F-35 Program - General Discussion

[swerve]

Used to be called Trivandrum in English. When I flew out of there the English signs all said Trivandrum. I think Thiruvananthapuram is more like the Malayalam original.

Everything new since then. I remember the airport opening for my flight. I'd arrived at what I thought was a reasonable time before departure & there was no sign of life. IIRC there was a stall outside selling tea, so I waited. It gradually woke up, & they let the people waiting outside in.

Then an Air Lanka plane arrived from Colombo, & after a while we boarded it & flew to Colombo. There was no sign of any other flights. December 1984.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

From which i understand, Spain has rejected the F-35, and will search for an European alternative.
Here the original article:
El Gobierno aparca la compra de cazas F-35 estadounidenses y busca alternativas europeas

Here an article in English.
Spain rejects Lockheed Martin F-35 in favour of Eurofighter and FCAS programme options.

 

[John Fedup]

From which i understand, Spain has rejected the F-35, and will search for an European alternative.
Here the original article:
El Gobierno aparca la compra de cazas F-35 estadounidenses y busca alternativas europeas

Here an article in English.
Spain rejects Lockheed Martin F-35 in favour of Eurofighter and FCAS programme options.

If Spain wants to limit defence spending to 2% then perhaps the Gripen is a better option than Eurofighters. As for FCAS......?

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Spain already has 45 EF-2000s on order (HALCON I & II) so this "instead the Eurofighter is an option" seems just BS coming from the non specialized medias.
FCAS is a long term program that will eventually replace the Eurofighter (not really actually, the FCAS is in such an early stage that it is not clear yet which role it will have) and again I don't understand what kind of option it is since it's got nothing to do with the Eurofighter or the F-35.

The american plane was (and probably still is) the best choice for the Armada to replace their fleet of Harrier IIs, but the spanish government was always reluctant (also being an Airbus shareholder) and the current geopolitical situation makes it quite an easy choice to say "we will not buy f-35" to gain some popularity.
Reality is that Spain never had the money nor the willingness to buy F-35 and that's just a good excuse.

 

[John Fedup]

Spain already has 45 EF-2000s on order (HALCON I & II) so this "instead the Eurofighter is an option" seems just BS coming from the non specialized medias.
FCAS is a long term program that will eventually replace the Eurofighter (not really actually, the FCAS is in such an early stage that it is not clear yet which role it will have) and again I don't understand what kind of option it is since it's got nothing to do with the Eurofighter or the F-35.

The american plane was (and probably still is) the best choice for the Armada to replace their fleet of Harrier IIs, but the spanish government was always reluctant (also being an Airbus shareholder) and the current geopolitical situation makes it quite an easy choice to say "we will not buy f-35" to gain some popularity.
Reality is that Spain never had the money nor the willingness to buy F-35 and that's just a good excuse.

Interesting, if Spain already has 45 EF-2000s on order, how many more are needed until FCAS or whatever arrives? Was there ever an intention to replace the Harriers with F-35Bs for naval use?

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Interesting, if Spain already has 45 EF-2000s on order, how many more are needed until FCAS or whatever arrives? Was there ever an intention to replace the Harriers with F-35Bs for naval use?

Spain originally ordered 73 EFs, then ordered two additional tranches (20+25) in 2022 and 2024.
Some of them are meant to replace F-18s (Spain has about 60 of them, not quite sure how many in active service), but a full EF-2000 fleet would likely require another order of similar size (about 20 planes) to also make up for the earlier jets that at the end of decade will be close to 30 years old.

FCAS is facing serious troubles right now because of Dassault, which has always been a very difficult partner to work with and is basically asking Airbus to put the money and let them do the job.
This is of course unacceptable to Airbus, a considerably larger company than Dassault, and currently the partners are trying to figure out a way to make things work.

The other japanese-european fighter (the GCAP) seems to be going just fine (or at least much better than the FCAS), because the partners and the companies involved are used to work in large programs while Dassault always work alone.
The GCAP however is not really an option for Spain since the country hosts some of the largest Airbus facilities and plants.

The spanish navy wanted to replace their Harrier fleet with the F-35 and there were serious talks about it, also to better integrate with the italian (that is facing the exact same Harrier to F-35b transition) however the spanish government is really reluctant and frankly I dont see any spanish politician buying from Lockheed.

Not buying the F-35 could also mean the end of the spanish naval aviation, which is something that the spanish government at least considered (a naval aviation is extremely expensive).

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Spain originally ordered 73 EFs, then ordered two additional tranches (20+25) in 2022 and 2024.
Some of them are meant to replace F-18s (Spain has about 60 of them, not quite sure how many in active service), but a full EF-2000 fleet would likely require another order of similar size (about 20 planes) to also make up for the earlier jets that at the end of decade will be close to 30 years old.

FCAS is facing serious troubles right now because of Dassault, which has always been a very difficult partner to work with and is basically asking Airbus to put the money and let them do the job.
This is of course unacceptable to Airbus, a considerably larger company than Dassault, and currently the partners are trying to figure out a way to make things work.

The other japanese-european fighter (the GCAP) seems to be going just fine (or at least much better than the FCAS), because the partners and the companies involved are used to work in large programs while Dassault always work alone.
The GCAP however is not really an option for Spain since the country hosts some of the largest Airbus facilities and plants.

The spanish navy wanted to replace their Harrier fleet with the F-35 and there were serious talks about it, also to better integrate with the italian (that is facing the exact same Harrier to F-35b transition) however the spanish government is really reluctant and frankly I dont see any spanish politician buying from Lockheed.

Not buying the F-35 could also mean the end of the spanish naval aviation, which is something that the spanish government at least considered (a naval aviation is extremely expensive).

The only other option is to order a squadron of the version of the FCAS which is suitable for aircraft carriers, and then also order one PANG from France. But looking to the costs, this is highly unlikely.

More likely is the transition from AV-8Bs to UCAVs.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

FCAS and F-35 are by no means alternative to each other, one is the future the other is the present.

So when the media say that "other options instead of the F-35 are Eurofighter and FCAS" they literally talking about the only 2 planes that have nothing to do with the F-35...

I agree UCAVs are probably the most likely option.
I don't see Spain building another carrier, to be honest.

 

[Antipode]

Well, as a Spaniard, I believe the real issues are not money or politics, it is bang for buck. Money wise, Spain has been at the bottom of NATO investment for decades with around 1.28% per year, if memory serves. An increase to 2.1-2-2% will practically double the budget.

The same rationale that discouraged their acquisition for the RAN applies to the Armada, aggravated by our single platform situation VS the two of the RAN. The JC1 is about to undergo maintance and a change of pods, which underlines the point availability wise. If we would have at least two platforms, it could have been a done deal years ago.

Now, is this the end for the Armada's fixed wing? Apparently, not quite so. Besides what UAVs will operate from the JC1, there are announced plans for two new high capacity "LHX", and the very real possibility of a CATOBAR to come by 2040's for the FCAS. The greatest challenge will be crewing.

If (bear with me) those LHX are to be bigger than JC1 and have arresting cables to operate heavy drones and a potential naval Hürjet, the Armada may be actually heading to a great boost.