Flanker Export Thread

[Toblerone]

Doesn't a country like Indonesia need aircraft with huge range? What area will the Gripen toy aircraft be able to cover, that isn't Sweden...

 

[RobWilliams]

Depends where their bases are in relation to the likely areas required for interception.

 

[tonnyc]

Doesn't a country like Indonesia need aircraft with huge range? What area will the Gripen toy aircraft be able to cover, that isn't Sweden...

Unless the Flankers have teleportation, there is no way they can cover a big country fully. They may have the range, but even at maximum speed it will take time to reach the intercept location. An attack could have come and go before the Flankers can intercept.

The only way an intercept can be made in a timely manner is to have airbases spread in various locations. But if you have those bases, then the need for super long range becomes diminished and smaller aircrafts become a viable option.

For example, a centrally located airbase in Sulawesi is about 1500-2500 km away from Sumatra (depending on which point in Sumatra you want to go to). Sumatra is separated from Peninsular Malaysia by the narrow Straits of Malaya. So if there is an aircraft flying from Peninsular Malaya to Sumatra that needs to be intercepted, the Flankers from Sulawesi will need more than an hour, probably two. Plenty of time for that aircraft to do whatever it is that it wants to do and head back. Meanwhile, the length of Sumatra is 1790 km or 967 nautical miles. A base right in the middle of the island means that any aircraft with at least a CAP radius of 500 nm will cover the island (and be able to reach points in Peninsular Malaysia). This aircraft will be able to intercept that aircraft in, depending on where the aircraft is, less than half hour.

Repeat that for other locations as appropriate.

 

[Toblerone]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Indonesian_Air_Force
If that list is accurate then they have a tragically low number of f-16 and su-27/su-30 for air control. I'm not convinced by your strategically placed airbases idea.

On another note, do the exported su-35 have the Irbis-E?

 

[Feanor]

Unless the Flankers have teleportation, there is no way they can cover a big country fully. They may have the range, but even at maximum speed it will take time to reach the intercept location. An attack could have come and go before the Flankers can intercept.

The only way an intercept can be made in a timely manner is to have airbases spread in various locations. But if you have those bases, then the need for super long range becomes diminished and smaller aircrafts become a viable option.

For example, a centrally located airbase in Sulawesi is about 1500-2500 km away from Sumatra (depending on which point in Sumatra you want to go to). Sumatra is separated from Peninsular Malaysia by the narrow Straits of Malaya. So if there is an aircraft flying from Peninsular Malaya to Sumatra that needs to be intercepted, the Flankers from Sulawesi will need more than an hour, probably two. Plenty of time for that aircraft to do whatever it is that it wants to do and head back. Meanwhile, the length of Sumatra is 1790 km or 967 nautical miles. A base right in the middle of the island means that any aircraft with at least a CAP radius of 500 nm will cover the island (and be able to reach points in Peninsular Malaysia). This aircraft will be able to intercept that aircraft in, depending on where the aircraft is, less than half hour.

Repeat that for other locations as appropriate.

I think the bigger issue is that they will have 3 types of aircraft in very small quantities. I also have to keep wondering why do they constantly change the type of Flanker they buy. The Su-35S is expensive and yet another new type. Why not just more Su-30MK2s?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

We now have one squadron on South-Sulawesi with a mixture of 2 Su-27SK, 3 Su-27SKM, 2 Su-30MK and 9 Su-30MK2.
One Hawk 109/209 squadron at West-Kalimantan and one in North-West-Sumatra, and one squadron of second hand upgraded to F-16C/D Block 52- in that zame airbase in Northwest-Sumatra.
Also in East-Jawa a squadron of (grounded?) F-5E/Fs, one of T-50s and one with (as far as i know) F-16A/B Block 15OCUs in the same airbase.

For some reason our armed forces have the behaviour the buy their weaponsystems in small quantities but from many different kind... (Exceptions are the Anoa APCs, Marders, VABs, Scorpion 90, BMP-3F and the Leopard 2A4 MBTs)

 

[Feanor]

We now have one squadron on South-Sulawesi with a mixture of 2 Su-27SK, 3 Su-27SKM, 2 Su-30MK and 9 Su-30MK2.
One Hawk 109/209 squadron at West-Kalimantan and one in North-West-Sumatra, and one squadron of second hand upgraded to F-16C/D Block 52- in that zame airbase in Northwest-Sumatra.
Also in East-Jawa a squadron of (grounded?) F-5E/Fs, one of T-50s and one with (as far as i know) F-16A/B Block 15OCUs in the same airbase.

For some reason our armed forces have the behaviour the buy their weaponsystems in small quantities but from many different kind... (Exceptions are the Anoa APCs, Marders, VABs, Scorpion 90, BMP-3F and the Leopard 2A4 MBTs)

I thought the SKs and MKs were upgraded to match the SKM and MK2. No?

 

[safriz]

Iranians are reporting that all defense deals with Russia have been delayed as Putin cancelled S-300 sales. The delayed defense deals include possible sales of SU 35 to Iran

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I thought the SKs and MKs were upgraded to match the SKM and MK2. No?

Maybe there are plans for it, but i dont know anything about contracts signed for the upgrades..

 

[tonnyc]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Indonesian_Air_Force
If that list is accurate then they have a tragically low number of f-16 and su-27/su-30 for air control. I'm not convinced by your strategically placed airbases idea.

On another note, do the exported su-35 have the Irbis-E?

Err, I don't need to convince you. Go look up where the Indonesian Air Force's jet fighters are based. If you have extra time, look up where the planned new air force bases are too. If you still remain unconvinced, that's fine with me. The small number of jet fighters is not a reflection of doctrine, but rather troubles with funding and procurement strategy (or rather, the lack of them).

And no, we don't know if the Su-35S will have Irbis-E. I can't even be sure that there will be a contract. To paraphrase Ananda, there's nothing certain until the ink is dry. Heck, even if the ink has dried there can be stumbling blocks still.

I think the bigger issue is that they will have 3 types of aircraft in very small quantities. I also have to keep wondering why do they constantly change the type of Flanker they buy. The Su-35S is expensive and yet another new type. Why not just more Su-30MK2s?

While I can't prove anything, I suspect the reasoning is not technical or strategic in nature. The justifications are, but the actual reasons not so much. Because having Su-27 SK, Su-27 SKM, Su-30 MK, Su-30 MK2, and Su-35S all at once in very small quantities does not make sense from a technical or strategic standpoint. It would make more sense to phase out the Su-27 completely, buy more Su-30 MK2, perhaps upgraded with current avionics, and upgrade the current Su-30 MK2 to the same standard.

 

[Haavarla]

Unless the Flankers have teleportation, there is no way they can cover a big country fully. They may have the range, but even at maximum speed it will take time to reach the intercept location. An attack could have come and go before the Flankers can intercept.

The only way an intercept can be made in a timely manner is to have airbases spread in various locations. But if you have those bases, then the need for super long range becomes diminished and smaller aircrafts become a viable option.

For example, a centrally located airbase in Sulawesi is about 1500-2500 km away from Sumatra (depending on which point in Sumatra you want to go to). Sumatra is separated from Peninsular Malaysia by the narrow Straits of Malaya. So if there is an aircraft flying from Peninsular Malaya to Sumatra that needs to be intercepted, the Flankers from Sulawesi will need more than an hour, probably two. Plenty of time for that aircraft to do whatever it is that it wants to do and head back. Meanwhile, the length of Sumatra is 1790 km or 967 nautical miles. A base right in the middle of the island means that any aircraft with at least a CAP radius of 500 nm will cover the island (and be able to reach points in Peninsular Malaysia). This aircraft will be able to intercept that aircraft in, depending on where the aircraft is, less than half hour.

Repeat that for other locations as appropriate.

And then there is the strategical/tactical aspect. You do not place the few airbases you have close to any borders. But rather quite some distance inland, that way you are better off getting early warning of any attacks incoming. Airbases are high target value.

 

[Haavarla]

I thought the SKs and MKs were upgraded to match the SKM and MK2. No?

I do not think they are.
But the IndAF has been planning a major overhaul and upgrade on their whole Flanker fleet for years.

I'm 99,9% certain such deal will come this year or in next year.

Here is some idea about the newer capabilities of Su-35S:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBe4YXmBusU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNensHvHkmo

PS, there are some advs, but the takeaway is when the test pilots talk about how the selfprotection suite and target accusition system are much more automated and enhanced vs older variant of Flankers.

 

[tonnyc]

And then there is the strategical/tactical aspect. You do not place the few airbases you have close to any borders. But rather quite some distance inland, that way you are better off getting early warning of any attacks incoming. Airbases are high target value.

Of course. If we look at the locations of the airbases in the region on the map, we should see this accounted for whenever possible. In a few cases geography forced the airbases to be relatively close to the border, but usually those are "can't be helped" situations.

 

[Haavarla]

Of course. If we look at the locations of the airbases in the region on the map, we should see this accounted for whenever possible. In a few cases geography forced the airbases to be relatively close to the border, but usually those are "can't be helped" situations.

And just like we see the Russian going largely for a Hi/heavy combo of Flankers as their mainstay fleet(Mig-31 too).
And like you say, their AB are located way inland, away from their borders.
Which is where jets like the Flanker operate just fine.
They do need Tanker support or perhaps extra wet bags from time to time, depending on mission, but they also can do without.
Much less with lighter jets like Mig-29, F-16 etc etc.
Tanker support raise the co$t of service any AF quite a bit, even if the oil price is low.

Anyway, Indonesia is a large country, and they do have large Sea area too.
If they first have decided to field a limited number of jets, why not just go for Flankers.
At some point their have to scuttle the older variants like Su-27's.
So i do not see any negativity with the divercity of different Flanker variant in their Fleet.

Don't know about the Air 2 sea weapons in the Indo AF, but the Flankers should have little problems carry some larger sticks for such missions.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

And just like we see the Russian going largely for a Hi/heavy combo of Flankers as their mainstay fleet(Mig-31 too).
And like you say, their AB are located way inland, away from their borders.
Which is where jets like the Flanker operate just fine.
They do need Tanker support or perhaps extra wet bags from time to time, depending on mission, but they also can do without.
Much less with lighter jets like Mig-29, F-16 etc etc.
Tanker support raise the co$t of service any AF quite a bit, even if the oil price is low.

Anyway, Indonesia is a large country, and they do have large Sea area too.
If they first have decided to field a limited number of jets, why not just go for Flankers.
At some point their have to scuttle the older variants like Su-27's.
So i do not see any negativity with the divercity of different Flanker variant in their Fleet.

Don't know about the Air 2 sea weapons in the Indo AF, but the Flankers should have little problems carry some larger sticks for such missions.

Thats right, even SkU 11 uses a mixture of Sukhoi variants, its still from one country and one manufacturer, Thats more practical and cost efficient than at Iswahyudi AB.
(BTW, is the Hawk Mk53 of SkU 15 now completely retired?)

Photos on internet have proved that Indonesian Su-30s are able to carry the Kh-31.
"They do need Tanker support or perhaps extra wet bags from time to time, "
We only have one KC-130B tanker....

 

[tonnyc]

And just like we see the Russian going largely for a Hi/heavy combo of Flankers as their mainstay fleet(Mig-31 too).
And like you say, their AB are located way inland, away from their borders.
Which is where jets like the Flanker operate just fine.
They do need Tanker support or perhaps extra wet bags from time to time, depending on mission, but they also can do without.
Much less with lighter jets like Mig-29, F-16 etc etc.
Tanker support raise the co$t of service any AF quite a bit, even if the oil price is low.

Anyway, Indonesia is a large country, and they do have large Sea area too.
If they first have decided to field a limited number of jets, why not just go for Flankers.
At some point their have to scuttle the older variants like Su-27's.
So i do not see any negativity with the divercity of different Flanker variant in their Fleet.

Don't know about the Air 2 sea weapons in the Indo AF, but the Flankers should have little problems carry some larger sticks for such missions.

Dude, you did not spend the time and effort to look things up, do you?

Nobody says the Su-35 is a bad aircraft, but you really are missing the context. Again, I really suggest that people who are interested in the whys to look up where the bases are on a map. There is a reason why there are bases in Pekanbaru and Pontianak instead of just relying on that single squadron of Flankers in Makassar.

It's highly likely that some type of Flankers will be acquired, but if you have followed Indonesian procurement process in the past you will see why Ananda said it ain't finished until the ink is dry.

Indonesia runs a mix of heavy, medium, and light fighters. None of them are in adequate numbers. If Sukhoi bags this current round of procurement, Saab and Lockheed will just try again in two-three years, and if Sukhoi doesn't get this one they will just try again in two-three years.

As for whether having multiple types of Flankers in small numbers have no negative aspects... well, let's just say instead that there are significant positive aspects in keeping a sufficient number of aircrafts of the same type in your fleet. Positive aspects that Indonesia are missing out by having four different types of Flankers in their fleet. Five if the Su-35 deal goes through.

 

[Haavarla]

Dude, you did not spend the time and effort to look things up, do you?

Nobody says the Su-35 is a bad aircraft, but you really are missing the context. Again, I really suggest that people who are interested in the whys to look up where the bases are on a map. There is a reason why there are bases in Pekanbaru and Pontianak instead of just relying on that single squadron of Flankers in Makassar.

It's highly likely that some type of Flankers will be acquired, but if you have followed Indonesian procurement process in the past you will see why Ananda said it ain't finished until the ink is dry.

Indonesia runs a mix of heavy, medium, and light fighters. None of them are in adequate numbers. If Sukhoi bags this current round of procurement, Saab and Lockheed will just try again in two-three years, and if Sukhoi doesn't get this one they will just try again in two-three years.

As for whether having multiple types of Flankers in small numbers have no negative aspects... well, let's just say instead that there are significant positive aspects in keeping a sufficient number of aircrafts of the same type in your fleet. Positive aspects that Indonesia are missing out by having four different types of Flankers in their fleet. Five if the Su-35 deal goes through.

The Su-35S being bad or not, is beside the point here..

The Su-27SK and Su-27SKM is the same jet(minor upgrade on radar). That goes for Su-30MK=/= Su-30MK2 as well.
So in essence, they have two Flanker variants, not four.
It does not matter anyway, cause if they choose to upgrade them, they will get the same level and type of subsystems and radar upgrade package.

It will be the same upgrade package as Su-27SM3 and Su-30M2 currently in VKS service.
Those two Flankers have identical radar and subsystems.

And the best part is, they are all from the same factory supplier(KnAAZ).
As is the Su-35S.
As i said i do not see any negative point on this.
If you think its better to diversify this with different types of jets from different countries and factories.. well its not.
And certainly not for Indonesia with a limited defence budget.

 

[Haavarla]

Thats right, even SkU 11 uses a mixture of Sukhoi variants, its still from one country and one manufacturer, Thats more practical and cost efficient than at Iswahyudi AB.
(BTW, is the Hawk Mk53 of SkU 15 now completely retired?)

Photos on internet have proved that Indonesian Su-30s are able to carry the Kh-31.
"They do need Tanker support or perhaps extra wet bags from time to time, "
We only have one KC-130B tanker....

Yes. Also, the older Flanker will probably not get an IFR eighter and cannot carry wet bags.
Not sure about the Su-30MK2 though..
Only the Su-35S i think.

 

[Feanor]

The Su-35S being bad or not, is beside the point here..

The Su-27SK and Su-27SKM is the same jet(minor upgrade on radar). That goes for Su-30MK=/= Su-30MK2 as well.

Apparently the SM package includes integration of PGMs. Crews of Su-27SM squadrons in Russia have been practicing strike missions.

So in essence, they have two Flanker variants, not four.

I'm more willing to buy the argument that the SKM and MK2, as well as the SK and MK, are the same except for single versus two-seaters.

It does not matter anyway, cause if they choose to upgrade them, they will get the same level and type of subsystems and radar upgrade package.

It will be the same upgrade package as Su-27SM3 and Su-30M2 currently in VKS service.
Those two Flankers have identical radar and subsystems.

And the best part is, they are all from the same factory supplier(KnAAZ).

In other words, it's possible to increase the level of commonality. But that doesn't change the problematic procurement policies.

As is the Su-35S.
As i said i do not see any negative point on this.
If you think its better to diversify this with different types of jets from different countries and factories.. well its not.
And certainly not for Indonesia with a limited defence budget.

It certainly would have made more sense for Indonesia to initially opt for the MK2 and nothing but. But I don't see the rationale in now opting for the Su-35S. It's a brand new, relatively expensive jet, that differs very significantly from all currently operated types. It's true it has more commonality with other Flankers then say a Gripen would, but that doesn't make it a good choice. They'd be better off with more MK2s at a lower price tag, with less difficulty training pilots and obtaining spares.

 

[tonnyc]

Havaarla, look, it's obvious now that you have no intention of spending the time and effort to understand the context with regard to Indonesia and the Southeast Asia region. Instead you are more interested in defending the Su-35 sale.

E.g., you say that if Indonesia chose to to upgrade their Flanker fleet they will be able to get the same upgrade package and end up with very similar aircrafts. Guess what, you are right, and still misses the point, which is that so far they have not.

E.g., you tried to contrast the multiple Flanker types with diversifying into different types of jets from different countries and different factories. Nobody says it's better, man. And yet Indonesia does exactly that. Part of it is due to lack of coherent procurement plan, but part of it is because Indonesia runs a heavy/med/light mixed fleet. When Toblerone asked why Saab offered Gripen, that's because Gripen can slot into the light fighters niche. And why does Indonesia use light fighters? Because a centralized heavy fighter squadron can not respond to incidents far away in a timely manner even when it is technically within range. And if you do dispersed bases that can intercept in a timely manner, you can make do with a more economical aircraft with less range and payload.

Anyway, at this point I am repeating myself. So I will bow out. If you want to discuss the Flankers in the context of Indonesia, feel free to go to the Indonesian Air Force thread. You probably don't care about it though, other than to make sure that the Flanker name is not besmirched somehow. Again, Flankers are very good aircrafts and no one is trying to besmirch the Flanker's reputation.