut short the air force security battalion you mention. I would establish the auxiliary Heimatschutzen:

Heimatschutzen Einsatzunterstuetzung Heer [HSEH]
Heimatschutzen Einsatzunterstuetzung Luftwaffe [HSEL]
Heimatschutzen Einsatzunterstuetzung Feldjaeger (or Gendarmerie) [HSEF]

These units will be wartime reserve
HSEH will present the territorial army. (a small portion will be activated in crysis: floodings, aviation crashsites, other emergencies)
HSEL will provide Objektschutz and light stationary air defenses.
HSEF will support the Gendarmerie and boost its numbers up to 10 000 in wartime. (in peacetime there will be small units - groups and platoons - on standby for riot-control support, otherwise only the metropolitan active units of the gendarmery will present that asset.)

 

[kato]

then I say that the goal should be to train 200 000 to 300 000 men for military service in the next 10 years and if things go peacefully then drop slowly the mobilization levels with, say, 20 000 men a year until they settle between 90 000 and 120 000.

Based around Swiss model:

24,400 males reach military age yearly in Blue. Of these, 40% will do for military service (30% unfit, 30% opt-out civilian service), resulting in 9750 available conscripts.

We have 2 "basic training" rounds per year; each time, 4500 conscripts are trained, for 6 months. These will do refresher training every year during the next 10 years for 3 weeks each.

Active conscripts (first-year) : 9,000
Active conscripts (refresher) : 5,200

Reserve 1 (20-30 yo) : 90,000 (trained personnel, inactive; yearly refresher training)
Reserve 2 (30-40 yo) : 90,000 (trained personnel, inactive; do not refresh training)

In the medium term (deescalation), the "reserve 2" forces can be significantly reduced.

The army (regulars) would recruit itself from the remaining 750 personnel as well as internally from well-performing drafted conscripts.

In the reserves, the conscripts form 30,000 of the 35,400 posts. Each conscript post would have at least three reserve 1 conscripts assigned to it; at wartime, the other two would either serve as replacement for attrition, or to form additional identical units.

For overall context sake I'd be willing to not fully count conscripts against the 25,000 limit.

As for Special forces manpower is not what I meant. I was asking how do you see them as capabilities. Should they look like the KSK (or SAS) or should they be a battalion with universally trained special operations specialists?

More along the lines of KSK. That is e.g. one or two companies specialized in vertical insertion, same for long-range recon, several platoons for hostage crisis and so on.

Heimatschutzen Einsatzunterstuetzung Heer [HSEH]
Heimatschutzen Einsatzunterstuetzung Luftwaffe [HSEL]
Heimatschutzen Einsatzunterstuetzung Feldjaeger (or Gendarmerie) [HSEF]

HSEH : "Reserve Command"
HSEL : formed by the two Airforce security battalions
HSEH : addressed by the about 5,000 reserve gendarmerie

need to go through that ToE and OrBat again some time...

 

[kato]

Don't think i have it all worked out, but as a proposal...


Conscripts train 3 months in training regiment (basic training), then 3 months in designated unit type (advanced training). Afterwards they are put in reserves, rejoin for 3-4 weeks every year in their designated function.
The bulk go to the Heimatschutzdivisionen, conscripts with good performance go to 1st and 2nd division. Each division also has a number of reserves drawn from regular soldiers for higher functions.
The Heimatschutzdivisionen are - for administrative purposes - placed in the separate regions; there is one in each region, plus one in the capital district; however, personnel is not necessarily drawn from their specific region.

Peacetime Gendarmerie does not count against 25,000 cap, neither do the "refreshers".

We have, at any time:
20,500 regulars
4,500 conscripts
97,100 reserve
4,000 gendarmerie active
6,000 gendarmerie reserve

Total wartime manpower: 132,100

An additional ~75,000 reserve soldiers (older, trained) would be pre-designated in spots to replace attrition. Heimatschutzdivisionen would be slowly built up over the next 10 years (about one every 2 years), the 6 total divisions are a target structure.

Order of Battle

---------------------------------------------

Divisional Troops (in each division)

• Staff Battalion (active)
• Signals Battalion (partial active)
• Medical Battalion (partial active)
• Security Battalion (reserve)
• Training Regiment (active) (not in 11th to 16th)
• Support Regiment (partial active)

---------------------------------------------

1st Corps

• Manpower: 1,600 regular, 5,100 reserve
• Orbat:
  • 1 Staff regiment (partial active)
  • 2 Signals regiments (partial active)
  • 1 Special Forces battalion (active)
  • 1 Long Range Recon company (active)
  • 1 Security Regiment (reserve)
  • 1 Support Regiment (reserve)
  • 1 Engineer Regiment (reserve)
• Note: Corps Command for 1st, 2nd, ASD, 11th; gendarmerie in wartime only.

1st Division

• Manpower: 9,400 regular, 1,500 conscripts, 3,000 reserve
• Orbat:
  • 2 Mechanized Infantry brigades (partial active)
  • 1 Engineer regiment (active)
  • 1 Artillery regiment (active)
• Note: active defense division. Brigades have one battalion in reserve each.

2nd Division

• Manpower: 1,800 regular, 1,500 conscripts, 8,300 reserve
• Orbat:
  • 2 Motorized Infantry brigades (reserve)
  • 1 Engineer regiment (partial active)
  • 1 Artillery regiment (reserve)
• Note: Training Division primarily; Brigades quick-response reserve.

Air Support Division

• Manpower: 5,300 regular, 1,500 conscripts, 2,900 reserve
• Orbat:
  • 1 Air Defense Missile brigade (active)
  • 1 Air Defense Cannon regiment (partial active)
  • 1 Helicopter regiment (partial active)
• Note: no second brigade; would be hook-up for a future Airforce. 2nd and 3rd Battalion of regiments (and security regiment) reserve (HSEL).

Gendarmerie Division

• Manpower: 4000 regular, 6,000 reserve
• Orbat:
  • 2 Gendarmerie brigades (reserve)
  • 2 Gendarmerie regiments (active)
• Note: Regiments spread out, Brigades form wartime reserve (HSEF).

11th Division (Heimatschutz)

• Manpower: 400 regular, 12,200 reserve
• Orbat:
  • 2 Infantry brigades (reserve)
  • 1 Fire Support regiment (reserve)
  • 1 Engineer regiment (partial active)
• Note: Reserve Division. Placed in capital district.

1st Corps : 23,000 active (incl. 4,500 conscripts), 31,500 reserve; 10,000 gendarmerie under command in wartime.
(total wartime 64,500)

---------------------------------------------

2nd Corps (HESH)

• Manpower: 100 regular, 5,600 reserve
• Orbat:
  • 1 Staff regiment (partial active)
  • 2 Signals regiments (reserve)
  • 1 Demolitions battalion (reserve)
  • 1 Long Range Recon company (reserve)
  • 1 Security Regiment (reserve)
  • 1 Support Regiment (reserve)
  • 1 Engineer Regiment (reserve)
• Note: Heimatschutz Corps Command for 12th to 16th. Unlike 1st Corps, no SOF, instead a battalion handling domestic demolition (Wallmeister).

12th - 16th Division (Heimatschutz)

• Manpower: 380 regular, 12,200 reserve
• Orbat:
  • 2 Infantry brigades (reserve)
  • 1 Fire Support regiment (reserve)
  • 1 Engineer regiment (partial active)
• Note: Reserve divisions, filled with conscript reserves. Pure manpower upkeep system. One division in each administrative region.

2nd Corps : 2,000 active, 66,600 reserve
(total wartime 67,600)

---------------------------------------------

Can we work with that?


Oh, and to satisfy the naming:

Wehrkommando

• 1te Panzergrenadierdivision
• 10te Grenadierdivision (= 2nd Division)
• 11te Grenadierdivision
• Luftwaffe (= Air Support Division)
• Gendarmerie

Heimatschutzkommando

• 12te Heimatschutzdivision
• 13te Heimatschutzdivision
• 14te Heimatschutzdivision
• 15te Heimatschutzdivision
• 16te Heimatschutzdivision

 

[BuSOF]

Yep, I guess this is as close as it could possibly get between our opinions.
Numbers seem completely satisfactional to me.
I sugest we keep 1stand 2nd Mechanised divisions in 1 active + 1 partially active (and training brigade) and one reserve brigade, so 1+1+1 mechanised brigades. We could either absorb the 11th Division (HSEH) or go for 3 divisions (1st: 3 brigades; 2nd 3 brigades; 11th: 2 brigades). I sugest we go for 2 divisions plus an armoured regiment (1 or 2 tank battalions + 1 or 2 mech battalions ) at corps level to be used as operational reserve.

Your air force seems fine. I say we turn the canon air defenses into a brigade:
- partly active regiment for centralised AD
- reserve regiment that will be the pool for the FlAK air defenses in the defense areas (which will form part of the HSEL together with the two air force security battalions)

About the Gendarmery I sugest two brigades:
- Mobile brigade (centralised and special forces attached to it: SOF, presidential protection, traffic control both civil and military, national bank security, etc.)
- Territorial brigade (with a regiment in every defense area command)
Reserves will be organic to those two brigades.
I am not sure about bringing the Gendarmery under a field army corps. It would be better to keep it under MoD in peacetime and under General staff in wartime.

HSEH looks OK.

 

[kato]

How about this, for a reform of 1st and 2nd division, without touching 11th:

1st Division

• 2 Mechanized Infantry Brigades

2nd Division

• 1 Training Brigade (motorized infantry in wartime)
• 1 Motorized Infantry Brigade

Training Brigade absorbs both Training Regiments of 1st and 2nd Division to centralize "Army training". All above units partial active to different degrees.

Yes, the Gendarmerie as a "division" has given me some headache too. Better to move it below MoD.

 

[BuSOF]

Frankly I don't see the point of keeping a division composed of two field brigades. IMHO it is better for a smaller military to have divisions of 4 maneuver brigades. In that way two brigades could be kept at the front. another one could be kept at their back facing possible breaches in their positions and the fourth could be kept in reserve in order to rotate the brigades. So that division will be able to wage fighting with great intensity. Two such divisions could perfectly stand up against a possible aggression against Blue.
The other possibility is to have 2 field divisions of 3 brigades and another less capable division in the rear. The "frontal" divisions will be much more stressed and pressured but the "rear" division could funnel attrition replacements and provide brigades to relieve the battleworn frontal brigades and rotate with them.

Otherwise what is the whole idea of having two-brigade divisions? Much more reasonable would be to dump that division level, put the maneuver brigades under corps level, combine the artillery and other support assets of the previous divisions into full-sized brigades and put them also under that corps command.

 

[kato]

Otherwise what is the whole idea of having two-brigade divisions

Bringing it into the 21st Century a bit. Slim divisional outfit with two brigades and specific support assets. Ah well...

IMHO it is better for a smaller military to have divisions of 4 maneuver brigades.

Option 1 : 4-brigade Divisions

1st Division : former 1st and 2nd (2 MechInf Bde, 2 MotInf Bde)
2nd Division (reserve) : former 11th and 12th (4 Inf Bde)
3rd Division (reserve) : former 11th and 12th (4 Inf Bde)
4th Division (reserve) : former 11th and 12th (4 Inf Bde)
Luftwaffe : separate

Alternative e.g.:

1st Division : 1 MechInf Bde, 1 MotInf Bde, 2 Inf Bde
2nd Division : 1 MechInf Bde, 1 MotInf Bde, 2 Inf Bde
3rd Division : 4 Inf Bde
4th Division : 4 Inf Bde

Would be an example of your 2 field division with less capable rear troops.

Numbers wouldn't change at all, i essentially split a Cold-War German division (4-brigade) with its support assets into two when dividing it up earlier.

Much more reasonable would be to dump that division level, put the maneuver brigades under corps level, combine the artillery and other support assets of the previous divisions into full-sized brigades and put them also under that corps command.

Brigades or Brigade Combat Teams? Brrr. Looks so... incapable? Dunno.

But to play with it...

Brigade Combat Teams :

2 Heavy IBCTs (MechInf, Tanks, Artillery)
2 Medium IBCTs (MotInf, Artillery)
12 Territorial IBCTs (splitting Heimatschutzdivisionen)
1 Artillery Command ("command"=brigade-sized)
1 Engineer Command
1 Special Forces Command (SOF, LR Recon, Demo... maybe some EW too)
1 Signals Command
1 Support Command

Each IBCT in this would have about 7 rather homogenous battalions. Alternative to that would be the "American BCT", which would be... two-thirds that size each. Roughly.

Pick one. I can "work" with either the 4-brigade setup or the BCTs.

 

[BuSOF]

Well, I propose:

1st Mechanised Corps (active forces plus reserve)

1st Mechanised division:

+ 11th, 12th, 13th and 14th Mechanised brigades. Each will have:
=> mixed mechanised battalion, two pure mechanised battalions, one motorised battalion, one self-propelled artillery battalion and supporting units
+ Divisional troops (as you post them plus a mixed artillery regiment etc.)

2nd Mechanised division:
+ 21st, 22nd, 23rd and 24th Mechanised brigades. Each will have:
=> mixed mechanised battalion, two pure mechanised battalions, one motorised battalion, one self-propelled artillery battalion and supporting units
+ Divisional troops (as you post them plus a mixed artillery regiment etc.)

A US ACR-type regiment

Corps troops

2nd Grenadier Corps (Heimatschutzen EInsatzunterstuetzung Heer)

A division (or brigade) in each administrative region of 2 to 4 infantry brigades plus corps troops

Gendarmery forces

A mobile brigade including the presidential protection, state security, national bank security, traffic control, military police and special counter insurgency/intelligence units.

A territorial brigade including a gendarmery regiment in every administrative region.

A metropolitan security regiment (light infantry, security duties, plus providing reinforcement for the two brigades when needed)

Some forces directly under General Staff command (including SOF)

Air Force Command

In peacetime 1st Corps is Joint Forces Command and the Air Force Command falls under it. In wartime it transforms in 1st Corps (air force becomes an independent structure) and simultaneously 2nd Corps is formed, while at the same time the gendarmery is shifted under GS.

 

[kato]

Ah, but this is where one big point from the first post comes into play...

It's rather questionable whether we have the money to pay for that. And that's a considerable point.

With traditional numbers per battalion, your proposal would have:
- over 300 tanks
- over 700 IFVs
- over 400 APCs
- over 150 SPH

There's actually simply no way we can pay for that. Just consider the investment, with modern equipment - that would be, even with cheap stuff, about... 2.5 billion for the (additional) tanks, 2.5 billion for the AFVs, 1.5 billion for the SPH. Add the artillery regiments, and some smaller purchases for the territorial defence (e.g. mortars).

That's at least the entire procurement budget for the next 8-9 years. Before we start buying helos or anything else.

We're not defending the Fulda Gap during the Cold War, which would have been defended by something much like your proposol btw, except a bit more tank-heavy (two divisions, one armored, one infantry, plus one inf bde from another div and two ACRs).

I'd call... one third. That's what we can afford really.

Your proposal has:

2 tank btl
8 mixed mech btl
16 mechInf btl
8 motInf btl
8 SPH btl
2 FA btl (towed art) (art rgts)
2 MLRS btl (art rgts)

With one-third, that'd work down to say...

2 tank btl
2 mixed mech btl
6 mechInf btl
2 mixed mot btl (... concentrated AT assets maybe?)
6 motInf btl
4 SPH btl
3 FA btl (towed art)
1 MLRS btl

That'd be 2 mechanised brigades (1 mixed mech, 3 mechInf, 1 SPH), 2 motorized brigades (1 mixed mot, 3 motinf, 1 FA) and one ACR. One artillery regiment instead of the original two.

Equipment in downsized version:
- ~140 tanks
- ~320 IFVs
- ~350 APCs
- ~75 SPH

Hmm. Still a couple dozen million for tanks, something like 1.2 billion for AFVs, 750 million for the SPH. Odds and ends, and we're at 2.5 to 3 billion, or 3 years of procurement budget.

Still, that's about the number i'd aim for.

But - that'd also bring us down to one division, a rather sizable one though. Or we could rather put these as Brigade Combat Teams under Corps Command.

 

[BuSOF]

Allright, do we have an understanding that the Blue armed forces should be structured in:
General Staff

GS Fernspaeh Company

**** Army
** Army Troops
III Light Assault (SOF) Regiment
other units

***Army Corps
** 1st Mechanised Division
* 11th Mechanised Brigade
* 12th Mechanised Brigade
* 13th Mechanised Brigade
* Field Artillery Brigade
* Divisional Troops

** 2nd Grenadier (Heimatschutzen) Division
* 21st Motorised Brigade (DAC Rhein-Neckar)
III 211th Heimatschutzen Regiment
III 212th Engineer Support Group
III 213th Territorial Air Defense Group
III 214th Territorial Support Group
III Feldersatzregiment
Streitkraeftebasis units supporting

* 22nd Motorised Brigade (DAC Heilbronn-Franken)
III 221st Heimatschutzen Regiment
III 222nd Engineer Support Group
III 223rd Territorial Air Defense Group
III 224th Territorial Support Group
III Feldersatzregiment
Streitkraeftebasis units supporting

* 23rd Motorised Brigade (DAC Karlsruhe-Nordschwarzwald)
III 231st Heimatschutzen Regiment
III 232nd Heimatschutzen Regiment
III 233rd Engineer Support Group
III 234th Territorial Air Defense Group
III 235th Territorial Support Group
III Feldersatzregiment
Streitkraeftebasis units supporting

* 24th Motorised Brigade (DAC Südhessen)
III 241st Heimatschutzen Regiment
III 242nd Engineer Support Group
III 243rd Territorial Air Defense Group
III 244th Territorial Support Group
III Feldersatzregiment
Streitkraeftebasis units supporting

* 25th Motorised Brigade (DAC Vorderpfalz)
III 251st Heimatschutzen Regiment
III 252nd Engineer Support Group
III 253rd Territorial Air Defense Group
III 254th Territorial Support Group
III Feldersatzregiment
Streitkraeftebasis units supporting

**** Streitkraeftebasis
including the Gendarmery and its commander also commands the Streitkraeftebasis

** Gendarmery
* Mobile Gendarmery Brigade
II Presidential Protection Group
II Government Security Group
I National Bank Security Unit
III Traffic Control Regiment
- II Military Traffic Escort Group
- II Highway security Group
- II Airport security Group
- II Railway and Riverine Security Group
III Military Police Regiment
II Counter-Intelligence (and Counter-Insurgency) Battalion
I Special Shock Unit
I Helicopter Unit (optional)
* Territorial Gendarmery Brigade
II Metropolitan Gendarmery Battalion
III Rhein-Neckar Gendarmery Regiment
III Heilbronn-Franken Gendarmery Regiment
III Region Karlsruhe-Nordschwarzwald Gendarmery Regiment
III Südhessen Gendarmery Regiment
III Vorderpfalz Gendarmery Regiment

III Metropolitan Security Regiment
- II 1st Urban Light Infantry Battalion
- II 2nd Urban Light Infantry Battalion
- II 3rd Urban Light Infantry Battalion
- II 4th Motorised Infantry Battalion
- II 5th Motorised Infantry Battalion

** other arms

**** Air Force

If we agree on that then we can proceed. Because we've come several times to workable solutions and every time you change the structure.

 

[kato]

Looks good to me.

 

[BuSOF]

Allright. So you agree on most things. Now we have a start. Feel free to correct that order of battle as you will, then we'll discuss things, I'll do that too and then we will have a joint solution.

 

[kato]

***Army Corps
** 1st Mechanised Division
* 11th Mechanised Brigade
* 12th Mechanised Brigade
* 13th Mechanised Brigade
* Field Artillery Brigade
* Divisional Troops

At what kind of size do you see these, in particular the brigades?
Cold War level with 5 combat battalions, or the "modern way" with fewer battalions but (in comparison) very pronounced support and recon capabilities?

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** 2nd Grenadier (Heimatschutzen) Division
* 21st Motorised Brigade (DAC Rhein-Neckar)
III 211th Heimatschutzen Regiment
III 212th Engineer Support Group
III 213th Territorial Air Defense Group
III 214th Territorial Support Group
III Feldersatzregiment
Streitkraeftebasis units supporting

Territorial Air Defense: essentially light AA guns? (20-40mm stuff)
Wouldn't a regiment (III) be a bit oversized for that? I'd suppose a battalion to already be plenty.

Basic structure by your outline:

- light inf : one regiment per DAC (two in DAC Karlsruhe)
- engineers
- air defense
- support
- Feldersatz
- SKB

I'd argue that the support structure (logistics) of these could be included in the SKB. Feldersatz too maybe, as that's primarily an administrative thing.

As the logistics we're talking about here would essentially be confined to a territory, we could include them in the SKB in my opinion.

The SKB as it works in the current German army provides all logistics, maintenance etc except the organic logistics of combat brigades that need to be mobile with those brigades (current logistics structure in Bundeswehr: ~6 btl in Army, ~10 btl in SKB).

That would streamline these a bit into :
- combat regiment (one or two)
- air defense
- engineers
- local SKB support structure (administrative, logistics, various other things)

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If i read that right, that "Metropolitan Security Regiment" (infantry) is part of the Gendarmery? (in addition to the Metropolitan Gendarmery Battalion?)

Would it act as reserve, or be an active asset to the Gendarmery? At what kind of level would you see their equipment and such - more of a heavy police unit with urban combat training and armament for that, or as a "real" light infantry unit with a primary combat task?

 

[kato]

Maybe, as a short interject, the current elements of the Bundeswehr SKB:

1 operational command
1 command support btl (with Operational Command)
2 command support rgt : ea 5 signals btl
2 command support rgt : ea 3/4 signals btl
2 log bdes : ea 2 log, 1 transport, 1 maintenance, 1 field camp btl
2 log rgts : ea 2/3 log btl + stationary log facilities

4 territorial district commands
16 state CMC commands (spread among territorial districts)
8 MP btls (2 for each territorial district)

1 strategic recon command
3 regional strategic recon commands
3 electronic warfare btls (one per regional stratrecon command)

1 guard btl (for defence ministry)
1 psyops btl (+ psyops center)

Also:
- all Bw schools and training facilities
- Military Counterintelligence Forces
- Military Intelligence Forces
- Military Geology Service
- EOD center

In a nutshell anyway.

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I'd propose a similar SKB for Blue, on a smaller footing of course.

Perhaps as following:

** (SKB)
* Army School Command (active)
* Strategic Command (active)
II Strategic Recon Center
II Intelligence + Psyops Center
II Electronic Warfare Center
* Army Support Module (active)
III Logistics Rgt
III Logistics Rgt
III Command Support Rgt
III Logistics Facility Command
* DAC Support Module (partially active, mostly reserve)
III DAC Südhessen SKB Group
III DAC Vorderpfalz SKB Group
III DAC Karlsruhe-Nordschwarzwald SKB Group
III DAC Rhein-Neckar SKB Group
III DAC Heilbronn-Franken SKB Group
III Mannheim SKB Group
* Feldersatz (Reserve)
II Feldersatz Südhessen
II Feldersatz Vorderpfalz
II Feldersatz Karlsruhe-Nordschwarzwald
II Feldersatz Rhein-Neckar
II Feldersatz Heilbronn-Franken
II Feldersatz Mannheim

Military Police would be handled by Gendarmery in this case. I'd leave the Gendarmery as you outlined them.
The above would essentially be the "** other arms".

Each DAC would essentially receive a package consisting of:
III Combat Regiment (plus second for Karlsruhe)
III Engineer Regiment
III Gendarmery regiment
III SKB Module (logistics, CMC, local public relations, Wallmeister, geological and meteorological survey groups)
II Feldersatz battalion

The capital would have similar forces, with the Combat Regiment replaced with a Security Regiment (for urban combat), the Engineer Regiment removed, and the Gendarmery moved down to a battalion.
Hmm - perhaps add a few combat engineer companies to that Security Regiment.

 

[BuSOF]

As you have already made it clear that my previuos numbers are unrealistic I would say that each mechanised brigade will have a tank battalion, a mechanised battalion on IFVs and a mechanised battalion on APCs plus support.

Indeed the territorial AD will be centered around light AAA and MANPADS. The reason why I provide a regiment in each military area is that in case one specific area faces far greater threat it could be reinforced with units from other areas and that way there will already be the structure needed to guide them available.

Similarly to the way you think I sugest that the territorial logistic troops act as the SKB reserve. As for the Feldersatz regiment it could be merged with the Infantry regiment or put under it.

That would streamline these a bit into :
- combat regiment (one or two)
- air defense
- engineers
- local SKB support structure (administrative, logistics, various other things)

Sounds workable.

The Metropolitan Security Regiment as I see it is a light urban warfare unit. As during wartime is very hard (almost impossible) to make a distinction between rioting and diversions by enemy forces it is more appropriate to have one unit deal with both threats. It will be a reserve unit and during peacetime most of its operatives will be part of the riot control or Bereitschaftsgendarmerie and deal with strictly law enforcement. Equipment will be mostly uparmoured military trucks and jeeps plus some 40 APCs. They will have grenade launchers, ATGMs and light mortars. Their peacetime tasks give them an expertise about the terrain they will defend in wartime.

** (SKB)
* Army School Command (active)
* Strategic Command (active)
II Strategic Recon Center
II Intelligence + Psyops Center
II Electronic Warfare Center
* Army Support Module (active)
III Logistics Rgt
III Logistics Rgt
III Command Support Rgt
III Logistics Facility Command
* DAC Support Module (partially active, mostly reserve)
III DAC Südhessen SKB Group
III DAC Vorderpfalz SKB Group
III DAC Karlsruhe-Nordschwarzwald SKB Group
III DAC Rhein-Neckar SKB Group
III DAC Heilbronn-Franken SKB Group
III Mannheim SKB Group

To that point I agree. If the Feldersatz units are kept at battalion level for each area then put them in the infantry regiments plus an additional SKB reserve.

So I say:
Each DAC would essentially receive a package consisting of:
III Combat Regiment of 3-5 battalions plus a Feldersatz battalion
III Engineer Regiment
III Gendarmery regiment
III SKB Module (logistics, CMC, local public relations, Wallmeister, geological and meteorological survey groups)


The capital would have similar forces, with the Combat Regiment replaced with a Security Regiment (for urban combat) with a light engineer battalion included, and the Gendarmery moved down to a battalion.
The Security Regiment could have a few combat engineer companies dispersed.