F-35 Program - General Discussion

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
seems to me that the plane is definitely failing and should be cancelled immediately /sarcasm off

The F-35 has hit another snag — this time because it is just too good

The F-35 has hit yet another snag. During a recent exercise at Mountain Home Air Force Base in Idaho, US Air Force F-35A pilots set out to practice evading surface-to-air missiles, but they could not, because the SAM radars on the ground could not even find the ultra-stealthy planes.

"If they never saw us, they couldn't target us," said Lt. Col. George Watkins, commander of the 34th Fighter Squadron at Hill Air Force Base, Utah, told the Air Force Times.

To participate in the exercise as planned, the F-35As had to turn on their transponders, essentially announcing their presence so the SAM sites could see and engage them.

"We basically told them where we were at and said, 'Hey, try to shoot at us,'" said Watkins.

Had Watkins and crew not turned on their transponders, "most likely we would not have suffered a single loss from any SAM threats while we were training at Mountain Home."

Air Force planners have been counting on the F-35's ability to enter heavily contested airspace unseen by enemy radar and missiles, and the result of this exercise seems to vindicate that strategy, to say the least.

"When we go to train, it's really an unfair fight for the guys who are simulating the adversaries," Watkins continued. "We've been amazed by what we can do when we go up against fourth-gen adversaries in our training environment, in the air and on the ground."

The idea that F-35s can enter the most heavily defended air spaces on earth, pass by undetected by SAM sites and radars, and soften up those targets as well as legacy fighters represents the entire reasoning behind the trillion-dollar thrust to get this weapons system in the air.

Watkins said that with just four F-35s, he can "be everywhere and nowhere at the same time because we can cover so much ground with our sensors, so much ground and so much airspace. And the F-15s or F-16s, or whoever is simulating an adversary or red air threat, they have no idea where we're at and they can't see us and they can't target us."

Watkins described a "pretty awesome feeling" seeing the grand plans of the F-35 come to fruition in a realistic training exercise, by rendering virtually all other platforms obsolete.

Utah's Hill Air Force Base, where Watkins commands the squadron of F-35s, now has 21 certified pilots, 222 maintainers, and 15 F-35s at the ready. Another F-35 is scheduled to be delivered at the end of August, and more pilots and maintainers are continually being trained to full readiness.

According to the Air Force Times, no further shortfalls in supply are expected, and top Air Force brass should declare the plane operationally ready within a few days. Link
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
^ What a total disaster! ;) I think the F35 drew the short straw in being the first large scale fighter aircraft program to have taken place during the age of the internet. One can only imagine what the bloggers would have been saying back when other developmental aircraft were routinely crashing and/or killing their test pilots...
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
and if you come across some naysayers\ who state that they were only blue threat systems - they're not, they're "red actuals" and "red sims" as well

eg the US has an S300 system that is used for testing etc....
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
and if you come across some naysayers who state that they were only blue threat systems - they're not, they red actuals and red sims as well

eg the US has an S300 system that is used for testing etc....
Absolutely - this seems to get lost in the ether a lot. You have someone like Air Marshall Geoff Brown testifying in front of a senate committee that he has flown the latest Flanker variant(s) (Su30MKI) and noted serious shortcomings relative to F/A18E/F and F35 and nobody makes a peep. The fact that the Russians have been so forthcoming in exporting some of their bleeding edge tech to (for example) Red Flag participants like India surely has to work against them here.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Absolutely - this seems to get lost in the ether a lot. You have someone like Air Marshall Geoff Brown testifying in front of a senate committee that he has flown the latest Flanker variant(s) (Su30MKI) and noted serious shortcomings relative to F/A18E/F and F35 and nobody makes a peep. The fact that the Russians have been so forthcoming in exporting some of their bleeding edge tech to (for example) Red Flag participants like India surely has to work against them here.
If you get any doubters re the S300 system is US hands I can even chuck up the co-ordinates

Its in the public domain :)
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
one example of, from a highly reliable colleague.

...............S-300 system at Nellis AFB: .................Google Maps, the C2 vehicle is at 37°18'50.6"N 116°47'28.8"W (37.314045, -116.791343). The launch vehicle is just to the SW, and further to the SW is a TIN SHIELD target acquisition radar, while to its NW is a mast-mounted FLAP LID target engagement radar lowered down to the ground."
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
JSF has also now reached IOC
This will be such shocking news to some here along with all the other positive news. The best part of this news is pain it will cause our pathetic PM and his minions posing as cabinet ministers. There may yet be hope for the RCAF.:dance
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
one example of, from a highly reliable colleague.

...............S-300 system at Nellis AFB: .................Google Maps, the C2 vehicle is at 37°18'50.6"N 116°47'28.8"W (37.314045, -116.791343). The launch vehicle is just to the SW, and further to the SW is a TIN SHIELD target acquisition radar, while to its NW is a mast-mounted FLAP LID target engagement radar lowered down to the ground."
Had a quick squiz - my eye probably isn't well trained enough to identify these things from top down view but it's certainly entertaining. IOC is good news - promising times ahead.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Operational Assessment of the F-35A | RealClearDefense

I guess the critics will have to go and see if they can tweak their copies of Microsoft Simulator to find some bad news....
The quote of sustained turn rates of 28 degrees per second is interesting in that it matches figures I've heard quoted for the F-22, admittedly in open source though in the context of the discussion (a USAF Colonel and Aggressor pilot comparing turn rates for the F-22, SU-30MKI and F-15C) it seemed to make sense. Again I'm not making assumptions here, just noting the similarity. If the F-35 can match the F-22 in a sustained turn that may disappoint some of the more bloody-minded gladiatorial dogfight fanatics. "Can't turn, can't burn", wasn't it?

In the era of HMS and HOBS I don't want to place undue importance on any one airframe performance figure, it's more that it's fun to acknowledge the continuing gross contradictions between the expectations of internet professionals and doomsayers, and the real world performance of the genuine article... ;)
 

the road runner

Active Member
Operational Assessment of the F-35A | RealClearDefense

I guess the critics will have to go and see if they can tweak their copies of Microsoft Simulator to find some bad news....
That is probably the best article i have ever read in regards to JSF and 4th gen fighters.

I wonder how the pilots will feel once the "G" restrictions are upped on JSF.
Also when JSF has the added advantage of fighting from a "systems approach"

One thing that really dose my head in on the internet is how most people think a 4th gen fighter ,loaded with missiles, EW and targeting pods,bombs can pull 9G and fly mach 2 plus ,while the JSF will fly mach 1.6 and carry a small bomb/missile load. The article busted that myth in a very good way .

Thanks for posting gf.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
The quote of sustained turn rates of 28 degrees per second is interesting in that it matches figures I've heard quoted for the F-22
I read it in reference to a "pedal turn"... is he talking about yaw rather than pitch rate here? Seems awfully fast for yaw rate.
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
I read it in reference to a "pedal turn"... is he talking about yaw rather than pitch rate here? Seems awfully fast for yaw rate.
Ah you're right, it's not as clear as I claimed - I appear to have gotten overexcited at the figure and didn't stop to read it clearly... doesn't even use the term sustained! Apologies all, I was over-keen to razz the haters :p
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Ah you're right, it's not as clear as I claimed - I appear to have gotten overexcited at the figure and didn't stop to read it clearly... doesn't even use the term sustained! Apologies all, I was over-keen to razz the haters :p
Understandable ;) I think the take home message stands though - the people who actually have the pertinent first hand experience and/or data on the jet seem to (rather unanimously) describe it as a quantum leap ahead over extant 4th gen platforms in all of the performance metrics that matter.

Will be interesting to see just how untenable the anti-JSF position becomes as the F35 continues to put its gestational period ever further behind it.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Will be interesting to see just how untenable the anti-JSF position becomes as the F35 continues to put its gestational period ever further behind it.
Indeed it will, especially here in Canada. Junior may well be feeling heat from some of his cabinet ministers over his anti-JSF stance. I posted on the RCAF thread about the F-35's Canadian debut in Abbotsford next week.:jump2
 

colay1

Member
Nice to get further confirmation of the jet's ability to dogfight. But what I find really impressive is the revelation of a single jet's effectiveness in the DEAD role. Just imagine what havoc a flight of networked F-35s wil inflict.

The details of the F-35 threat-detection system or RWR are classified, but interviews of pilots who have flown both the F-16CJ and the F-35 state that a single F-35 has the ability to locate, identify, and triangulate emitter locations faster and with greater precision than can a flight of three F-16CJs that surround the emitter.[10] The associated systems work against air-to-air threats just as well and are all internal to the F-35, forgoing the need for external pods or stores that would slow down the jet or give it a larger radar cross section (RCS).[11] This system alone helps to make all three versions of the F-35 standouts in the air-to-ground mission sets of the multirole fighter community.

http://www.realcleardefense.com/art...ational_assessment_of_the_f-35a_109673-5.html
 
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