F-35 Program - General Discussion

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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
south said:
Looks aalright, if not a little 'heavy' IMHO... I'd be interested to see what fuel weight they are taking off at.

Kinematics was never going to be its strongest point anyway...
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I suppose that depends on the configuration... You don't see many display aircraft lugging targetting and ECM pods, for very good reasons.

Yet the F-35 does, all day every day...
 
aussienscale

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
ADMk2 said:
I suppose that depends on the configuration... You don't see many display aircraft lugging targetting and ECM pods, for very good reasons.

Yet the F-35 does, all day every day...
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Exactly right AD, this is what people just do not get, this is a combat ready aircraft, load weapons and it is ready to go, every other plane has been slicked for airshow performances and their tricks, something they can't do in their real life combat configuration.

The F-35 can pull moves like that all day long with full fuel and full internal weapons load out and not skip a beat ! Now compare that to a comparable load out for an F-15, 16, 18 or whatever and see what flight restrictions come into play ? have a look at what they would dump before they even consider going to play with other planes ?

Cheers
 
S

south

Well-Known Member
aussienscale said:
Exactly right AD, this is what people just do not get, this is a combat ready aircraft, load weapons and it is ready to go, every other plane has been slicked for airshow performances and their tricks, something they can't do in their real life combat configuration.

The F-35 can pull moves like that all day long with full fuel and full internal weapons load out and not skip a beat ! Now compare that to a comparable load out for an F-15, 16, 18 or whatever and see what flight restrictions come into play ? have a look at what they would dump before they even consider going to play with other planes ?

Cheers
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Gents you need to be careful what you are comparing, and why.

For example, pretty much any aircraft in production has internal EW systems (SH, late model F-15, Typhoon, Late model F16, Gripen, Rafale, SU35) etc. The reason you don't see aircraft with EW pods, is 1) they are mostly internal now, and 2) it doesn't matter. For example the 8222 pod weighs about 100kg, and has a very small cross section. The effect that has on performance is negligible. Similar for targeting pods.

WRT the F-35 display, the performance is fine. It is what it was designed to be, which is relatively modest, when you compare it to its current peers and or threats (SU35, Raptor, PAKFA- remember the F-35 will be with us for at least 30 years), instead of 1970's generation teen series fighters. However if you assess it with a critical eye, you can see times where it appeared, to me at least, quite slow to unload alpha, and slow to roll. Will that effect its combat performance? not really. Is it a slight on what LM have achieved with a single engine fighter with 18klb of internal fuel and 5klb of internal weapons? not really. Would I prefer to be in a SU30/35? not at all (except at the merge).

What matters with the F-35 is the LO, and the sensor fusion. If LM make it do what it says on the tin (and it seems that they have been mostly successful from what you can read open source), then it will be a winner.
 
A

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
south said:
Gents you need to be careful what you are comparing, and why.

For example, pretty much any aircraft in production has internal EW systems (SH, late model F-15, Typhoon, Late model F16, Gripen, Rafale, SU35) etc. The reason you don't see aircraft with EW pods, is 1) they are mostly internal now, and 2) it doesn't matter. For example the 8222 pod weighs about 100kg, and has a very small cross section. The effect that has on performance is negligible. Similar for targeting pods.

WRT the F-35 display, the performance is fine. It is what it was designed to be, which is relatively modest, when you compare it to its current peers and or threats (SU35, Raptor, PAKFA- remember the F-35 will be with us for at least 30 years), instead of 1970's generation teen series fighters. However if you assess it with a critical eye, you can see times where it appeared, to me at least, quite slow to unload alpha, and slow to roll. Will that effect its combat performance? not really. Is it a slight on what LM have achieved with a single engine fighter with 18klb of internal fuel and 5klb of internal weapons? not really. Would I prefer to be in a SU30/35? not at all (except at the merge).

What matters with the F-35 is the LO, and the sensor fusion. If LM make it do what it says on the tin (and it seems that they have been mostly successful from what you can read open source), then it will be a winner.
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With respect to external stores in particular, I understand that they significantly impact drag and more importantly agility with respect to the G forces they can tolerate. Whilst your airframe might be 9G capable, if your pods aren't, and you rely on them for a significant part of your combat effect, then any airframe rating really doesn't matter as the restrictions in place on something you can't just punch off, will remain in place all the time.

In terms of the current F-35 flight routine, that isn't the full extent of it's capability nor envelope either, being restricted under Block 3i and the 'full' envelope not being released until Block 3F.

In any case the demonstration routine has achieved it's intended effect of putting to bed once and for all any un-substantiated claims about it being a 'dog' performance-wise.
 
J

Jkc13

New Member
Problems

Overall, the F-35 has a great potential and has the ability to continue American air superioarity. However, that ability is hindered by the several problems it faces. For example, the ejection seat on the F-35A. It is unable to support pilots out of a certain weight range. I also saw that pilots were passing out from a lack of oxygen and so on. Basically, the Air Force, Marines and Navy inherit these problems for about $100 million a piece. Prices need to come down and waulity needs to go up.
 
oldsig127

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Jkc13 said:
Overall, the F-35 has a great potential and has the ability to continue American air superioarity. However, that ability is hindered by the several problems it faces. For example, the ejection seat on the F-35A. It is unable to support pilots out of a certain weight range. I also saw that pilots were passing out from a lack of oxygen and so on. Basically, the Air Force, Marines and Navy inherit these problems for about $100 million a piece. Prices need to come down and waulity needs to go up.
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Amazing stuff. You do know that the seats in many aircraft including the F-18 are weight limited and a danger to pilots outside the range? Or that the oxygen starvation issue is also found in F-22, F-18 and T-45C ?

Prices *are* going down, quality is less of an issue than the press would have you believe because they're stubbornly unwilling to provide context that might undercut the story they want to sell

oldsig
 
SpazSinbad

SpazSinbad

Active Member
Jkc13 said:
Overall, the F-35 has a great potential and has the ability to continue American air superioarity. However, that ability is hindered by the several problems it faces. For example, the ejection seat on the F-35A. It is unable to support pilots out of a certain weight range. I also saw that pilots were passing out from a lack of oxygen and so on. Basically, the Air Force, Marines and Navy inherit these problems for about $100 million a piece. Prices need to come down and waulity needs to go up.
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Agree with 'oldsig127' about price coming down for the LRIP F-35s (generalization - latest SAR will verify this). As for the ejection seat the issue of weight (for the lowest weight ever for any western ejection seat) has been fixed by three things:

1. HMDS III helmet weight reduced
2. Switch on ejection seat for very low weight pilots to delay a function
3. Cloth panel fitted between parachute risers on all ejection seat parachutes

Internet details (one of many examples): http://aviationweek.com/defense/us-air-force-clears-lightweight-pilots-fly-f-35

F-35 OBOGS issues was confined to one AFB LUKE with a few cases. Only today the USN (because they have many OBOGS issues on all their fighter/trainer jets) have joined with USAF to investigate various OBOGS and other 'hypoxic' issues. Whilst already the JPO have tasked Honeywell to improve the F-35 OBOGS.

Air Force Magazine
 
John Newman

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Agree with oldsig127 and SpazSinbad too.

And talking of price going down (cost of an F-35A model), and production numbers going up (all models), here's a list from Lots 1-10 (including price, in US$), Lots 11-14 (no price as yet) but with total airframe numbers per lot.

Lots 1-8 exclude engine price:

* Lot 1 - 2 aircraft - F-35A - $221.2m each
* Lot 2 - 12 aircraft - F-35A/B - $161.7m - (av cost both A&B)
* Lot 3 - 18 aircraft - F-35A/B - $128.2m - (av cost both A&B) – engine $16m
* Lot 4 - 32 aircraft - F-35A – $111.6m
* Lot 5 - 32 aircraft - F-35A – $107.0m
* Lot 6 - 36 aircraft - F-35A – $103.0m
* Lot 7 - 35 aircraft - F-35A – $98.0m
* Lot 8 - 43 aircraft - F-35A – $94.8m

Lot 9 onwards include engine price:

* Lot 9 - 55 aircraft - F-35A - $102.1m - (inc engine) - engine $13.3m
* Lot 10 - 90 aircraft - F-35A - $94.6m - (inc engine)
* Lot 11 - 141 aircraft - F-35A - $???m – unknown as yet
* Lot 12 - 147 aircraft
* Lot 13 - 156 aircraft
* Lot 14 - 154 aircraft

Lot 10 aircraft (delivery 2018), is the lot where an F-35A (inc engine) was below US$100m (US$94.6m), Lot 11 (51 more aircraft than Lot 10), pricing expected towards end of this year, price is expected to be lower again.

The big one to watch will be Lots 12-14, approx 450 aircraft, this is where they are looking at the 'block buy' and negotiating pricing for the three Lots together and expecting the price on an F-35A to come down to between US$80m-$84m by 2020.

And by the time the Lot 14 aircraft are delivered (end of 2022), there will have been 953 F-35A, B and C's delivered.

Couple of interesting links:

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defence-notes/future-f-35-production-numbers-released/

And this one:

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=f1194749331353023e45d2a0bc902d5f

On the FBO website you can download a PDF which shows the aircraft numbers for Lots 12-14 and also shows who is purchasing aircraft from each lot (some of the info is redacted, blacked out), but it’s easy to work out who those countries are, mostly the FMS customers.


An aircraft program in trouble? Cost out of control?

I think not!!
 
D

DaveS124

Active Member
Second phase of F-35B ski-jump launch tests at Pax River are go: BAE TP Pete Wilson shown in the video taking an external load up and away.

Watch it here - https://youtu.be/QCXcv6AG1B4

Just to be pedantic, this is for embarked UK and Italian STOVL ops, with first underway trials scheduled for the second half of next year in the Queen Elizabeth in US waters.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Those "people", for the most part, have been very quiet lately. They haven't seen the light but rather have run out of BS.:smilie
 
S

SteveR

Active Member
ADMk2 said:
Remember guys, people said this is the jet that 'can't run, can't turn and can't climb...'

https://youtu.be/_M4Q37IwgJU

:D
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Talking about airbase Canadian takeoff noise - not quite related to the F-35 - I was walking along at Comox base on Vancouver Island in 1980 when two loud explosions shook me. I looked around to see two CF-101s taking off. The CF-101 had a binary after-burner OFF then full ON. The full ON bit was a mini explosion as fuel ignited and produced a shock wave startling anyone like me who to that stage was only used a to Mirage 111 or F-111 graduated afterburner throttle.
 
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StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
well, yes, but it then levels off about eight hundred feet later - the F35 just keeps powering off out of shot - yes, I know it's not absolute proof the F35 can climb, can turn, etc but it's a hefty old climb straight out of shot that looks pretty good to me.

If you're genuinely curious as to the background to the rest of the discussion, have a trawl through the threads here - it's illustrative that a lot of negative press against the F35 has been whipped up by people with no direct experience with the aircraft or the program as a whole.
 
A

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
supercomrade said:
oh ya that proves everyone wrong. a combat jet doing a vertical takeoff

oh look here's a 787 doing the same thing...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxmFfq3w8pM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4mAEgQVzUE
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The problem for your apparent argument is that it isn't 'everyone' who believes the F-35 has these alleged short-comings...

Only those who refuse to believe that which L-M and the JSF Program have consistently said and that is that the F-35 IS a fighter aircraft and has more than acceptable aerodynamic performance.

Vids like these and others prove beyond any doubt, that argument is simply untrue.

For instance, power slide time...

https://youtu.be/IaHlWow6Yc4
 
S

supercomrade

Member
StobieWan said:
well, yes, but it then levels off about eight hundred feet later - the F35 just keeps powering off out of shot - yes, I know it's not absolute proof the F35 can climb, can turn, etc but it's a hefty old climb straight out of shot that looks pretty good to me.

If you're genuinely curious as to the background to the rest of the discussion, have a trawl through the threads here - it's illustrative that a lot of negative press against the F35 has been whipped up by people with no direct experience with the aircraft or the program as a whole.
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Mmmmm actually it's about roughly 700 feet where it levels off, and notice how the 787 goes into an instant climb, where your video that you posted, has the F-35 accelerating and gaining speed at a leveled altitude for good time before performing the vertical climb. Again, the 787 does not build any speed, it just goes from ground to vertical takeoff instantly.



And I know the F-35 has come a long way and fixed a lot of issues, trust me I have 100% understanding that at this point the JSF program is too big to fail, and any issues it encounters will be fixed from an unlimited supply of funds.

Only reason I even said anything or posted the 787, was I thought it was silly as hell of someone posting a vid of a combat jet doing an extremely basic thing that every single combat jet can do since the 1950's, as a "lol where the haters at now" kinda claim.
 
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