Eurofighter Typhoon - Breaking News From Riyadh.

[Dr Phobus]

the export list as I see it:
2010+
Rafale, Typhoon, F-35 (2015+ IMO), F-18E, Mig-33(etc), Su-35(etc), J-10, FC-1/JL-17, F-50(/T-50 as in the Korean one not the russian T-50), Gripen and various UCAVs.

Indeed i concur, and only 5 variants to pick from, the gripen will need serious development work to compete. I have seen an artists impression with AESA radar (on the small side), conformal fuel tanks and towed radar decoy, IRST. It will need most of these to compete, without it, it will be hard pressed to find customers in volume. If one is seeking a non US technology warplane, that leave the typhoon and Rafale, since the gripen has an American engine.

I certainly see the J-10 and the FC-1 selling to customers, a lot thought as to do with the avionics and weapons package they can deliver with it.

 

[Brit]

but going back to the original topic, I don't think we'll see too many more Typhoon exports. Who can afford them and is politically aligned to buy them?

Bulgaria? Ukraine? Estonia? Latvia? Eire (lol)? Equador? Chile? Oman? Canada? Romania? No, bleak.

Re the Gripen, I disagree. I think it has good prospects in places like Bulgaria, Romania, Estonia and Latvia. Also Ukraine as the political pendulum swings further West.

 

[Dr Phobus]

but going back to the original topic, I don't think we'll see too many more Typhoon exports. Who can afford them and is politically aligned to buy them?

Bulgaria? Ukraine? Estonia? Latvia? Eire (lol)? Equador? Chile? Oman? Canada? Romania? No, bleak.

Re the Gripen, I disagree. I think it has good prospects in places like Bulgaria, Romania, Estonia and Latvia. Also Ukraine as the political pendulum swings further West.

Eire, evne NZ could beat time, Chile, new and used F-16's, Canada F-35, Ukranie (who knows) The ba;ltic states, F-16's recycled.

I agree it will sell, but not in real volume. It is going to be a more lower end option, and consquently will do ok.

Typhoon perspective customers (IMO): japan, greece, turkey, UAE & belgium, i agree the list is not that great, but theres a chance production could push 900 units, its already at 686 units, close too F-18E/F and raptor combined. This does put into perspective the smaller number of american planes in relation to the F-35.

 

[Brit]

I wouldn't have thought the UAE will buy Typhoon given that they have only just brought F-16s and already have M2k9s with an advance network-centric IAT.

What about Eygpt? Or Tunisia or Algeria?

Romania and Bulgaria seems best bet.

 

[Dr Phobus]

I wouldn't have thought the UAE will buy Typhoon given that they have only just brought F-16s and already have M2k9s with an advance network-centric IAT.

What about Eygpt? Or Tunisia or Algeria?

Romania and Bulgaria seems best bet.

My perspective on UAE is that, at some point they will need a mirage 2000 replacement and with the resources they have and the willingness to buy top of the line equipment then Rafale and typhoon seem an option, albeit in small numbers 20-30. Moreover, they has a nation do not want to not depend fully one american systems. The F-16 are excellent planes, however, they have come in for some critisim in reguards to air manover combat with flanker and fulcrum variants.

tunisia & algeria look to russia, adavanced fulcrum varients (mig-35 ?) i would argue. Eygpt, very good question, they have the second largest fleet outside of the USA for falcons, JSF is the only logical answer i can come up with. A lot will depend on there politcal stability and pro-western stance.

 

[Brit]

I don't think the UAE's M2k9s need replacing any time soon -they were only brought in the 1990s and are intergrated by data link (network centric technology) so their situational awareness is probably more sophisticated than 905 of USAF aircraft right now. In fact they insisted that the F-16s were up to their spec fore data fusion also. So UAE's M2k9s are cutting edge. UAE's next 'fighter' purchase is most likely to be T-50 Golden Eagles off Korea (goodbye EADS Mako) and after that I expect they be into UCAVs.

 

[Dr Phobus]

We shall certainly see, T-50 is a LIFT with supersonic ability. UAE was far from the top of my list for Typhoon customers, in fact is was more or less at the bottom. Portogule wih go for F-35 or Gripen, they have no need for any heavy weigths, the Gripen will be the budget option.

 

[Brit]

Just a thought mate, but I think you are under estimating the Gripen. In the network centric combat environment of tomorrow a small fighter can have just as much situational awareness as a large one which will be a huge equilizer, particularly in air-defence. Gripen is very good for data fusion so it's in a strong position. Given the cost of the various support system, the economy option may turn out to be far MORE capable. i.e:

A crude equilielent:
40 gripen plus 6 Eyrieye AEW aircraft
-v-
40 typhoon and no AEW aircraft (about same total cost?)

-which package is more capable? Given that both the gripen and Typhoon can carry the same missiles (right down to Meteor when it comes out).

 

[adsH]

A crude equilielent:
40 gripen plus 6 Eyrieye AEW aircraft
-v-
40 typhoon and no AEW aircraft (about same total cost?)

-which package is more capable? Given that both the gripen and Typhoon can carry the same missiles (right down to Meteor when it comes out).

I'd Argue the stated comparison above shows an equivlant comparison of capability. You'll still need an AEW (would Bring order to Chaos), You'd bring a whole new dimension to warfare with A capable AEW in the picture. I'd Say bring the number of Typhoons down to about 10 Typhoons with an AEW vs 40 Grip's and 6 AEW aircrafts (I' hate Guess work) but this is how important i think AEW really is. The Typhoons can work Node to node but without the AEW I'm guessing JTDIS information management and Coordination would be hell even with the superior Capabilities of the platform. Other then that The Typhoon would mince a grip .

Just to keep everything in perspective, the newer Eyries are being built around Link 16, I know its sad to see the Swedes drop there Standards to cater for the mass market, But has anyone heard of any planned Eyrie procurements by RSAF (I read an article about it couple of months back). I'd Imagine they would want to Upgrade there Already impressive Networking capabilities. its like how the Americans would term it "do fries come with that shake". Or perhaps another E3 upgrade or a swap-over to the British/Australian BAE systems/Boeing Wedgetail. Personally i think the last two options something they would not opt for they're looking for diversification so i'd bet they'd be interested in the Swedish system.

 

[Brit]

You're confusing me. Are you saying that the Typhoons without AEW supportare still better than Gripens with AEW support?

this is a bit off the wall but the way I see things network-centric data fusion is a great equilizer and will mean that the onboard sensors of the fighter aircraft are ever less important, so much so that a small fighter with crap onboard radar but good data fusion can equal a top of the range fighter. Soon targetting for AAMs will be possible third party. Among other things, this will allow the launch aircraft to remain passive (datalink accepted).

So in the future, any perceived advantage that the Typhoon has over the Gripen (whih at any rate seems to be exagerated), will deminish except to the poorest airforces who can't afford a network-centric infrastructure (and who can least afford the top fighters).

 

[adsH]

You're confusing me. Are you saying that the Typhoons without AEW supportare still better than Gripens with AEW support?

this is a bit off the wall but the way I see things network-centric data fusion is a great equilizer and will mean that the onboard sensors of the fighter aircraft are ever less important, so much so that a small fighter with crap onboard radar but good data fusion can equal a top of the range fighter. Soon targetting for AAMs will be possible third party. Among other things, this will allow the launch aircraft to remain passive (datalink accepted).

So in the future, any perceived advantage that the Typhoon has over the Gripen (whih at any rate seems to be exagerated), will deminish except to the poorest airforces who can't afford a network-centric infrastructure (and who can least afford the top fighters).

Good Point for some odd reason that was sort of my point too , So i guess i was the one at fault, i misunderstood what you were saying. Apologies.

 

[Dr Phobus]

looks like the purchase could be for up too 200 platforms. This is an amazing number, i wonder how true this spectualtion is.. any one have any information, all i am reading it 48 first batch order, options for 72.

 

[Izzy1]

Prince Sultan as CIC of the RSAF, delivered a speech here in Riyadh last Saturday stating that the total order will be for "some 200 Typhoons".

This is going to have serious effects on RAF deliveries, RSAF will be be given priority with regards the manufacture of aircraft and the supply of parts and equipment, as what happened with the Tornado after they signed Al Yamamah I/II. The effect of this then, was major servicability problems for the RAF as parts and expertise were prioritized and diverted to the Saudis from the manufacturers. Hopefully this wont happen again, but I am far from confident.

I fully expect now a reduction to the RAF Tranche III order number, with such platforms originally destined for the RAF being diverted to feed the RSAF's demand.

 

[Dr Phobus]

Interesting, myself, i do not expect a reduced order, the RAF is getting small enough as it is in an increasingly unstable world. However, to be able to cope with greater order the Eurofighter consortium my be able to increase productivity. After all, they work so hard to sell them, but then they are not able to effectively produce them for the customer ? Hopefully things have improved with the production process.

 

[corzair]

The Eurofighter cost Britain £24-Billion in development
Money which could have been more usefully used on many other projects including developing a credible space launch systems (which would be better then wasting money on destructive resourse war - IMHO)
Anyway after spending soo much money its kinda depressing to see a third party given priority over the RAF.
I say that as a britsh born muslim at that!
Maybe its to recoup money that was spent on development but
the RAF is in urgent need of interim aircraft for the multiple roles it undertake
it will be interesting few years ahead...

 

[Aussie Digger]

Prince Sultan as CIC of the RSAF, delivered a speech here in Riyadh last Saturday stating that the total order will be for "some 200 Typhoons".

This is going to have serious effects on RAF deliveries, RSAF will be be given priority with regards the manufacture of aircraft and the supply of parts and equipment, as what happened with the Tornado after they signed Al Yamamah I/II. The effect of this then, was major servicability problems for the RAF as parts and expertise were prioritized and diverted to the Saudis from the manufacturers. Hopefully this wont happen again, but I am far from confident.

I fully expect now a reduction to the RAF Tranche III order number, with such platforms originally destined for the RAF being diverted to feed the RSAF's demand.

Why? The UK as a lead nation may be willing to allow some of it's Tranche 1 or 2 platforms be transferred to Saudi Arabia to allow them to work towards getting their capability operational, but why would it effect the UK in a negative way? Tranche III aircraft have yet even to be ordered. As a lead nation the UK's contracts are already in place for Tranche I/II aircraft. These would have to be re-negotiated for Saudi to take up these aircraft, but why would the UK, allow itself to be affected so greatly?

If they give up Tranche I/II aircraft, it will be so they can get Tranche III aircraft sooner. IMHO.

 

[Izzy1]

The Saudis don't want Tranche I, they are only accepting the first batch of 48 at Tranche II (with eventual upgrade) and basically want the whole fleet to be Tranche III.

BAE is obligated to supply these aircraft because in all honesty, a good slice of that 24 Billion GBP Development Funding for Typhoon apparently came from Saudi in the first place as elements of the Al Yamamah Programme.

The other point to be made about the RAF Tranche III order is the manipulated timing of it. Please correct if I am wrong, but I am nearly certain it is due at the same time as DPA funding decisions in regards to the Nimrod MRA.4 pre-production order, Astute Class SSN second-unit build order, CVF Carrier final development and possibly a decision on continued participation in JSF/JCA? Given the long-matured complaints as to the need for so many Eurofighters, is it not feasible that the Government is setting the programme up for a decreased order?

 

[Crusader2000]

The Saudis don't want Tranche I, they are only accepting the first batch of 48 at Tranche II (with eventual upgrade) and basically want the whole fleet to be Tranche III.

BAE is obligated to supply these aircraft because in all honesty, a good slice of that 24 Billion GBP Development Funding for Typhoon apparently came from Saudi in the first place as elements of the Al Yamamah Programme.

The other point to be made about the RAF Tranche III order is the manipulated timing of it. Please correct if I am wrong, but I am nearly certain it is due at the same time as DPA funding decisions in regards to the Nimrod MRA.4 pre-production order, Astute Class SSN second-unit build order, CVF Carrier final development and possibly a decision on continued participation in JSF/JCA? Given the long-matured complaints as to the need for so many Eurofighters, is it not feasible that the Government is setting the programme up for a decreased order?

Well, this would give give more time to see how the JSF Program matures? There has been some talk of cutting back the number or Typhoons and ordering more F-35's........

 

[Dr Phobus]

Well, this would give give more time to see how the JSF Program matures? There has been some talk of cutting back the number or Typhoons and ordering more F-35's........

I do not see the RAF Trading off, typhoons for more F-35's, more so considering the most recent problems with technology transfer issues with the whole program. Moreover, do not foresee a reduction in the number of typhoon's, air-power is coming more dominant in terms of warfare, especially with wide-spread and affordable PGM/Near PGM's. The UK as the money, but does it have the political will, a more conservative government will.

 

[Crusader2000]

I do not see the RAF Trading off, typhoons for more F-35's, more so considering the most recent problems with technology transfer issues with the whole program. Moreover, do not foresee a reduction in the number of typhoon's, air-power is coming more dominant in terms of warfare, especially with wide-spread and affordable PGM/Near PGM's. The UK as the money, but does it have the political will, a more conservative government will.

Possibly, yet I don't see the Typhoon as being superior to the JSF is a Air Superiority Role? Surely, not as a Strike and/or Tactical Fighter! Further, the UK will have a good share of the JSF Program regardless. So, the loss of a small number of Typhoon's. Would have a much smaller effect and even less so with the big Saudi order. Really, in the 21st Century.............Stealth is the name of the game!