Gripen E/F

Ryttare

New Member
Well, you are well informed of the E/F changes in the Gripen.

The A to B redesign would have been expected in the initial design of the A/B. The same re the MTOW redesign. Planned for.

Altering the landing gear layout is more radical than those...

If you upgrade a C/D to a E/F, how much is left of the original aircraft?
The B version were envisioned from the beginning, but not ordered or payed for before the A were being manufactured. Increased payload, IFR and NATO pylons with C/D were not a part of the original plan. Plans for a stronger engine and AESA radar was on the other hand envisioned early in development. The extra internal fuel has been a more recent idea, but I think it has found a quite smart solution.

I havent heard anyone calling F-16 with new engines and CFT a completely new aircraft. And whats the difference between a fuel tank on top of the fuselage or wings and pods for landing gear underneath the wing? And F-16 exists with two totally different engines and it's still the same plane, even if it's characteristics may differ somewhat.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
I havent heard anyone calling F-16 with new engines and CFT a completely new aircraft. And whats the difference between a fuel tank on top of the fuselage or wings and pods for landing gear underneath the wing? And F-16 exists with two totally different engines and it's still the same plane, even if it's characteristics may differ somewhat.
Good point. ;)

Though I can't think of any radical redesign of the landing gear config of the F-16 and a CFT is CFT - not more internal fuel. There are several types of radars and other avionics used on the F-16 too. And also thinking of the F-16XL - which was still an F-16...

So is the E/F an evolution or a revolution?
 

Ryttare

New Member
Didn't challenge the numbers. Just used seeing incomparable entities ending up being compared. Natural suspicion. And what do you get for the x 10 development cost. Certainly not a x 10 aircraft, but then what?
I posted it because you asked for what the development cost of Gripen was. I didn't bother editing out the others because I just didn't bother.

But the difference in development cost between Eurofighter and JSF on one hand and Gripen and Rafale has probably many reasons. One is probably that both Eurofighter and JSF are multinational projects, which tend to increase costs. For Eurofighter it's probably also that they started pretty much from scratch in their design, while Saab and Dassault much more built on earlier designs.

For JSF the task to from one basic airframe build three different planes with very different characteristics was probably very challenging. It might also be so that as the plan was to build many planes they thought they could spend more.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
I posted it because you asked for what the development cost of Gripen was. I didn't bother editing out the others because I just didn't bother.

But the difference in development cost between Eurofighter and JSF on one hand and Gripen and Rafale has probably many reasons. One is probably that both Eurofighter and JSF are multinational projects, which tend to increase costs. For Eurofighter it's probably also that they started pretty much from scratch in their design, while Saab and Dassault much more built on earlier designs.

For JSF the task to from one basic airframe build three different planes with very different characteristics was probably very challenging. It might also be so that as the plan was to build many planes they thought they could spend more.
Multinational doesn't give that kind of cost overuns. There is much more R&T in EF, JSF et al, while the Gripen relies on what is already on the shelf, i.e. design an airframe, then do the subsystems integration. That would expalin much.
 

swerve

Super Moderator

Ryttare

New Member
Good point. ;)

Though I can't think of any radical redesign of the landing gear config of the F-16 and a CFT is CFT - not more internal fuel. There are several types of radars and other avionics used on the F-16 too. And also thinking of the F-16XL - which was still an F-16...

So is the E/F an evolution or a revolution?
I see it as an evolution. The revolution was with C/D because it was the step from a domestic fighter for swedish needs to a NATO compatible exportable plane. Compare the increased payload from 3'500 kg to 5'300 kg with C/D, to probably around 6'000 kg with with NG. Ok, the MTOW increases from 14'000 to 16'000, but still.

What makes the new design reasonably simple is that both the new fuel tanks and landing gear is very close to the CoG.

But I have to admit that things still can happen and the devil is in the details. I've been told that what almost killed the whole idea was the fuel tank pressurizing system that had to be totally redesigned.
 

Ryttare

New Member
Multinational doesn't give that kind of cost overuns. There is much more R&T in EF, JSF et al, while the Gripen relies on what is already on the shelf, i.e. design an airframe, then do the subsystems integration. That would expalin much.
Yes, the use of COTS in Gripen is an important part in keeping the costs down and it was also a way of reducing risks by using proven stuff.

But it doesn't explain all of it, and certainly not that EF has twice the development costs of Rafale.
 

ainanup23

New Member
Well undoubtly the presentation was nice in brief . Do u have something on the typhoon and the Mig-31s. They are the main competitor in the race for IAF`s $ 10 billion deal. As I mentioned earlier the American babies stand no chance in the race technologically speaking. Diplomacy have their own pressures. Commercial success will boost Gripen`s chances in winning major fighter deals , but it should have something distinct to stand out in the crowd. Take the SU-30 MKI , they have the thrust vectoring thing.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
The worst thing Saab could do to the Gripen would be to add more internal fuel, put in a bigger low bypass engine, lengthen the fuselage etc. You would have to completely redesign the wing, fuselage and landing gear to support the larger weight and internal volume.

The F-16 experienced similar growth. Weight and drag went up and the wing area stayed the same. The original Block 15's were extremely agile and light while the current Block 52's are significantly worse from a performance perspective.

If Saab put AESA into the Gripen similar to the Block 60 F-16 then it would be very good and performance would not be reduced. Using light avionics you could increase the firepower of the Gripen without addign weight.

If Saab put some small conformal tanks on the Gripen range would be increased slightly and it would actually travel faster compared to an aircraft with underwing fuel tanks. Having this as an option would be good for sales.

If Saab wanted a higher performance engine for the Gripen it has a couple options for lower byspass higher thrust designs but it has to seriously consider the consequences of putting in a low bypass engine.

The General electric F404 are fairly reliable but have average power to weight ratio considering its large size. This is because its a high bypass ratio engine by fighter jet standards which gives it fairly average supersonic and high altitude performance. A high bypass design however provides excellent subsonic and low altitude performance for short runways. The F404 is perfectly suited even though its quite old now. The F414 is the perfect step up, its the same size and weight but just runs hotter using new technology to produce more thrust without a reduction in fuel consumption.

A hot running low bypass F-119 style engine that could fit the Gripen may potentially offer over 50% more thrust while being lighter and smaller than the F404. It would instantly allow the Gripen to supercruise and put it into a whole new class. The down side though is that a low bypass design is less fuel effecient when travelling at subsonic speeds and will reduce endurance. I think this would be a bad thing. This is why passenger aircraft have high bypass engines as they consume very little fuel for the amount of thrust they put out. They are also better suited to subsonic speeds and have poor thrust levels considering their massive size.

Saab is obviously adding AESA. The APG-80 from the Block 60 F-16 could fit and would definitely increase performance.
 

ainanup23

New Member
The worst thing Saab could do to the Gripen would be to add more internal fuel, put in a bigger low bypass engine, lengthen the fuselage etc. You would have to completely redesign the wing, fuselage and landing gear to support the larger weight and internal volume.

The F-16 experienced similar growth. Weight and drag went up and the wing area stayed the same. The original Block 15's were extremely agile and light while the current Block 52's are significantly worse from a performance perspective.

If Saab put AESA into the Gripen similar to the Block 60 F-16 then it would be very good and performance would not be reduced. Using light avionics you could increase the firepower of the Gripen without addign weight.

If Saab put some small conformal tanks on the Gripen range would be increased slightly and it would actually travel faster compared to an aircraft with underwing fuel tanks. Having this as an option would be good for sales.

If Saab wanted a higher performance engine for the Gripen it has a couple options for lower byspass higher thrust designs but it has to seriously consider the consequences of putting in a low bypass engine.

The General electric F404 are fairly reliable but have average power to weight ratio considering its large size. This is because its a high bypass ratio engine by fighter jet standards which gives it fairly average supersonic and high altitude performance. A high bypass design however provides excellent subsonic and low altitude performance for short runways. The F404 is perfectly suited even though its quite old now. The F414 is the perfect step up, its the same size and weight but just runs hotter using new technology to produce more thrust without a reduction in fuel consumption.

A hot running low bypass F-119 style engine that could fit the Gripen may potentially offer over 50% more thrust while being lighter and smaller than the F404. It would instantly allow the Gripen to supercruise and put it into a whole new class. The down side though is that a low bypass design is less fuel effecient when travelling at subsonic speeds and will reduce endurance. I think this would be a bad thing. This is why passenger aircraft have high bypass engines as they consume very little fuel for the amount of thrust they put out. They are also better suited to subsonic speeds and have poor thrust levels considering their massive size.

Saab is obviously adding AESA. The APG-80 from the Block 60 F-16 could fit and would definitely increase performance.
.

If Saab is successful in adding AESA to the Gripen then you have a punch to this fighting falcon. The Rafale has been a commercial failure and among the European developer Typhoon remain a tough competitor, but it`s of different class being twin-engined and heavier. Japaneses Air Force is eyeing the Typhoon as the F-22 is being denied to them. Gripen can be a choice for them but it remains 2 be seen as how well and fast Saab is able to integrate the new AESA under development with Ericson.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Saab is obviously adding AESA. The APG-80 from the Block 60 F-16 could fit and would definitely increase performance.
Ericsson is working with CEC-Marconi (?) on developing an AESA version of the PS-05/A currently equipping the Gripen. The demonstrator is called NORA and is based on US technology (Raytheon, iirc).
 

Ryttare

New Member
The worst thing Saab could do to the Gripen would be to add more internal fuel, put in a bigger low bypass engine, lengthen the fuselage etc. You would have to completely redesign the wing, fuselage and landing gear to support the larger weight and internal volume.
The empty weight will increase with 300 kg, but the fuselage will remain the same length and other outher dimensions. The landing gear will be different with bígger wheels and brakes.

If Saab wanted a higher performance engine for the Gripen it has a couple options for lower byspass higher thrust designs but it has to seriously consider the consequences of putting in a low bypass engine.

The General electric F404 are fairly reliable but have average power to weight ratio considering its large size. This is because its a high bypass ratio engine by fighter jet standards which gives it fairly average supersonic and high altitude performance. A high bypass design however provides excellent subsonic and low altitude performance for short runways. The F404 is perfectly suited even though its quite old now. The F414 is the perfect step up, its the same size and weight but just runs hotter using new technology to produce more thrust without a reduction in fuel consumption.
Reportedly there has been a number of different engines considered, like the EJ200 and an upgraded RM12. The F414 seems to be the simplest, most low risk choice with a good growth path and it's a no brainer from a technical point that it been chosen. Saab has aid that they are very satisfied with it's fuel economy.

A hot running low bypass F-119 style engine that could fit the Gripen may potentially offer over 50% more thrust while being lighter and smaller than the F404. It would instantly allow the Gripen to supercruise and put it into a whole new class. The down side though is that a low bypass design is less fuel effecient when travelling at subsonic speeds and will reduce endurance. I think this would be a bad thing. This is why passenger aircraft have high bypass engines as they consume very little fuel for the amount of thrust they put out. They are also better suited to subsonic speeds and have poor thrust levels considering their massive size.
Gripen already has supercruise, admittedly not in the F-22 class, and F414 would hopefully increase that.
The demand from the customers seems to be to get longer loiter times, and a relatively high bypass engine is logical. Having a more fuel efficient engine gives more time on afterburner so practical performance would probably be better anyway.

But it's not just a matter of engines, air intakes are also important. If you would combine a relatively high bypass engine with relatively small intakes, couldn't that give the best of two worlds? Good fuel economy at low speed and low thrust, and good thrust at high speed? Granted, for hauling big payloads with high thrust at low speeds it wouldn't be optimal. But Gripen is no bomb truck for deep strikes anyway, it's more geared towards CAS, CAP, maritime patrol and anti shipping. Also with a powerful engine like the F414 it might be quite capable anyway.
 
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Ryttare

New Member
Ericsson is working with CEC-Marconi (?) on developing an AESA version of the PS-05/A currently equipping the Gripen. The demonstrator is called NORA and is based on US technology (Raytheon, iirc).
The NORA AESA is a bit difficult to define, because it seems to be many different possible solutions depending on the time frame. One is to work together with Selex (former Marconi) on an all European solution, but it will not be available for some years. In the short term the path is to work with american partners, exactly in what way I don't know. Raytheon has offered to equip Gripen with a modified version of one of it's AESA's.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
AFAIK Raytheon was just selected to provide a single array which is used on the demonstrator, while Ericsson and Selex are working on an entire european array to equipe production models of the NORA.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
.

If Saab is successful in adding AESA to the Gripen then you have a punch to this fighting falcon. The Rafale has been a commercial failure and among the European developer Typhoon remain a tough competitor, but it`s of different class being twin-engined and heavier. Japaneses Air Force is eyeing the Typhoon as the F-22 is being denied to them. Gripen can be a choice for them but it remains 2 be seen as how well and fast Saab is able to integrate the new AESA under development with Ericson.
there is no way something like Gripen can possibly match the requirements of JASDF if you look at who they are up against.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
AFAIK Raytheon was just selected to provide a single array which is used on the demonstrator, while Ericsson and Selex are working on an entire european array to equipe production models of the NORA.
Isnt't the Raytheon array is being used in the same way as Thales used their array of US T/R modules, i.e. stick it on the front of their radar & use it as a development tool, allowing them to test the software modifications necessary for AESA? Thales ditched theirs as soon as they had all-European T/R modules. IIRC, Ericsson produced their own experimental array a while ago, & flew it in a testbed (C-130?). Selex already has an AESA fighter radar, so between them, they should be able to push things along pretty quickly, funding permitting. European-sourced T/R modules are no longer a problem.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
The NORA AESA is a bit difficult to define, because it seems to be many different possible solutions depending on the time frame. One is to work together with Selex (former Marconi) on an all European solution, but it will not be available for some years. In the short term the path is to work with american partners, exactly in what way I don't know. Raytheon has offered to equip Gripen with a modified version of one of it's AESA's.
Ah yes, Selex was the name. (Hence the question mark in my post.)
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Well undoubtly the presentation was nice in brief . Do u have something on the typhoon and the Mig-31s. They are the main competitor in the race for IAF`s $ 10 billion deal. As I mentioned earlier the American babies stand no chance in the race technologically speaking. Diplomacy have their own pressures. Commercial success will boost Gripen`s chances in winning major fighter deals , but it should have something distinct to stand out in the crowd. Take the SU-30 MKI , they have the thrust vectoring thing.
I've downloaded the presentations of the Typhoon/Gripen/JSF for the Norwegian fighter competition from the web. They must still be out there somewhere, I guess.

EDIT: Ah, dug the url up, they're no more on the web. I only have them as pdf.
 
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