F-35 Program - General Discussion

[John Newman]

A RAAF F111 did attempt to join the submarine service whilst on exercise here about 35 years ago. That was in the Hauraki Gulf and it got the submerging part down pat. It was the rest of the requirements that it failed on.

Mate, yes the going down below the ocean surface is the easy bit.

That would have been A8-141, lost in October '78, fortunately both crew survived, but unfortunately I read that a NZ Navy diver died whilst diving on the wreckage.

But of course that wasn't the only F-111C lost in NZ, the other one was A8-137, which was lost during take-off at Ohakea in August '79, again both crew survived.

And again 'water' had a lot to do with that loss too!


Somehow I don't think F-111C's would have made good Collins replacements!!

 

[ngatimozart]

Mate, yes the going down below the ocean surface is the easy bit.

That would have been A8-141, lost in October '78, fortunately both crew survived, but unfortunately I read that a NZ Navy diver died whilst diving on the wreckage.

But of course that wasn't the only F-111C lost in NZ, the other one was A8-137, which was lost during take-off at Ohakea in August '79, again both crew survived.

And again 'water' had a lot to do with that loss too!


Somehow I don't think F-111C's would have made good Collins replacements!!

Yep, my mate was a firey at Ohakea when 137 did its skating routine. He said that the crew were quite lucky because after they banged out (ejected) the escape capsule started to drift back towards the burning aircraft. Fortunately it landed short of the burning aircraft. Yes a RNZN diver was lost when 141 went for its swim. Not good but a hazard of the branch. The F111 was quite popular this side of the ditch.

 

[SpazSinbad]

Yep, my mate was a firey at Ohakea when 137 did its skating routine. He said that the crew were quite lucky because after they banged out (ejected) the escape capsule started to drift back towards the burning aircraft. Fortunately it landed short of the burning aircraft....

FltLt Mark Kelly later piloted an S-2 to an arrested landing aboard HMAS Melbourne. He is seen with the S-2 & LEUT Larry Mills in Navy News 08 August 1980: http://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/Navy_News-August-8-1980.pdf

F-111 A8-137 Crash photos: NZ F-111 crash Aug 79 photos ADF-serials.com | Wings Over New Zealand

 

[colay1]

Dragon029 over at F16.net has just released the latest installment in his series of F-35 videos. This one exolains the rules of the radar game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwh-1jRGuDc

 

[ASSAIL]

The Turkish order for Lightning could be problematic if Turkey continues to lurch towards Russia and continued dissent grows internally.
How far has the process gone and are there any triggers which would cause the State Dept to halt the sale or am I being too pessimistic about Turkey's future?

 

[gf0012-aust]

The Turkish order for Lightning could be problematic if Turkey continues to lurch towards Russia and continued dissent grows internally.
How far has the process gone and are there any triggers which would cause the State Dept to halt the sale or am I being too pessimistic about Turkey's future?

my concerns as well, and IMO Turkey is a lost cause while Erdogan is there

 

[oldsig127]

my concerns as well, and IMO Turkey is a lost cause while Erdogan is there

Atatürk must be spinning in his grave. As a retired Australian soldier I have great respect for him, as a student of history his founding of the Turkish Republic in the ashes of the old Ottoman Empire as a secular state with universal adult suffrage is more important than anything he did as Mustapha Kemel Bey at Galipolli.

That Reccip Tayip Erdogan can so distort Turkish democracy is a tragedy. We just have to hope that the Turkish people are still enough wedded to their secular freedoms to resist a slide into a one party religious state pretending democracy. If they can, they're well entitled to have the best western technology can provide. Otherwise, not so much

oldsig

 

[ngatimozart]

Atatürk must be spinning in his grave. As a retired Australian soldier I have great respect for him, as a student of history his founding of the Turkish Republic in the ashes of the old Ottoman Empire as a secular state with universal adult suffrage is more important than anything he did as Mustapha Kemel Bey at Galipolli.

That Reccip Tayip Erdogan can so distort Turkish democracy is a tragedy. We just have to hope that the Turkish people are still enough wedded to their secular freedoms to resist a slide into a one party religious state pretending democracy. If they can, they're well entitled to have the best western technology can provide. Otherwise, not so much

oldsig

Well said Sir.

 

[Ranger25]

Well said Sir.

Agreed, second that. Let's hope the Turks can get on and figure it out.

Soon

 

[Stampede]

Atatürk must be spinning in his grave. As a retired Australian soldier I have great respect for him, as a student of history his founding of the Turkish Republic in the ashes of the old Ottoman Empire as a secular state with universal adult suffrage is more important than anything he did as Mustapha Kemel Bey at Galipolli.

That Reccip Tayip Erdogan can so distort Turkish democracy is a tragedy. We just have to hope that the Turkish people are still enough wedded to their secular freedoms to resist a slide into a one party religious state pretending democracy. If they can, they're well entitled to have the best western technology can provide. Otherwise, not so much

oldsig

An interesting country in a turbulent part of the world.
Not sure how Turkey's neighbours will view a fix winged capable fleet in the Eastern Mediterranean. Turkeys aviation wish list may prove an interesting challenge for the new Trumponian order!.
Will be very interesting to see how the USA balances the competing demands of the Middle East and the decision they make re defence supply.
.
Regards S

 

[oldsig127]

An interesting country in a turbulent part of the world.
Not sure how Turkey's neighbours will view a fix winged capable fleet in the Eastern Mediterranean. Turkeys aviation wish list may prove an interesting challenge for the new Trumponian order!.

.
Regards S

They already have ~300 F-16s from blocks 30 and 40 which being upgraded to block 50, supported by their version of Wedgetail. I should have called this a fixed wing capable fleet in the Eastern Mediterranean already. F-35 is a step up, but not more so than any other nation making the change from 4th to 5th gen.

oldsig

 

[Toblerone]

Yeah, supply 5th gen aircraft to Erdogan's Turkey and mess up the balance of power in the region. What could go wrong?

Except that he is a loose cannon that cannot be controlled, the country is spiraling into chaos because of the kurdish insurgency, terrorism, the coup and the full-on crackdown that followed. Oh, there are also turkish troops in Iraq that they refuse to withdraw despite the calls of the iraqi government, they have invaded Syria to prevent the kurds from uniting their territories, they supply several terrorist groups that are Al Qaeda affiliates in Syria, Erdogan is moving away from secularism and towards islamism, he makes outrageous territorial and historic claims on foreign lands of Syria, Greece etc, fuelling nationalism and radical islamism. The internal Aleppo-related propaganda against Russia and Assad resulted in that turkish police officer (!) assassinating the russian ambassador.

Let's be frank here, if USA leadership had stability or the West's interests as their first priority they would not boost the turkish military with 5th gen aircraft. Their equipment is *more* than enough for defensive purposes.

 

[John Fedup]

Toblerone, agree 100%. Just imagine having your F135 engines being serviced by this designated service provider.nfloorl:

 

[ASSAIL]

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/turkey-to-place-new-f-35-order

Turkeys problems are many as all have mentioned but my original post was directed towards her actual,programme. Turkey is a level 3 partner, same as Australia, and has already ordered 2 + 4 aircraft which should be delivered this year. It is envisaged that she will order around 120 planes so this is not inconsequential. Turkey has already complained that the US has not given access to the lines of code for the aircrafts function (just quoting here, don't really understand the process, just the importance).

I simply wonder if there is any trigger or process which the US enforces to cancel the order and reimburse Turkey for funds paid to R&D for the project and if this happens surely the consequences for a major plank in US foreign policy in the region will be dire.

It really is a diabolical conundrum.

 

[gf0012-aust]

worth the time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTgDTC8_PM0

Lt. Col. David “Chip” Berke, USMC, former F-22 and F-35B pilot now the Force Management Branch Chief on the Joint Staff J-8, and Lt. Col. Scott “CAP” Gunn, USAF, the commander of the 33rd Operational Support Squadron at Eglin AFB, Fla., discuss the capabilities of the F-35 Lightning II fighter with Defense & Aerospace Report



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zPNArRRAdA

Maj Andrew “Punk” Stolee, Air Force Strategic Policy Fellow at the Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies who was the chief F-22 Instructor Pilot at the 433rd Weapons Squadron at the US Air Force Weapons School at Nellis AFB, Nevada, discusses the differences between operating fourth- and fifth-generation


reinforces what I've said about JSF being in real terms the first C5-ISR flying asset

 

[Stampede]

They already have ~300 F-16s from blocks 30 and 40 which being upgraded to block 50, supported by their version of Wedgetail. I should have called this a fixed wing capable fleet in the Eastern Mediterranean already. F-35 is a step up, but not more so than any other nation making the change from 4th to 5th gen.

oldsig

Thanks for the reply

Yes Turkey is already in possession of a modern capable air force and will foster that position into the future with up to 120 f35's. The point of difference is potentially their ability to deploy fast air to sea. What ever attributes such limited numbers of aircraft bring to the fight,an aircraft carrying ship is a strong political statement.
We can rightfully question the effectiveness of Russia's sole carrier operating in the Med off Syria. We can make comedy of its excessive discharge of smoke and the loss of two aircraft with the air group now confined to land.........Is there always an ocean going tug on hand .......Ha Ha Ha! But the thing is the ship made headline news on the BBC as it passed through the English Channel and has being followed with interest ever since. Move across the Eurasian land mass and China's only aircraft carrier is now on deployment conducting exercises the furthermost from the Chinese mainland in it's history. We watch and observe.
Give Turkey a modern 5 Gen capable V/Stol aircraft in the F35B and marry that to a new modern LHD / aircraft carrier capable ship you now have a new dynamic in this part of the world. In the hands of experienced and capable crew that's a lot more potential than a current fleet of land based f16's

Not taking any sides but change brings uncertainty.
What next ? F35 for Greece, LHD and F35b for Israel, F35b for Libya's Mistrals.


A very big challenge for the US administration.

Regards S

 

[gf0012-aust]

CREF earlier discussions around 4th gen retrofits

F-35 pilot: It's 'preposterous' to think an upgraded F-18 could do the F-35's job | Business Insider India

 

[John Fedup]

I simply wonder if there is any trigger or process which the US enforces to cancel the order and reimburse Turkey for funds paid to R&D for the project and if this happens surely the consequences for a major plank in US foreign policy in the region will be dire.

It really is a diabolical conundrum.

I simply don't understand how any further consideration can be given to allowing Turkey to remain in this program or to purchase the jets or to have a engine repair centre. They are not reliable and should no longer be allowed to remain in NATO IMO. Yes, this will add some cost to the program but the cost will be less than another rogue failed state with state-of-the-art fighters. How much technology info will be made available to Russia or China (i.e. stuff that hasn't already been stolen)?

 

[StingrayOZ]

Why does Turkey have such an extensive F-35 build workshare compared to Australia if they are the same level.
https://www.f35.com/global/participation/turkey-industrial-participation

Seems like they can basically build the whole plane (or at least 40%), with facilities to build engines, fuselages, wiring etc.

https://www.f35.com/global/participation/australia-ip
Australia wins F-35 maintenance contract
Seems very limited for Australia in comparison.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Why does Turkey have such an extensive F-35 build workshare compared to Australia if they are the same level.
https://www.f35.com/global/participation/turkey-industrial-participation

Seems like they can basically build the whole plane (or at least 40%), with facilities to build engines, fuselages, wiring etc.

https://www.f35.com/global/participation/australia-ip
Australia wins F-35 maintenance contract
Seems very limited for Australia in comparison.

blame australian industry for that.

I attended a number of industry briefs in the early days discussing the opportunity for workshare etc... these were usually conducted by AIDN

the attitude amongst the smaller SME's was in a word "provincial". they had expectations which were unfort not bought back to reality by the junior defence minister who attended.

countries like canada (which had a NAFTA advantage) hit the ground running and got even greater workshare despite no comparable committments - and which has now migrated to some latent hostility by the rest of the buyers now that they are even now talking about deselection

AusInd has no one but themselves to blame for the lack of work in comparison to others