F-35 Program - General Discussion

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Nice to get further confirmation of the jet's ability to dogfight. But what I find really impressive is the revelation of a single jet's effectiveness in the DEAD role. Just imagine what havoc a flight of networked F-35s wil inflict.

The details of the F-35 threat-detection system or RWR are classified, but interviews of pilots who have flown both the F-16CJ and the F-35 state that a single F-35 has the ability to locate, identify, and triangulate emitter locations faster and with greater precision than can a flight of three F-16CJs that surround the emitter.[10] The associated systems work against air-to-air threats just as well and are all internal to the F-35, forgoing the need for external pods or stores that would slow down the jet or give it a larger radar cross section (RCS).[11] This system alone helps to make all three versions of the F-35 standouts in the air-to-ground mission sets of the multirole fighter community.

Operational Assessment of the F-35A | RealClearDefense
Barracuda strikes me as possibly the most fascinating part of the aircraft. Its capabilities are obviously shrouded in secrecy but one wonders what they truly are... Interesting stuff.
 
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colay1

Member
Barracuda strikes me as possibly the most fascinating part of the aircraft. Its capabilities are obviously shrouded in secrecy but one wonders what they truly are... Interesting stuff.
it reminds me of back in the early F-22 days when an inside source stated that the most amazing (and hush-hush) piece of kit it had was the AN/ALR-94 on which Barracuda is based. The ability to sponge up electronic emissions and turn this into useful information to be shared with other assets is invaluable. It's also been reported the F-35 will be able to engage in collaborative EW, more tantalizing info to tease us with.
 
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Boagrius

Well-Known Member
it reminds me of back in the early F-22 days when an inside source stated that the most amazing (and hush-hush) piece of it it had was the AN/ALR-94 on which Barracuda is based. The ability to sponge up electronic emissions and turn this into useful information to be shared with other assets is invaluable. It's also been reported the F-35 will be able to engage in collaborative EW, more tantalizing info to tease us with.
As I've said before in this very thread, I am extremely interested in how it achieves its jamming function. Conventional wisdom would say that APG81 is the emitter here, but I would have thought it too constrained by the X-Band in which it sits to perform the kind of diverse standoff and stand in jamming that BAE so often cite as being part of Barracuda's functionality...
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
it reminds me of back in the early F-22 days when an inside source stated that the most amazing (and hush-hush) piece of it it had was the AN/ALR-94 on which Barracuda is based. The ability to sponge up electronic emissions and turn this into useful information to be shared with other assets is invaluable. It's also been reported the F-35 will be able to engage in collaborative EW, more tantalizing info to tease us with.
It was announced recently F-35 has an on-board SPJ capability too...
 

r3mu511

New Member
As I've said before in this very thread, I am extremely interested in how it achieves its jamming function. Conventional wisdom would say that APG81 is the emitter here, but I would have thought it too constrained by the X-Band in which it sits to perform the kind of diverse standoff and stand in jamming that BAE so often cite as being part of Barracuda's functionality...
It was announced recently F-35 has an on-board SPJ capability too...
Since the asq-239 also controls the ale-70 and the ale-70 is capable of rf transmission (see: http://www.afcea.org/content/?q=bae-provide-joint-strike-fighter-transmitter-countermeasures) then perhaps it is through the ale-70's emitters that the asq-239 performs it's jam/spj functions which do not require the apg-81 (see also: http://armadainternational.com/assets/images/pdf/Aircraft_Self-Protection.pdf, quote: "According to collected data on the same system, the ALE-70 is reported to be an RF towed decoy. In the latter case, the FOTD is to be driven by a technique generator on board the F-35, which could imply the use of an RF jammer").

I've been searching for info on the the wing/tail apertures of the asq-239 to see if they have any transmitters in them, but haven't been able to find anything so I'm wondering if perhaps it's the ale-70s which serve as rf transmitters. For self protection purposes (spj) I can imagine a towed decoy would be expended to provide the jamming countermeasures, but for general jamming purposes which don't use the apg-81 would it also expend an ale-70 for this as well?
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Since the asq-239 also controls the ale-70 and the ale-70 is capable of rf transmission (see: http://www.afcea.org/content/?q=bae-provide-joint-strike-fighter-transmitter-countermeasures) then perhaps it is through the ale-70's emitters that the asq-239 performs it's jam/spj functions which do not require the apg-81 (see also: http://armadainternational.com/assets/images/pdf/Aircraft_Self-Protection.pdf, quote: "According to collected data on the same system, the ALE-70 is reported to be an RF towed decoy. In the latter case, the FOTD is to be driven by a technique generator on board the F-35, which could imply the use of an RF jammer").

I've been searching for info on the the wing/tail apertures of the asq-239 to see if they have any transmitters in them, but haven't been able to find anything so I'm wondering if perhaps it's the ale-70s which serve as rf transmitters. For self protection purposes (spj) I can imagine a towed decoy would be expended to provide the jamming countermeasures, but for general jamming purposes which don't use the apg-81 would it also expend an ale-70 for this as well?
Not sure as I thought ALE70 was just a dispenser, with your first link referring to dispensable emitters in lieu of regular chaff bundles? Again, simultaneously oblivious to and intrigued by how it works.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
But but but... it's got a round exhaust nozzle! IRST is its weakness! High engine temp! :roll2

FLIR Systems published today a short video depicting the F-35 Lightning II 5th Generation fighter during its flight display at the recent Farnborough Airshow (2016). The clip shows the JSF after a simulated takeoff, in forward flight, approach to vertical landing and hover.

While the video highlights the extremely hot air exhaust during vertical hovering, it also shows the striking low thermal contrast of the skin, canopy and engine bay, against the sky, which testify to the Lightning II’s effective thermal masking. While the aircraft and exhaust are clearly visible against the sky background in the flypast, it is clear that such image is taken with maximum gain, which isn’t likely to be useful for normal operation. In other shots that are tuned to show the exhaust heat, the aircraft itself almost blends with background, as it would be, when seen in a front view that masks most of the jet exhaust. Low contrast objects would be less detectable by thermal imagers, at long range. For aircraft it also improves protection from heat seeking missiles.

Critics of the F-35 claim that while its stealth design denies its detection by radars, infrared imagers can easily spot the aircraft at long range, by its heat signature. Unlike Russian, Chinese and European aircraft manufacturers that have employed infra-red search and track (IRST) technologies, US services are relying almost exclusively on radar for aerial situational awareness. While the F-35, like every physical object, has a thermal signature, this thermal scan shows its designers made significant effort to ‘flatten’ its thermal image, making the aircraft less detectable and trackable at long distance.

The video clip shown below compares the recent images taken with FLIR Systems’ new Star SAFIRE 380-HDc high definition FLIR, with a similar video taken by another FLIR sensor in 2010, showing the F-22 Raptor. At the recent Farnborough show the F-35 Lightning II performed a flyby and hover, but did not perform high performance maneuvering like the Raptor did back in 2010. Previous FLIR videos of 4 Generation fighters such as the F-16, Typhoon, and Su-27 showed skin area with much higher thermal contrast

The most intriguing view is the forward flight, showing the aircraft from a forward 3/4 view, in very high contrast to the sky but low contrast between the hot air and cold aircraft – note that the camera shows minimal difference between the aircraft and hot air plume of the engine exhaust. In the flight phases where the engine runs in high power, the contrast between the air exhaust and aircraft, especially around the engine, is striking.

At that short distance, the FLIR SAFIRE 380-HDc camera details the hot and cold parts on the aircraft, for example, the windows of the Distributed Aperture Systems (DAS), where high-resolution IR cameras are located.
F-35 Thermal Scan Highlights New Stealth Features | Defense Update:
 
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r3mu511

New Member
Not sure as I thought ALE70 was just a dispenser, with your first link referring to dispensable emitters in lieu of regular chaff bundles? Again, simultaneously oblivious to and intrigued by how it works.
fwiw, the first link indicates that it has rf transmitters, while the second link describes it as an rf towed decoy, so it would appear to be more than just a chaff dispenser...
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
fwiw, the first link indicates that it has rf transmitters, while the second link describes it as an rf towed decoy, so it would appear to be more than just a chaff dispenser...
Interesting. You might be on to something in that case!
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
ex 4th Gen Pilots talk about the
The F-35 has grabbed headlines in terms of performance capabilities in recent years. But what do the pilots think? Defense News Associate Editor Aaron Mehta spoke to John Venable, a defense expert with the Heritage Foundation, who surveyed pilots to find out.
https://youtu.be/Yeq2hvSmtwE
 

gazzzwp

Member
ex 4th Gen Pilots talk about the


https://youtu.be/Yeq2hvSmtwE
Thanks for the youtube link.

It was my impression from reading the reports in the popular media recently that the situation was turning around and the plane was now being warmly received by pilots in the USAF and USN but then over the last day or two I have been reading things like this:

America's F-35 Stealth Fighter May Never Be Ready for Combat | The National Interest Blog

The same article is available from other sources. The article mentions concerns from the Pentagon that the plane is still not fit to face capable adversaries, is less capable that the craft we already have, and has major performance deficiencies. The ability to carry and deliver a high munitions load may be years away. The canon (F-35A) only has a mere 181 rounds a fraction of that carried by an F-16 and opening the canon hatch causes such drag that the plane veers marginally which makes targeting difficult.

I could go on. For once it would be great to know the truth. Accepted that the aircraft is late and over budget, to a large degree acceptable for such an advanced project, however according to some the aircraft is simply doomed to failure.

:confused:
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
It was my impression from reading the reports in the popular media recently that the situation was turning around and the plane was now being warmly received by pilots in the USAF and USN but then over the last day or two I have been reading things like this:

America's F-35 Stealth Fighter May Never Be Ready for Combat | The National Interest Blog
The last line in the above link is critical;

This first appeared on The Center for Defense Information at POGO website

POGO is the bitch and moan site of choice for the likes of Sprey and Wheeler, blowhard anti-JSF ravers. Thus I have little faith in the article.
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
Thanks for the youtube link.

It was my impression from reading the reports in the popular media recently that the situation was turning around and the plane was now being warmly received by pilots in the USAF and USN but then over the last day or two I have been reading things like this:
The F-35 has always been received warmly with the people who use it (ie pilots, maintainers, etc).

Gilmore's main problem with it is concurrency which bypasses DOT&E (his department) during the production decision. He made the decision to wait till Block 3F to do any OT&E work on it and according to him, it's not ready for combat till "he" says so. So using that same logic, his OT&E squadron may not be ready before he wants it too (go blame congress, not the F-35 for funding issues) therefor the F-35 is "not ready for combat"

Keep in mind that all he has done to date is read reports that the JPO creates as part of the JPO's dev and testing process, then take those reports and make his own showing everything he thinks is wrong with the F-35s, risks involved, and what the JPO should do (and are already doing in most cases) to address the issue.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Oh dear, the aircraft delivered in 2015/16 are not of the same configuration as aircraft expected to be delivered post 2023. These people do realise that the reason there are blocks, tranches, models in every combat aircraft program is to incorporate new capabilities when and as they become available?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Oh dear, the aircraft delivered in 2015/16 are not of the same configuration as aircraft expected to be delivered post 2023. These people do realise that the reason there are blocks, tranches, models in every combat aircraft program is to incorporate new capabilities when and as they become available?
How many violins would they like? :rolleyes: :wah
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Out of curiosity with the block upgrades with the software are they doing based off of a planned fixed objective developed by the R&D people or are they doing it how we went with the E-7A and listening to what the end user says is most important and fixing those issues before anything else.

Regards, vonnoobie.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thanks for the youtube link.

It was my impression from reading the reports in the popular media recently that the situation was turning around and the plane was now being warmly received by pilots in the USAF and USN but then over the last day or two I have been reading things like this:

America's F-35 Stealth Fighter May Never Be Ready for Combat | The National Interest Blog

The same article is available from other sources. The article mentions concerns from the Pentagon that the plane is still not fit to face capable adversaries, is less capable that the craft we already have, and has major performance deficiencies. The ability to carry and deliver a high munitions load may be years away. The canon (F-35A) only has a mere 181 rounds a fraction of that carried by an F-16 and opening the canon hatch causes such drag that the plane veers marginally which makes targeting difficult.

I could go on. For once it would be great to know the truth. Accepted that the aircraft is late and over budget, to a large degree acceptable for such an advanced project, however according to some the aircraft is simply doomed to failure.

:confused:
POGO produced a paper demonstrating conclusively that the M60A1 MBT was in every way superior to the M1 a while back. They just don't like new stuff.

And hey, this is the think tank that is the darling of Sprey, and Sprey is the guy who claimed for decades that the F15 is a lemon of an aircraft as it's too big, too heavy, and has a "lot of junk" hanging off of it. Current combat exchange ratio, 104:0.

I also seem to recall a few comments on the tail hook thing to the effect that it'd likely never be fixed.

I'm leaning towards the idea that they're not a reliable source of information about the F35.
 

colay1

Member
Out of curiosity with the block upgrades with the software are they doing based off of a planned fixed objective developed by the R&D people or are they doing it how we went with the E-7A and listening to what the end user says is most important and fixing those issues before anything else.

Regards, vonnoobie.
They are free to re-prioritize and adjust schedules for various features within a block. IIRC Block 4 is going to be released in 4 increments over an 8-year period.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Apparently there is a bun fight developing over the IP rights for designs, materials, systems and programs involved in the F35 program. The fight is between the primes and subcontractors on one side and the USG on the other. When the USG wrote the original F35 RFT and subsequent contract, it neglected to stipulate that as in previous acquisition contracts that the USG would retain overall IP ownership. By retaining the overall IP rights, the USG allows the Dept of Defense to maintain and modify a platform without expensive negotiations and contracts with primes and subcontractors etc.

Intellectual Property Fights Par for the Course in F-35 Program

The F-35: Who Should Own the Rights to the Software Inside?
 
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