Does Taiwan Army need an MBT?

[long live usa]

in my opinion i dont think so because china would only be able to land a small number of tanks ashore,also America could drop in alot of javelin anti tank sytems in,i think they should make thier M-60s SABRA standard beacuse M-60a3 is superior to light chinese tanks and IFVs(i dont think china would deploy t-99s and t 96s in an intial atack),but if they do make an indigenous MBT that they should go all out not making very many of them just enough to contain a beachead,

 

[Big-E]

They don't need a MBT they need ATGs and ATGMs. They are fighting a totally defensive war.

 

[long live usa]

i still think modifying thier M-60s would be a good idea so a battered chinese beachead could be pushed back

 

[Big-E]

i still think modifying thier M-60s would be a good idea so a battered chinese beachead could be pushed back

Instead of modifying tanks why not make it so the PLA never sets foot on the beach.:

 

[Snayke]

Gotta be prepared for all eventualities.

 

[Waylander]

I also think that they should upgrade their M60s to Abrams.
ATGS and ATGMs is not everything. Infantry (Even mot and mech) is not mobile enough and lacks some of the punch of tank units which is required for a good counterassault.
They are also more usefull in hold-up missions (I hope you guys understand what I want to say ). If infantry faces a strong opponent it is much harder for them to push back, regroup and than attack again than it is for armoured forces.
And if the PLA is able to occupy a harbor and start to bring in heavy armor formations which are starting to attack along the flat terrain and streets on the west coast it could get very ugly for the taiwanese forces without some tank support.

But for sure they don't need thousands of tanks.

 

[long live usa]

And if the PLA is able to occupy a harbor and start to bring in heavy armor formations which are starting to attack along the flat terrain and streets on the west coast it could get very ugly for the taiwanese forces without some tank support.

if PLA takes a harbor and is somehow able to hold it and starts to bring in lots of troops and t-99s t-96s and some of thier PTL02 destroyers and start atacking along the west coast taiwans M-60s are going to be in a very bad spot and it may be over for taiwan,taiwan should make sure this never happens

 

[Snayke]

Hell, Taiwan's parliament has blocked bills for increased military spending anyway. Or well, last I read which was a fair while ago.

But I don't think they necessarily "need" an upgrade. I agree with Big-E about keeping them off the island instead. Naval and air forces should be focused on instead, with land forces to push PLC forces back into the sea if they do infact land. But who knows how fast the PLA can act?

They've never done this sort of operation nor on a large scale. Infact, they've never been involved in a large conflict since Korea. Of course, I don't know the exact scale of the annexing of Tibet, but I don't think it would've been huge.

I don't think Taiwan needs to worry about their armoured forces for now.

 

[Waylander]

That's what I wanted to say.
They need a small and relatively modern tank force which is able to lead a counterassault onto a beachead. For this task their modernized M60s with good artillery/air support should be enough.

 

[Gollevainen]

We have this similar discussion going on in SDf and in both forums i find it rather funny that many seems to lack the big picture of any warfare situation.

Yeas, its true that Taiwan is an iland and yeas it's true that the only possiple warscenario is defending against Chinese assault.
But the thing that mostly wonderes me is that someones seems to think that the war is only about the fact that PLA cannot enter Taiwan shore. The whole amphibious assault is at this point wayout of PLAs capapilityes but if we assume it could do it succesfuly, there needs to be bit more defencive layers than just denying the actual landing. Saying that TAiwan only needs good airdefence or good naval dominance to counter the PLA attack is just, well stubid (sorry to offend someone, but that just my feelings towards this matter)

So PLA is now had their beachhead, what can and should the ROCs troops do? Becouse unlike someone seems to think the possiple fielding of Type 96 and 99s added with the latest chinese tankdestroyers wont just go rolling ROcs troops to the ground push trough everything...this isen't any video game...
To fight defencive warfare you first might think that where do you need tanks for it? Well to withstand the enemy attack is another thing, but taking the benefit of the welldone defencive fighting is another thing. Enemy troops that failed to psuh trough their offensive objectives have reorganizate and they often loose the intiative of the combat. It's right at every armys manuals that the defencive troops (ROC in thins scenario) should use this advantage and make counter attacks exploiting the intial attackers weak moment.
How should ROC troops do it? take their portable ATGMs and charge with them? There the tanks come in their best use in defencive warfare. A good centerized tankgroup (size is irrelevant but obviously, there is some optimal number) used in rahter large unit (not falling to the old mistakes of usinbg tanks as dispered small units to support infantry) in single location can do considerable bunch...

So does ROC need a tankforce? yeas definetly, every country facing conventional warfare needs them. But are tanks the sole element of this kind of warfare? No, artillery and infantry remains always the main performer of any conventional warfare operation. But tanks are as vital to the succes as the other branches. Thats the key issue of understanding the "big picture", to be able to see the possiple scenario from every bracnhs aspect and realize that they all play inportant role in it and if one fails, then the whole objective fails...

 

[Waylander]

Very good post!
A flexible defense is most effective when using armoured forces.
The problem with infantry (Even when they're motorized and using ATGMs) is that they are to slow and to bad protected to do this. If the enemy brakes through with mechanized formations you are really in trouble. While your own mechanized forces are able to fall back while fighting. Normal infantry isn't.
As Gollevainen said not to talk of counterassaults which are needed.

For sure there is terrain which is not very good for tanks but not every terrain on Taiwan is like this, especially not along the main routes.

 

[KGB]

Even if the PLA makes a beachhead, if it can be contained, it can be cut off from the sea and resupply. You wouldn't need to assault it if you can make it wither on the vine. The Germans strategy against D-day involved sending in their panzers to try to crush the beachheads, but they selected that strategy partly because they had no means of challenging the allied navy.

Tanks are expensive and the money would be better served controlling the sea, Trafalgar style.

 

[Waylander]

And what if they are not able to cut supplies completely? You should always have a second plan!
If the PLA is able to supply its forces in Taiwan their mechanized formations are a real pain in the ass, espeicially if you are not able to maneuver with your mechanized forces.
Your infantry with ATGMs in fortified positions may cause some serious damage to the attacker but if their lines are penetrated they are not able to fall back and regroup and maybe close the gap with a counterassault. For such a situation you really need some MBTs with support of mechanized infantry and self propelled artillery.
I don't say you need thousands of MBTs but a small but modern tank forces should be available.

 

[long live usa]

So PLA is now had their beachhead, what can and should the ROCs troops do? Becouse unlike someone seems to think the possiple fielding of Type 96 and 99s added with the latest chinese tankdestroyers wont just go rolling ROcs troops to the ground push trough everything...this isen't any video game...

well luckily this is not SDF and if your opinion is tested you cant just lockdown the thread without giving anyone a chance to say anything, i did not say that they could roll ROCs troops to the ground i said the M-60s would be in a very bad spot(as in outmatched) i definatley did not say"the t-99s and t-96s would push through every thing",i also said that anti tank sytems could be used by the infantry,also i was refering to anothers post that IF china secured a port than it could roll in its latest sytems and if this did happen and the flat west coast was explioted with large numbers of infantry and new sytems and if the port could be held than it may be over for taiwan,so buddy please read what i said and dont just try to get by with posting bs

 

[Gollevainen]

What SDF have to do with any of this? You have something in your thoothole? It's rather lame attempt when lacking anything else to say, isen't it?

Only thing i pointed out was the lack of general picture and general understandment of modern warfare. Many of postres, inlcuding you, seems to lack it or at least wont take it as noticed when writing the stuff you do. All you need to do is to say that Taiwan wont need a tank force prooves this. So why don't you gut the personal marks and focus on your statements and the knowlidge where they are based...

 

[Big-E]

What SDF have to do with any of this? You have something in your thoothole? It's rather lame attempt when lacking anything else to say, isen't it?

We have this similar discussion going on in SDf and in both forums i find it rather funny that many seems to lack the big picture of any warfare situation.

Your the one who brought up SDF.:lol2

Only thing i pointed out was the lack of general picture and general understandment of modern warfare. Many of postres, inlcuding you, seems to lack it or at least wont take it as noticed when writing the stuff you do. All you need to do is to say that Taiwan wont need a tank force prooves this. So why don't you gut the personal marks and focus on your statements and the knowlidge where they are based...

Before you go insulting people who think ROC doesn't need tank upgrades by saying they don't know anything about modern warfare and the general picture why don't you take a look at the bigger picture yourself. The USN is moving 60% of PAC-FLT within 3 days of Taiwan under the new force restructure plan. That means 3 carriers and 2-3 Marine Divisions within a few days cruise. All ROC force have to do is hold out till the US reinforce the defenders. Since PRC is unable to transport many heavy tanks it doesn't make much sense for Taiwan to prepare for something that will never come.

 

[Gollevainen]

Yaeh, if we go f**ing the dot like they say up here, it's true I was the first to mention SDF, but our moderation policy (ordered by Webmaster, we just execute it) hasen't got nothing to do with it...

Before you go insulting people who think ROC doesn't need tank upgrades by saying they don't know anything about modern warfare and the general picture why don't you take a look at the bigger picture yourself. The USN is moving 60% of PAC-FLT within 3 days of Taiwan under the new force restructure plan. That means 3 carriers and 2-3 Marine Divisions within a few days cruise. All ROC force have to do is hold out till the US reinforce the defenders. Since PRC is unable to transport many heavy tanks it doesn't make much sense for Taiwan to prepare for something that will never come.

I don't insult anyone, just saying that they lack some perspective. But your statement of me should do the same isen't done by the example you gave above. Becouse thats exactly what i'm saying. You cannot thrust your whole defence on the fact that America MIGHT come and help you. No government makes decision based on such logic. Yeas it's highly unlikely that they wouldn't but the risk is still too big to be ignored. So you need to build your defence with bit more wider perspective.
PRC is at the moment unable to do massive landings, but in future i'm pretty sure that this situation will improve. And if Taiwan lacks the essential parts of doing some good defence, PRC doesen't even have to enlage it's capapilityes.

You have earned your blue colours so I respect your wievs, but don't be naive...The first thing that I learned in army was that the only thing that is certain is that nothing is certain....so you have to prepear to the worst.

 

[Waylander]

That's totally right.
You cannot totally rely on the US and hope that the worst case never happens. Maybe there is another conflict in the pacific area, maybe on the korean peninsula. Or the US are divided if to help Taiwan, or they think too long about it.
There are many possibilities were Taiwan could get in really big trouble if they have no units which are able to counter heavy chinese mechanized formations.

 

[Big-E]

I'm wondering if anyone thinks this battle will actually ever take place. I think ROC will rejoin mainland China with a self-governance clause before a war. Every year more and more voters feel positive about the mainland. Taiwans number one trading partner and foreign investor is the PRC. The economies are more intertwined than US/Canada. A state of hostilities would destroy both economies. China would lose the Olympics and her oil supply would be cut off. The three Gorges Damn would be a primary target and millions would die for something that can be settled by compromise.

 

[Gollevainen]

It's true, the war is unlikely to happen, but we are speculating on the issue "what if..." Also the fact that war is unlikely to happen isen't anyway privileging anyone to think "that country doesen't need an army" becouse then almoust 90% of worlds countryes wouldn't...