Eurofighter Typhoon - Breaking News From Riyadh.

[Izzy1]

True with regards Typhoon. It is one of two major failings in the design IMHO, lack of stealth (despite what the company says about advanced composite use in its construction) and the lack of thrust vectoring capability now or in the near future (still a bloody good engine though). However, lets be honest, only the FA-22 will surpass its capabilities, I'd bet on Typhoon's capabilities against JSF/JCA and the Su-27/35 anytime.

One story I heard this morning with regards the Typhoon/Saudi deal - and I must admit, I am not so sure how probable it is but it is from a very good source here in Riyadh.

As noted, the Tornado ADV and the F-5 Tiger II will be the first aircraft to be replaced by Typhoon in RSAF service. The Saudis have already disclosed a deal to sell a number of Tiger IIs to Brazil. The Tornado ADV (never a popular platform with the RSAF) will apparently as part of the Typhoon deal, be given back to BAE Systems for disposal. Some 20+ ADVs are involved (a couple will apparently be kept by the RSAF for "gate guard" duties) having both low flight hours, excellent maintanence and a plentiful stock of Skyflash AAMs.

And who apparently is BAE going to sell these ADVs too??? Wait for it....


Libya.

The words "Bad" and "Idea" come to mind...

 

[Crusader2000]

True with regards Typhoon. It is one of two major failings in the design IMHO, lack of stealth (despite what the company says about advanced composite use in its construction) and the lack of thrust vectoring capability now or in the near future (still a bloody good engine though). However, lets be honest, only the FA-22 will surpass its capabilities, I'd bet on Typhoon's capabilities against JSF/JCA and the Su-27/35 anytime.

One story I heard this morning with regards the Typhoon/Saudi deal - and I must admit, I am not so sure how probable it is but it is from a very good source here in Riyadh.

As noted, the Tornado ADV and the F-5 Tiger II will be the first aircraft to be replaced by Typhoon in RSAF service. The Saudis have already disclosed a deal to sell a number of Tiger IIs to Brazil. The Tornado ADV (never a popular platform with the RSAF) will apparently as part of the Typhoon deal, be given back to BAE Systems for disposal. Some 20+ ADVs are involved (a couple will apparently be kept by the RSAF for "gate guard" duties) having both low flight hours, excellent maintanence and a plentiful stock of Skyflash AAMs.

And who apparently is BAE going to sell these ADVs too??? Wait for it....


Libya.

The words "Bad" and "Idea" come to mind...

I guess we will have to disagree on the JSF vs Typhoon? While I personally think the Typhoon is a excellent Air Superiority Fighter and far superior to the Rafale and Flanker. Its just that Stealth gives the JSF such a advantage. Further, combined with the JSF state of the art avionics and weapon systems (AESA, IRST, HMDS, AIM-9X, AIM-120D's, etc.) it will be hard to beat. With the exception of the F-22 Raptor of course.

As for secondhand ADV Tornados going to Libya. Well, that's hard to believe! I would like to see some country pick them up. As a platform they still offer much............................

 

[tphuang]

I guess we will have to disagree on the JSF vs Typhoon? While I personally think the Typhoon is a excellent Air Superiority Fighter and far superior to the Rafale and Flanker. Its just that Stealth gives the JSF such a advantage. Further, combined with the JSF state of the art avionics and weapon systems (AESA, IRST, HMDS, AIM-9X, AIM-120D's, etc.) it will be hard to beat. With the exception of the F-22 Raptor of course.

As for secondhand ADV Tornados going to Libya. Well, that's hard to believe! I would like to see some country pick them up. As a platform they still offer much............................

well, Typhoon uses 70% composite material, it's RCS is supposed to be the lowest outside of JSF and raptor. Although the developer of Rafale claims the same thing. I personally think that when JSF comes out, Typhoon would already be equipped with AMSAR radar and possible TVC engine. So basically, Typhoon would not be a stealth fighter like JSF, but it would be far more manuverable (JSF isn't capable of supercruise at supersonic speed). Typhoon is supposedly even more manuverable than raptor at certain situations.

 

[Crusader2000]

well, Typhoon uses 70% composite material, it's RCS is supposed to be the lowest outside of JSF and raptor. Although the developer of Rafale claims the same thing. I personally think that when JSF comes out, Typhoon would already be equipped with AMSAR radar and possible TVC engine. So basically, Typhoon would not be a stealth fighter like JSF, but it would be far more manuverable (JSF isn't capable of supercruise at supersonic speed). Typhoon is supposedly even more manuverable than raptor at certain situations.

Well, I guess we will have to disagree at this point. Yet, more information will come out with time. So, we shall see..................

 

[Dr Phobus]

Well, I guess we will have to disagree at this point. Yet, more information will come out with time. So, we shall see..................

The weapon system in relation too JSF( ans F-22A) and Typhoon: well in terms of AAM, I would argue the Typhoon with meteor and IRST/ASRAAM PI will be at least equal if not superior. 9X is a fine missile, but bit to linear developmental constraints is inferior to IRST/ASRAAM and Pyton 5 in certain aspects. Meteor seems very formidable, well at least on paper, its the first truly pan-European AAM, indeed, I heard its development has made the US restart the ram jet AAM program.

Moreover, both will be equipped with IRST and AESA radar.

You will not find an inferior weapon system on Typhoon. Obviously JSF stealth features will be a factor, but so will AESA radar and software with enhanced ability to detect, recognize and track very small RCS targets. Also, look for increased usage of IR senors..

question: i "thought" Rafale had better frontal aspect stealth that typhoon,
any one got comments or hard info ?

:vamp :vamp

 

[fieldmarshal]

Reading all the diff comments and analysis on this particular thread, the 1 thing that comes again n again is the fact that a lot of ppl redicule and under estimate the Saudis in general and RSAF in particular.
While some of it might be true but most of it lacks any sort of foundation.
After the aqusation of 200 the said ac, RSAF will become the best af in the whole of asia and africa, and 1 of the best in the world. not only this but the saudi tornados and the f-15 are all set to go for an mlu. Even the isreali will be hard pressed to meet the challenge untill the arrival of jsf..
The main ciriticisim of the Saudi seem to be that they lack the man power to maintain and opperate the said ac.
Now this argument holds no water, we tend to forget that em saudis are loaded with cash and where ever they fall short of manpower they import. So the result is along side their airmen, technicians and pilots they have the best airmen, technicians and pilots from around the world namely, Pakistan, british, US etc.

I dont know if u guys knows this but the Saudis have the largest maintainance faclilty out side the US for the f-15 built by boeing ( i met a few ppl n they said it is the best in the world). The typhoon deal involves some sort of tot as well.

So in short some respect is in order, as their is more than wt meets the eye.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Even the isreali will be hard pressed to meet the challenge untill the arrival of jsf..

I think you might be overstating their capability on F-15's.

• the singaporeans and the sth koreans have the more modern (non-Israeli) export versions
• the singaporeans have a robust and developed military technology industry which is autonomous and very very highly regarded at the capability level.
• the singaporeans and the israelis share substantial tech info - and that includes integration issues
• the israelis have the weapons load and fitment source codes - so they are able to modify their F-15's for whatever weapons fits they desire
• the very close relationship with Israel will see the Singaporeans make Ewarfare pod changes - and certainly weapons fitment changes. A few of the Israeli weapons/warfare systems are superior to what even NATO members have. The Wild Weasel type packages being a classic example.

With the greatest of respect - the Saudis have none of this and are restricted to a variation of the "non-NATO client" vendor support model. that usually and historically translates to a less comprehensive model and a less robust support vehicle re comprehension of platform capability.

Now this argument holds no water, we tend to forget that em saudis are loaded with cash and where ever they fall short of manpower they import. So the result is along side their airmen, technicians and pilots they have the best airmen, technicians and pilots from around the world namely, Pakistan, british, US etc.

and with emphasis on my prev, money does not enable them to have maint and modification autonomy of the platform. (F-15) they may have some of the best support facilities outside of CONUS that are designed to support the sheer volume of platforms owned - but that does not translate to overall platforms development and autonomous package research. the US does not provide the Saudis with package support above NATO members - and that by default is a delimiter.

I dont know if u guys knows this but the Saudis have the largest maintainance faclilty out side the US for the f-15 built by boeing ( i met a few ppl n they said it is the best in the world).

again, the size of the facility does not equate to capability and competency in modifying the platform to suit local needs or a capacity to be able to change weapons fitments beyond some US/NATO spec sources. Facilities that enable the inclusion of local/autonomous weapons development and testing, Ewarfare development etc mean much more than having what equates to the biggest F-15 garage in the world outside of CONUS.

The typhoon deal involves some sort of tot as well.

what ToT has been alluded to? I'd be interested to see what the UK is handing off in light of the other frame adjustments that have to be made with such a large order.

So in short some respect is in order, as their is more than wt meets the eye.

Certainly respect is in order for any military, but overstating competency and capability does them a disservice. Countries that build and breakdown their own aircraft as part of an ongoing service and improvement process tend to have a far greater appreciation and capability in operating their platforms. That level of maintenance and modification intimacy changes the capability value matrix completely.

 

[Dr Phobus]

True with regards Typhoon. It is one of two major failings in the design IMHO, lack of stealth (despite what the company says about advanced composite use in its construction) and the lack of thrust vectoring capability now or in the near future (still a bloody good engine though). However, lets be honest, only the FA-22 will surpass its capabilities, I'd bet on Typhoon's capabilities against JSF/JCA and the Su-27/35 anytime.

One story I heard this morning with regards the Typhoon/Saudi deal - and I must admit, I am not so sure how probable it is but it is from a very good source here in Riyadh.

As noted, the Tornado ADV and the F-5 Tiger II will be the first aircraft to be replaced by Typhoon in RSAF service. The Saudis have already disclosed a deal to sell a number of Tiger IIs to Brazil. The Tornado ADV (never a popular platform with the RSAF) will apparently as part of the Typhoon deal, be given back to BAE Systems for disposal. Some 20+ ADVs are involved (a couple will apparently be kept by the RSAF for "gate guard" duties) having both low flight hours, excellent maintanence and a plentiful stock of Skyflash AAMs.

And who apparently is BAE going to sell these ADVs too??? Wait for it....


Libya.

The words "Bad" and "Idea" come to mind...

Libya, my god why ? to reward them for being good non-terror supporters in the modern age. Interesting, very interesting. any ideas why the ADV was unpopular amoung RSAF ?

I feel i was right in the my prediction of a small but heaiver/multi role figther force. So, where does this all leave the light weigth figther idea ?

 

[fieldmarshal]

I think you might be overstating their capability on F-15's.

• the singaporeans and the sth koreans have the more modern (non-Israeli) export versions
• the singaporeans have a robust and developed military technology industry which is autonomous and very very highly regarded at the capability level.
• the singaporeans and the israelis share substantial tech info - and that includes integration issues
• the israelis have the weapons load and fitment source codes - so they are able to modify their F-15's for whatever weapons fits they desire
• the very close relationship with Israel will see the Singaporeans make Ewarfare pod changes - and certainly weapons fitment changes. A few of the Israeli weapons/warfare systems are superior to what even NATO members have. The Wild Weasel type packages being a classic example

With the greatest of respect - the Saudis have none of this and are restricted to a variation of the "non-NATO client" vendor support model. that usually and historically translates to a less comprehensive model and a less robust support vehicle re comprehension of platform capability..

• I think u ment "under-stating" the capabilities of the F-15.
• Well it is an amazing platform the eagle n the strike eagle are awosome in their capabilities. But are no match when it comes Typhoon. Eurofighter is a couple of generations ahead of the eagle. Typhoon at the present moment is not even in its complete shape ie the final product is not out as yet, but by the time they are delivered to the RSAF they will be + the typhoon is just starting its life cycle while the eagle is at the end of it. I am not saying that its a walk over but at the same time their is no comparison.
• U know wt IAF is over rated by all means, they had their ass kicked royally by the egyptians in 73 and they ran to uncle sam, after that they have only fought with weak opositions until now. The day they come across some body of note u will know wt i am saying.
• The confilcts in this part of the world normally last weeks and at the most months. So for that even if the supplier be it the americans or the europeans put an embargo, they the Saudies will eb able to handle it with the stores.
• Inspit of wt every 1 says i know it for a fact that the saudis have the source codes for their eagles n will for typhoon as well, other wise they will not buy the bird.
• the only reason y the singaporians choose the eagle was they were in search of a stop gap solution till the arrival of jsf n that exactly wt f-15 is a stop gap solution, also their close relationship with with isreali has some part to play in the whole situation n not to forget american arm twisting n some plan old apesment

and with emphasis on my prev, money does not enable them to have maint and modification autonomy of the platform. (F-15) they may have some of the best support facilities outside of CONUS that are designed to support the sheer volume of platforms owned - but that does not translate to overall platforms development and autonomous package research. the US does not provide the Saudis with package support above NATO members - and that by default is a delimiter..

• when the platform was baught, at that point in time they the saudis were not even thinking of the things that u have stated above, as their was no need? why cuz the american were a garantor of their security & they knew that.
• At the same time they had no infrastructre to take care of the said ac infact any ac, so they were glad that boeing had agreed to put up the facility in house. Now this is the simple process of evolution, every thing takes time and they have matured with time and have demanded more of the producer to which it has obliged.

again, the size of the facility does not equate to capability and competency in modifying the platform to suit local needs or a capacity to be able to change weapons fitments beyond some US/NATO spec sources. Facilities that enable the inclusion of local/autonomous weapons development and testing, Ewarfare development etc mean much more than having what equates to the biggest F-15 garage in the world outside of CONUS..

• Ur putting words in my mouth, my statement was a general piece of info which most board members had no idea of.
• The size of the facility does indicate a will + it most certainly does equate to a capability and a competency. the weapons compliment that the saudi birds come with are some of the best going around, so y would u want somthing diff. No 1 is lookin to reinvent the wheel.
• Most of the isreali weapons are knockoffs of american or european weapons. They are great at industrial espinage.

what ToT has been alluded to? I'd be interested to see what the UK is handing off in light of the other frame adjustments that have to be made with such a large order..

Ull be surprised.

Certainly respect is in order for any military, but overstating competency and capability does them a disservice. Countries that build and breakdown their own aircraft as part of an ongoing service and improvement process tend to have a far greater appreciation and capability in operating their platforms. That level of maintenance and modification intimacy changes the capability value matrix completely.

• No 1 is going over board here in appricating the Saudis, they have their weaknessess and flaws, so dows every 1 else. ALL i am saying is call a spade a spade.
• They can perform complete overhaul at that faclity, so i am sure they have a great apprication in opp the birds.

 

[gf0012-aust]

• I think u ment "under-stating" the capabilities of the F-15.

No, I know exactly what I meant. The RSAF F-15's are export model "A's". They cannot be modifid to to a D and E standard (the latest USAF config) and definitely not to the SG/SK or I standard without major rework. That includes a re-harness and changes to hardware. The changes to latter hardware are also not possible as the airframe is different. They might look like an F15 on the outside - but that has little relationship to current releases/models

• Well it is an amazing platform the eagle n the strike eagle are awosome in their capabilities. But are no match when it comes Typhoon.

and that is based on what evidence? I've seen some of the unreleased perf data and it makes it clear that in the mission profiles tested, that the F-15(Mod) was superior in the critical dynamics defined in the assessment process. That's not meant to disparage the Typhoon at all - as the major stumbling block for it was on the fact that it could not meet the required delivery times, and was restricted at current tranche levele to an AA role.

• Eurofighter is a couple of generations ahead of the eagle.

In actual fact they both have comparative start development cycles. They are not a couple of generations apart at all - in fact the issue that the Typhoon could not run with the full suite of Singapores existing weapons requirements was an issue

• Typhoon at the present moment is not even in its complete shape ie the final product is not out as yet, but by the time they are delivered to the RSAF they will be + the typhoon is just starting its life cycle while the eagle is at the end of it. I am not saying that its a walk over but at the same time their is no comparison.

The issue is that the Typhoon is 3-4 years out of being ready for delivery at the AG level - and thus it didn't meet the availability requirements set in the RFT.

• U know wt IAF is over rated by all means, they had their ass kicked royally by the egyptians in 73 and they ran to uncle sam, after that they have only fought with weak opositions until now. The day they come across some body of note u will know wt i am saying.

Keep the answers professional. Behaving like a child does not further your argument. One can also use a similar argument about the Soviets streaming replacement kit to the Egyptians and Syrians via the Baltic Fleet as the air forces were being attrited so much. Either way, any Strategic House or Analysis Institute repeatedly picks the Israelis as being the far more competent, holistic and flexible military in the region. The failings of the opening stages of 73 are due to hubris more than anything. btw the Israelis flogged the Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians and about 5 members of the AL before substantial US replacement stocks were in momentum. You seem to ignore the fact that the Egyptians made the same hysterical comments about US support and appealed to the Soviets. At that stage the Soviets made it very clear - and in public - that the US was not supplying equipment or assistance via the 5th Fleet or from NATO war stocks. The Egyptians made public appeals to the Soviets to step in and attack the Israelis as they accused the US of providing overmatch aid - whatever people may choose to believe in support of their arguments, the bottom line is that the Soviets are on record as denying that happening - as such they also declined to step in and assist.

• Inspit of wt every 1 says i know it for a fact that the saudis have the source codes for their eagles n will for typhoon as well, other wise they will not buy the bird.

I can tell you for a fact that they don't. If they did they would have been fitting some non US weapons and they certainly wouldn't have decided as far back as Feb last year (2005) that they were going to divest themselves of the F-15's as upgrades were not worth it. I can assure you completely that they Saudis were never provided with source codes. Thats one of the reasons as to why they ended up with E3's as a form of force multiplication as a way of compensation. The only countries provided with source codes from that procurement period were the Israelis and the Japanese. And that was because they were building their own Ewarfare components (and in the Israelis case - their own weapons systems)

• the only reason y the singaporians choose the eagle was they were in search of a stop gap solution till the arrival of jsf n that exactly wt f-15 is a stop gap solution, also their close relationship with with isreali has some part to play in the whole situation n not to forget american arm twisting n some plan old apesment

Absolute rubbish. The official report from SG makes it clear that the main hindrance was a failure to be able to deliver the AG model within the expected time frame - BAE more or less knew this at the time of offer but were hoping that they could swing it anyway. The following is an excerpt of an email I received from someone within the process who would know far more than what has been publicly released:

"timing was a major issue, as SIN wanted Tranche 2 jets which wont be in service with the partner countries before 2010. I think there were also integration issues with alot of the 'special' equipment and weapons SIN wanted installed in the jets, a la their F-16Ds with their Israeli EW kits."

as for appeasement - the Sings have a reputation for being very very independant players - they will not be bullied or co-erced by anyone. Thats why they're regarded as a "gold" player. The French tried that ridiculous comment about the Sings when they knew Rafale had lost out. All in all a demonstration of a failure to comprehend the principle client - and a surefire way to not get any future buisness as well...

• At the same time they had no infrastructre to take care of the said ac infact any ac, so they were glad that boeing had agreed to put up the facility in house. Now this is the simple process of evolution, every thing takes time and they have matured with time and have demanded more of the producer to which it has obliged.

and the manufacturer has not given the Saudis access to anything that changes the initial package. Source Code requires State Department and Congressional approval - none of that has even been considered - and quite frankly would not have been considered.

• The size of the facility does indicate a will + it most certainly does equate to a capability and a competency. the weapons compliment that the saudi birds come with are some of the best going around, so y would u want somthing diff. No 1 is lookin to reinvent the wheel.

The size of the facility is in direct relationship to the servicing needs - it doesn't demonstrate a further competency beyond maint requirements. The Boeing support facility does not involve platform modification and development structures

• Most of the isreali weapons are knockoffs of american or european weapons. They are great at industrial espinage.

What rubbish. They were a generation ahead of everyone in developing popup cruise missiles, a half generation ahead in developing on board jamming for all their aircraft, a generation ahead in developing UAV's for theatre work, the first to field UCAV's, the first to develop ground based laser systems, the first to develop fieldable microsatellites. They were the first of the non major nuke powers to develop mini nukes for cruise missiles

Their missiles, be it Python and Arrow are regarded as being generally superior to the american sidewinder and patriot.

Another words, their development competency is up there for all to see - it's not half baked. Why do you think the Chinese have been so keen to bring them into the development loop of various systems?

Getting venal about the Israelis capability does nothing to support your argument at all.

• Ull be surprised.

I guess I will be. I know some of the people on the BAE procurement team - and none of them have remotely indicated that the Saudis are getting "special add ons"

• They can perform complete overhaul at that faclity, so i am sure they have a great apprication in opp the birds.

yes I agree - but that is NOT the same as being competent enough to go and develop and design intimate and critical sub systems to enhance capability. Autonomy of management and systems development is a measurement of capability at the top end of the assessment equation.

 

[fieldmarshal]

No, I know exactly what I meant. .

Well thats wt i said in my initial statement, so i dont knows wt the disagreement is about.

and that is based on what evidence? I've seen some of the unreleased perf data and it makes it clear that in the mission profiles tested, that the F-15(Mod) was superior in the critical dynamics defined in the assessment process. That's not meant to disparage the Typhoon at all - as the major stumbling block for it was on the fact that it could not meet the required delivery times, and was restricted at current tranche levele to an AA role..

Wt we have in front of us is not the final/export varient of the typhoon, yes theri are delays but which ac has not had delays, look at the jsf program, u think it will be delivered on time? look at the cost over runs. The reason for the cut in the number of f-22 by usaf is because of jsf cost overun.

In actual fact they both have comparative start development cycles. They are not a couple of generations apart at all - in fact the issue that the Typhoon could not run with the full suite of Singapores existing weapons requirements was an issue.

i say it again theri is no comparison between the 2. Before entering the compatition they both knew that and the understanding was that by the time of delivery every thing will be ready n in place.

The issue is that the Typhoon is 3-4 years out of being ready for delivery at the AG level - and thus it didn't meet the availability requirements set in the RFT..

i agree.

Keep the answers professional. Behaving like a child does not further your argument..

Well wt do have to say about ur comment above, u think that is professional to call others "chind".

Absolute rubbish. The official report from SG makes it clear that the main hindrance was a failure to be able to deliver the AG model within the expected time frame - BAE more or less knew this at the time of offer but were hoping that they could swing it anyway. The following is an excerpt of an email I received from someone within the process who would know far more than what has been publicly released:

"timing was a major issue, as SIN wanted Tranche 2 jets which wont be in service with the partner countries before 2010. I think there were also integration issues with alot of the 'special' equipment and weapons SIN wanted installed in the jets, a la their F-16Ds with their Israeli EW kits.".

Well if that was the case than the singaporians knew that before the typhoon entered the compatition, y did they not object to it at the time.
Wt do u talk of intagration, they are operating f-16 and some are still rolling off the assembly line, so if they wanted initgration than they should have gone for f-16 block 60 or the sufa and they would have no intigration problem. Y would u want to choose a new platform when u only intent to acquire 20 ac in total.
They at the same time are fullflect partners in the jsf program, so a transition from f-16 to jsf would have been smooth but their choice of an all togather diff platform is mindbogglin, specially when u take into acc the numbers involved.
Now when i say its a stopgap solution, wt i am tryint to tell u is that they strongly believe that their will be delays in the development of the ac n delays in delivery specially if u consider the numbers involved (by last count 5000+). So untill the jsf arrives f-15 will do.

and the manufacturer has not given the Saudis access to anything that changes the initial package. Source Code requires State Department and Congressional approval - none of that has even been considered - and quite frankly would not have been considered..

their are more than 1 ways to skin a cat.

The size of the facility is in direct relationship to the servicing needs - it doesn't demonstrate a further competency beyond maint requirements. The Boeing support facility does not involve platform modification and development structures.

no point arguin u have ur point of view n i mine.

What rubbish. They were a generation ahead of everyone in developing popup cruise missiles, a half generation ahead in developing on board jamming for all their aircraft, a generation ahead in developing UAV's for theatre work, the first to field UCAV's, the first to develop ground based laser systems, the first to develop fieldable microsatellites. They were the first of the non major nuke powers to develop mini nukes for cruise missiles.

i stick to wt i said.

Getting venal about the Israelis capability does nothing to support your argument at all.

y would call me venal, u talk about professionalism or u mean every 1 other than ur self.
not nice man, u disapoint me.

The problem with both the eurofighter and rafale has been funding, , in the euro fighter all the members want germany to fund the tranch-3 developemt in full and they have been threatening to pull out if it does not and the french they have the same prob with their ac ( but of extreme nature)
Now the final developemt prob has been solved, so when i say that when the said ac is delivered to the Saudis it will be the world's most capable, dynamic and only swing-role combat aircraft!.
So theri is no match.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Well if that was the case than the singaporians knew that before the typhoon entered the compatition, y did they not object to it at the time.

because the Singaporians actually operate a proper hi-lo mix combat element. the roles for the F-16 and F-15 are vastly different. The roles for the F-16 and A-4 were vastly different. The F-15 is being tasked to pick up the A4's role plus long range penetration.

Wt do u talk of intagration, they are operating f-16 and some are still rolling off the assembly line, so if they wanted initgration than they should have gone for f-16 block 60 or the sufa and they would have no intigration problem. Y would u want to choose a new platform when u only intent to acquire 20 ac in total.

See above. Also there is still an issue of perhaps another 40 x aircraft being purchased - dependant on whether they commit to JSF or not. Singapore is not in the interim buyers list, so that means JSF owneship will only occur after other deliveries are in place or someone elects to forego their own interim orders. - or if they withdraw from the process.

They at the same time are fullflect partners in the jsf program,

They are not full fledged partners.

so a transition from f-16 to jsf would have been smooth but their choice of an all togather diff platform is mindbogglin, specially when u take into acc the numbers involved.

No, again note that they run a real hi-lo combat mix. Platforms are requirements based.

Now when i say its a stopgap solution, wt i am tryint to tell u is that they strongly believe that their will be delays in the development of the ac n delays in delivery specially if u consider the numbers involved (by last count 5000+).

because every govt and production announcement to date has reinforced slippage - its an acknowledged problem already.

So untill the jsf arrives f-15 will do.

The acquisition is not based on the a purchase - it is based on the fact that they wanted a replacement for their scooters - and as such there is a convenient overlap on functional and capability merge. The F-15 purchase has nothing to do with JSF.

no point arguin u have ur point of view n i mine.

then tell me where in my response is there any inaccuracy. the israelis historically have demonstrated self sufficiency and capability by all leading military publications of long repute. strat analysis house have also been constant. about their capability. certainly the russians, chinese and french also seem to think so.

i stick to wt i said.

I accept that - but I'd like you to articulate in detail why you have that view which contradicts industry professionals, industry analysts - and people like me who actually do work with weapons projects and systems - so I don;t have just an internet view of the military world.

y would call me venal, u talk about professionalism or u mean every 1 other than ur self. not nice man, u disapoint me.

Look up venal - then look at the comment about israeli capability in light of this discussion. it lacked relevance and was a cheap and inaccurate shot. you are capable of better.

The problem with both the eurofighter and rafale has been funding, , in the euro fighter all the members want germany to fund the tranch-3 developemt in full and they have been threatening to pull out if it does not and the french they have the same prob with their ac ( but of extreme nature)

The french don't have a problem with funding - they have a problem with marketing and with having the aircraft compete against specific tenders. thats a performance issue.

Now the final developemt prob has been solved, so when i say that when the said ac is delivered to the Saudis it will be the world's most capable, dynamic and only swing-role combat aircraft!.
So theri is no match.

How can you even begin to say that when Typhoon has significant development hurdles to reach tranche stages? the AG role is not fulfilled until 2010 - and that assumes no slippage. I fail to see how you can argue about the saudi derivative when I know for a fact that she will not be supplied at the NATO level - that means delimited weapons certification.

 

[fieldmarshal]

We are going around in circles.

because the Singaporians actually operate a proper hi-lo mix combat element. the roles for the F-16 and F-15 are vastly different. The roles for the F-16 and A-4 were vastly different. The F-15 is being tasked to pick up the A4's role plus long range penetration..

ok, now in the mix of things that are to come in the singapore af, f-15 will eventually form the low end of the mix. But till the time jsf enters service they will be the ac that fill give the singaporains a stop gap solution n will form the hi part of the mix, as they they will not see the jsf till 2010-15
Another reason for the singaporians going for a twin engine ac rather than a single engine ac has to do with the malaysian decision to go for super hornet n su-30.

See above. Also there is still an issue of perhaps another 40 x aircraft being purchased - dependant on whether they commit to JSF or not. Singapore is not in the interim buyers list, so that means JSF owneship will only occur after other deliveries are in place or someone elects to forego their own interim orders. - or if they withdraw from the process..

wt do mean commit, they already have put money in the jsf project, so they have jumped into the jsf project head long. U should not have any doubt their commitment.

They are not full fledged partners..

than money must be growing on trees in singapore, but if ur still not stisfied than i can post the DOD report to GAO for u.

No, again note that they run a real hi-lo combat mix. Platforms are requirements based..

Like i said jsf will form the high end of the mix while f-16/f-15 the low end.

because every govt and production announcement to date has reinforced slippage - its an acknowledged problem already..

So wt am i sayin

The acquisition is not based on the a purchase - it is based on the fact that they wanted a replacement for their scooters - and as such there is a convenient overlap on functional and capability merge. The F-15 purchase has nothing to do with JSF..

they bought the f-16 to replace the so called scooters, they dident need the f-15 for that role, ill say it again its a stop gap solution.



t

hen tell me where in my response is there any inaccuracy. the israelis historically have demonstrated self sufficiency and capability by all leading military publications of long repute. strat analysis house have also been constant. about their capability. certainly the russians, chinese and french also seem to think so..

Well all the major publications of note are controlled by the jews, so giving them selves some pat on the back. all the isreali weapons of note are untried n tested in actual combat situation.
n yes they are very self efficent no doubt about it, but they are the biggest espionage agency in the world. they will do wt ever it takes to get hold of wt they are after as they know no 1 will touch em n i respect that infact all should be like that.

I accept that - but I'd like you to articulate in detail why you have that view which contradicts industry professionals, industry analysts - and people like me who actually do work with weapons projects and systems - so I don;t have just an internet view of the military world..

Well if u take a closer look at the development team ie its members n see their past ie where they have worked + you see all the other R&D going on around the world in that specific area etc youll know wt i am talking about.
You say the isreali were a generation ahead in developing UAV's.
UAVs, such as the Northrop Falconer, had been developed for battlefield reconnaissance beginning in the 1950s. WT they did was take all the available tech n put it to the right use, n thier south labanon mis adventure was the perfect marketing gimic which not only renewed the interest in the uav but made it the big "in thinging".

Look up venal - then look at the comment about israeli capability in light of this discussion. it lacked relevance and was a cheap and inaccurate shot. you are capable of better...

I think ur the one who needs to look it up, its not a nice thing to say.

The french don't have a problem with funding - they have a problem with marketing and with having the aircraft compete against specific tenders. thats a performance issue..

The French company shelved their larger growth export version of the Rafale in March 2003, for the reason that there was no longer enough of an export market to justify the cost of its development. Without this larger, more capable variant, the Rafale's competitive standing in the Singapore competition was considerably reduced.

How can you even begin to say that when Typhoon has significant development hurdles to reach tranche stages? the AG role is not fulfilled until 2010 - and that assumes no slippage. I fail to see how you can argue about the saudi derivative when I know for a fact that she will not be supplied at the NATO level - that means delimited weapons certification.

It had development hurdles brought on by financial difficulties now with the saudis deal they have been resolved. When did i say that the saudis will get somthing special, they will get the export version.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Another reason for the singaporians going for a twin engine ac rather than a single engine ac has to do with the malaysian decision to go for super hornet n su-30.

The Singaporean modified F-16's are more than capable enough to deal with the Malaysian Su-30's. The reason for twins is that they have a greater loadout, longer range and larger EWarfare capability. They are projection and peristence issues.

wt do mean commit, they already have put money in the jsf project, so they have jumped into the jsf project head long. U should not have any doubt their commitment.

than money must be growing on trees in singapore, but if ur still not stisfied than i can post the DOD report to GAO for u.

You need to read their internal white paper. They have entered the JSF under the same provisions as the other Tier 3 partners. ie They like the others can and may withdraw if they think that the cost blows out. The RAAF as a Tier 2 is spending more money but is a partner under a similar provision. it is NOT a committment to buy irrespective of what amount is put in. Singapore as a Tier 3 has less committment than the Tier 1 or 2 partners

BTW I have read the JSF contract - its been part of my job to understand it for some supplier issues.

they bought the f-16 to replace the so called scooters, they dident need the f-15 for that role, ill say it again its a stop gap solution.

for goodness sake. they have bought the F-15's to replace the scooters - it is a ground and potentially maritime strike and persistence role. Read the Singaporeans requirements - don't make things up.

Well all the major publications of note are controlled by the jews, so giving them selves some pat on the back. all the isreali weapons of note are untried n tested in actual combat situation.

Really? Please tell me which major publications are controlled by Jewish interests? Does this mean that the Russian and Chinese reports are managed by the Israelis as well?

yes they are very self efficent no doubt about it, but they are the biggest espionage agency in the world.

No. The Chinese have the largest HUMINT agency in the world. The FSB is about 10 times bigger than the Israelis cluster of agencies.

Well if u take a closer look at the development team ie its members n see their past ie where they have worked + you see all the other R&D going on around the world in that specific area etc youll know wt i am talking about.

You say the isreali were a generation ahead in developing UAV's.
UAVs, such as the Northrop Falconer, had been developed for battlefield reconnaissance beginning in the 1950s. WT they did was take all the available tech n put it to the right use, n thier south labanon mis adventure was the perfect marketing gimic which not only renewed the interest in the uav but made it the big "in thinging".

They were the first to develop and use UAV's in a co-ordinated combat persistent role as part of a prosecution policy. The Ryan Firebees were not developed for that role and were experimental in the main. As for the other firsts - its interesting that so many countries have adopted their doctrine and usage of other systems. That denotes quite clearly a level of expertise.

I think ur the one who needs to look it up, its not a nice thing to say.

and which is why I've taken you to task. My command of the english language is pretty good, I don't need to look up a basic word to understand context and meaning

The French company shelved their larger growth export version of the Rafale in March 2003, for the reason that there was no longer enough of an export market to justify the cost of its development. Without this larger, more capable variant, the Rafale's competitive standing in the Singapore competition was considerably reduced.

No, look at the Singapore Govts response. It's quite clear. In addition The French went way over, above and beyond to secure the sale. They offered tech transfer on missiles as well as ballistics platforms. There is emerging evidence that they were prepared to reflag existing rafales to secure the sale. In addition. the offer was on existing capability as per local machines - a far different solution than an export and delimited version.

 

[umair]

Field, for what it's worth, you are making little sense (if any) in this discussion. Some of you'r points are valid but the ones about the Israelis and the F-16 as A-4 replacements frankly did'nt make the cut for me. And as far as the Saudi purchase of the Typhoon is concerned, smells like another"Lightening" to me. I'll elaborate on that comment later after I've talked to an old PAF officer I know who knows what went on in that deal.