Worse. F-111's being escorted by F/A-18A/B's with no refuellers since 2007 or so...So that's F-111s being escorted by F-18F/Gs who need IFR to get there and who themselves need escorts. No wonder they went with the F-35.
Lol you kidding me so you are saying that the JSF will cost 71 -73 mil as per?well I don't know where they think it has gone up over 4 times the price when the current projected SAR full rate production URF is $71-73m, as per http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/a...news-discussions-updates-6007-210/#post242426
If you want to learn about the f-35 and how it will function, on SDL the interviews with those in the program would be a very good start
it's better to use this google search for their site, you are welcome to add or delete keywords to it
f-35 sdl - Google Search
Personally i would agree to the statement that a JSF bird would cost around 120 million (Taking the average of the current estimates) but saying that it would cost: $71-73m is just laughable i mean ...nevermind no commentAVERAGE COST $135 MLN PER F-35
The new baseline forecasts the average cost of the F-35 fighter, including research and development (R&D) and inflation, at $135 million per plane, plus an additional $26 million for the F135 engine built by Pratt & Whitney, a unit of United Technologies Corp.
EDIT 135 mil + 26 mil = 161 million per plane (And then you have to add the 20% that the US government released some days ago)
In 2012 dollars, the average cost of each single-seat, single-engine plane, including R&D, would be $112.5 million, plus $22 million for the engine.
EDIT: 112.5 Million + 22 Million = 134.5 million (Plus the added 20% per plane)
This is the first year that the government has separated out the cost of the plane and the engine, and comparison figures were not immediately available. Lockheed Martin has said the average cost of the plane will be around $65 million to $70 million, based on 2010 dollars.
Lockheed Martin declined comment on the new estimate, saying it had not yet received the Pentagon's latest report.
Lockheed spokesman Joe LaMarca said the company still believed the new fighter jet would cost the same or less to operate and maintain than the seven legacy warplanes it will replace, while offering far greater capabilities.
Buddy do not take this the wrong way, but if you challenge a poster there on the forum, then np but if a person proves you wrong, then its at least nice to say that you where wrong.Beatmaster, you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink, as I said, the $71-73m is FRP URF and I'm not going into LRIP and FRP or URF and APUC pricing, or even that partners and FMS don't pay for SDD increases as you seem to believe, believe what you wish to, I'm finished
That would go against what Tom Burbage said for what Australia is paying on average for JSF.Lol you kidding me so you are saying that the JSF will cost 71 -73 mil as per?
That would be amazing, considering that a F-16 cost 100 mil.
he's not kiddingLol you kidding me so you are saying that the JSF will cost 71 -73 mil as per?
From the link you quoted:Buddy do not take this the wrong way, but if you challenge a poster there on the forum, then np but if a person proves you wrong, then its at least nice to say that you where wrong.
But sticking your head in the sand will not work.
The sources i provided are accurate and your report is not simple as.
End of discussion
Kind Regards Beatmaster
Thin Ice? Sarcasm? Well sorry about that.he's not kidding
the price has been quoted consistently by the RAAF head of the prev and present JSF Project Team to govt - and as recently as 2 months ago.
on another note, show some courtesy to others when responding as you're skating on thin ice with sarcasm injected into your tone
True, however question:From the link you quoted:
"Defense analyst Loren Thompson said three quarters of the cost increases on the F-35 program were linked to government changes in the scope of the program, and the way it was estimating costs.
For instance, he said, the Pentagon initially planned to station the plane at 33 bases, but later changed the number to 49. It initially calculated operating costs over 30 years, but then chose a longer timeframe of 50 years, he said.
"The program costs appear to be rising much faster than they actually are because the government keeps changing how it calculates things," Thompson said."
it'd help if you read the entire article - the numbers they're tossing around are costs projected in 2012 dollars. Stand that on it's head and shoot back in time and tell folks that the £15m jets they were buying in 1982 are actually averaging £90m and you'd have an idea where that sits.
The numbers being bounced around in there are accounting shuffles to try and estimate the F35 program costs to the US - they're not useful in telling anyone (that's you, me, other folk on the forum) what the F35 will cost foreign customers and partners in the next four or five years.
Canada and Australia have both got solid $70m level of numbers as an average price, taking the first LRIP numbers through to the final production jets right at the end of the line. That's an actual "if we got our credit card out right now and bought these, how much.." number.
Why are you quoting estimates constantly instead of contract prices?True, however question:
He says an average of 70m, US government says another number (Bigger), Other partners got their numbers......
Who is right?
Keep in mind a product from the line cost lets say a dollar, add the taxes and all kind of extra costs (Per nation different) and the same product will cost the end user 5 dollar instead of the projected 1 dollar.
Just trying something here ok?
So could it be that the 70 million is the actually " out of factory" cost and that the additional costs are extra's imposed by the government?
Because that would explain why here is written 70m average, but on the same piece the average is 135mil
In honestly do not know, i am serious trying to explain this as it seems that all of us do have a point.
Excellent post! I prefer using fly away costs per plane, but every nation will buy different packages for their aircraft fleet. Some will buy one simulator and others will buy more. The same applies for parts and tools packages as well. You don't get a true reflection of the cost of each aircraft by the total expenditure divided by a number of aircraft. Whether the nation buys any aircraft, there will be different parts and tools packages value. There isn't one set price as the packages differ.It helps to realize that when people talk costs, that falls into one of three general categories (URF, Flyaway, and Weapon System Cost).
URF (aka REC or "out of factory"): This is the cost to produce the plane and only the plane. It includes all electronics and the engine.
Flyaway: This is the URF plus non-recurring costs like assembly line upgrades, Post-SDD upgrade dev, etc.
WSC: This is EVERYTHING (except initial spares) that goes into buying a F-35 in any one year. This could also include Full-Motion sims, training manuals, support equipment, etc.
Attached is a graph I put together (from the Dec 21st, 2011 SAR) when I was researching Turkey's F-35 buy.
View attachment 5333
Now depending on when the Dutch buy their planes, you can figure it out. I included the REC,Flyaway, and WSC costs in the chart.
btw, A production F-35 has NEVER cost $389 million USD, not even the very first one and also taking the worst-case WSC numbers. Current FY2013 F-35As (what you would get if you placed your order today) is estimated at $117/152/188 for REC/Flyaway/WSC. Keep in mind this is for one of only 19 (USAF) produced in 2013. By 2018 this will get up to 60 (USAF) plus any Partner + Japan + Israel + etc buys. This is why the price drops significantly in the late LRIP & first FRP years.
The last thing to keep in mind is that for the sake of simplicity, larger long-term programs are quoted in a base-line cost value. In other words when price is quoted it often is in a baseline dollar amount. For a long time this was a 2002 value. This year they went to a 2012 value and it made the program look a little more expensive due to inflation. The reason they use baseline amounts is that otherwise the price would seem to go up by 2-4% every year. This would lead to a lot of panic, confusion,etc. Part of the problem is that some people are talking baseline 2002, 2006, 2009, 2012, etc so their number will never match even thought they are talking about the same price.
To put this in real terms, today's 2012 dollar is 26% more than a 2002 dollar due to inflation.
Tom's Inflation Calculator
Thanks.Your link is broken
Here it is:
F-35 Total Costs Soar to $1.5 Trillion; Lockheed Defends Program
As to what the $83.4 refers to, I do not know because he does not state in what calendar year the dollars are based on. According to the latest SAR, the average lifetime REC flyaway for the F-35A is $78.4 mil in FY2012 baseline dollars.
Beatmaster, as myself and others have been attempting to point out, when people starting talking about prices for programmes and aircraft, unless one is talking about the same conditions, the prices are going to be wildly different.Lol you kidding me so you are saying that the JSF will cost 71 -73 mil as per?
That would be amazing, considering that a F-16 cost 100 mil.
In other words, the price is not $128 mil. per aircraft, because that price include weapons and support for the purchased aircraft as well. Incidentally, the cost of weapons and support package can easily equal or exceed over half of the total programme costs.Dec 12/11: 2nd Squadron Request. The US DSCA announces [PDF] Iraq’s request for what amounts to a 2nd operational squadron of F-16IQs, plus weapons. The request for 18 more fighters would bring Iraq’s total to 36, but unlike their initial December 2010 request, the figure given is up to $2.3 billion, instead of $4.2 billion; 1st-time sales are always more expensive.
Also included: site survey support equipment, Joint Mission Planning System, Ground Based Flight Simulator, tanker support, ferry services, Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD), repair and return, modification kits, spares and repair parts, construction, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical, engineering, and logistics support services, ground based flight simulator, and other related support.