Covid-19 pandemic & Fake News - How you can help

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Having to spend two weeks at home watching Netflix is way cheaper that spending two weeks in the hospital.
Watching Netflix? Over here you're working from home if you're quarantined without serious symptoms and remote working is possible - or you're out of a job for failure to provide the labour you're beholden to deliver under your work contract.
There is no personal benefit to reduced symptoms other than not having to ponder whether 25 breaths per minute on your evening self-test is sufficient to call a doc or whether you should just take the risk and see next morning if you're still waking up.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Social media being used as a force for good! The theme of this thread is also “how you can help” and this group of fans are certainly helping.

K-pop fan club in Indonesia helps organise vaccination drive that results in 10,000 doses being injected — whether or not the people coming are BTS fans or not.

GOOD JOB — socially BTS responsible fans.
 
Last edited:

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Watching Netflix? Over here you're working from home if you're quarantined without serious symptoms and remote working is possible - or you're out of a job for failure to provide the labour you're beholden to deliver under your work contract.
There is no personal benefit to reduced symptoms other than not having to ponder whether 25 breaths per minute on your evening self-test is sufficient to call a doc or whether you should just take the risk and see next morning if you're still waking up.
So the Federal government hasn't put any plan in place for business / worker support to help the economy weather the pandemic?
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
So the Federal government hasn't put any plan in place for business / worker support to help the economy weather the pandemic?
Only companies whose business suffers due to lockdown measures get "free money" in the sense of under some circumstances having potentially part of these specific losses replaced.

Other than that only the normal spectrum of measures that's always in place applies. It's robust enough.

There's some minor tweaks to the normal spectrum. It's somewhat easier to get loans due to government guarantees, and they're temporarily skipping means-testing for self-employed falling into the lowest levels of welfare support.

There are no measures in place in Germany to support the general population handing out free money like in some other countries, which you probably mean.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
New information coming out of Sydney and its not good.

NSW has been unable to get its covid outbreak under control, with daily numbers continually being around 200 and around 40-50 in the community. There are also minor detections in QLD and VIC, although it seems likely that those will come under control at least through lockdowns.

However, delta seems way more deadly, and healthy people in their 20's and 30's have been dying, which seems unusual given the relatively low number of infections.
Watching Netflix? Over here you're working from home if you're quarantined without serious symptoms and remote working is possible - or you're out of a job for failure to provide the labour you're beholden to deliver under your work contract.
There is no personal benefit to reduced symptoms other than not having to ponder whether 25 breaths per minute on your evening self-test is sufficient to call a doc or whether you should just take the risk and see next morning if you're still waking up.
Germany has pretty tough industrial relations despite union strength. There is a lot of personal duty in the German system

Australia (and NZ) it would be expected that most salaried workers would be looked after by their employer, even if they have no work to do. With the government coming in with payments to support that. Many are redeployed to other parts of their business to get some sort of productivity out of them.

Owner business, self employed, and small business owners are definitely struggling. Di

It is envisioned that most lockdowns would be fairly short, although NSW seems to be heading for a Victorian lock down.

Lockdown length seems proportional to strictness.

With Delta essentially being airborne, aerosol, slapping on some low level PPE and low levels of social distancing probably isn't enough to eradicate it.

We should probably be moving to N95 masks, no public transport, 1 person to 10m2+, active filtration, Belgium style air quality systems, non hotel quarantine systems, etc.

It seems Germany has announced the roll out of booster shots, joining Israel and France.

But there are so many global infections, the virus looks like it might be getting away from us, globally.
 

DDG38

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The NSW outbreak was caused by breathtaking levels of state government incompetence and hubris. Pure and simple. They waited far too long to lock down and we're now paying the price for it. The political narrative has changed from "please do the right thing and use common sense" to "lockdown light" to "vaccinations will save us all". It's beyond maddening. My better half is a front line health care worker and the situation in the local hospitals is dire with the NSW health "leadership" stumbling from one crisis to the next with no plan.
Not to mention that both federal and state governments are hanging their hats on the Doherty report which only models out 180 days!
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Have been wondering when something like this was going to happen, it will be interesting to see the outcome in the supreme court, something I am keen to uphold peoples right to choice with the government upholding its citizens basic human rights if they choose not to be vaccinated

Court to hear mandatory vaccine challenge (msn.com)
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The NSW outbreak was caused by breathtaking levels of state government incompetence and hubris. Pure and simple. They waited far too long to lock down and we're now paying the price for it. The political narrative has changed from "please do the right thing and use common sense" to "lockdown light" to "vaccinations will save us all". It's beyond maddening. My better half is a front line health care worker and the situation in the local hospitals is dire with the NSW health "leadership" stumbling from one crisis to the next with no plan.
Not to mention that both federal and state governments are hanging their hats on the Doherty report which only models out 180 days!
I will trade you your state gov't for my state gov't... Where I reside it is not quite as bad as Florida or Texas, not quite...

The state governor has refused to reinstitute mask mandates or any sort of lock down. He insisted on getting things re-opened and apparently desired to do so despite advice being given to him by the state agency responsible for public health. Acting in concert with the state legislation, he signed into law provisions for public school budgets that eliminate the ability of local school districts to enact mask mandates, while also requiring in-person schooling. Challenges to these provisions have been filed in the state court system, and federal officials are looking into whether the state prohibition on mask mandates and other mitigation efforts might constitute civil rights violations if disabled and/or health compromised students are denied the same education opportunities because conditions are especially unsafe for them.

Have been wondering when something like this was going to happen, it will be interesting to see the outcome in the supreme court, something I am keen to uphold peoples right to choice with the government upholding its citizens basic human rights if they choose not to be vaccinated

Court to hear mandatory vaccine challenge (msn.com)
I readily admit to not knowing as much as I would like (or probably should) about both the Australian political and legal enviros, or Australian jurisprudence, but do have to wonder if part of what the filing is about, is something I have seen all too much of in the US.

What I have run into entirely too many times in the US is where people have conflated their sense of entitlement which they have taken to calling "freedom" with actual freedom and basic human rights. A recent example of this would be the "Medical Freedom Rally" which took place about a week ago outside a Prisma Health hospital in Greenville SC. The premise of the protest was that the protestors wanted the hospital system to keep it optional for employees to get a COVID-19 vaccine. Currently the hospital does not mandate that employees be vaccinated vs. COVID-19, however there is a universal mask mandate, with unvaccinated employees required to wear N95 masks as they are more protective than ordinary surgical or procedure masks. The "freedom" protesters also want the hospital system to not require the unvaccinated to wear the more protective masks claiming that doing so can single out or segregate the unvaccinated.

Frankly IMO that idea has so many holes it might as well be a window screen.

Healthcare workers and first responders are routinely required to be on a different vaccination schedule than 'ordinary' people here in the US, getting vaccinated against things like Hep B which is not routinely done for most people. Additionally, where does freedom, real freedom, actually come into play here? People are not forced to have a job or career in healthcare or emergency services. To claim it is an issue of "freedom" to require safety measures be taken by healthcare providers during a pandemic where exposure is not only possible, but likely, when the healthcare workers are not required to stay in healthcare is to really twist what freedom is. Instead, the protesters were actually arguing that those healthcare workers who wanted stay in healthcare but not take advisable precautions to keep themselves, their patients, friends, families and colleagues should only have to do what they wanted to, and not do things they did not want to.

With respect to the case working it's way through NSW, I did note that apparently info from the filing attorney was apparently posted to Telegram. I do not know about Australia, but in the US the Telegram platform is a favourite in certain circles who seem to espouse the notion of "freedom for me, but not for thee..."
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I readily admit to not knowing as much as I would like (or probably should) about both the Australian political and legal enviros, or Australian jurisprudence, but do have to wonder if part of what the filing is about, is something I have seen all too much of in the US.
OH, All these years I thought you were a Novocastrian

What I have run into entirely too many times in the US is where people have conflated their sense of entitlement which they have taken to calling "freedom" with actual freedom and basic human rights. A recent example of this would be the "Medical Freedom Rally" which took place about a week ago outside a Prisma Health hospital in Greenville SC. The premise of the protest was that the protestors wanted the hospital system to keep it optional for employees to get a COVID-19 vaccine. Currently the hospital does not mandate that employees be vaccinated vs. COVID-19, however there is a universal mask mandate, with unvaccinated employees required to wear N95 masks as they are more protective than ordinary surgical or procedure masks. The "freedom" protesters also want the hospital system to not require the unvaccinated to wear the more protective masks claiming that doing so can single out or segregate the unvaccinated.

Frankly IMO that idea has so many holes it might as well be a window screen.

Healthcare workers and first responders are routinely required to be on a different vaccination schedule than 'ordinary' people here in the US, getting vaccinated against things like Hep B which is not routinely done for most people. Additionally, where does freedom, real freedom, actually come into play here? People are not forced to have a job or career in healthcare or emergency services. To claim it is an issue of "freedom" to require safety measures be taken by healthcare providers during a pandemic where exposure is not only possible, but likely, when the healthcare workers are not required to stay in healthcare is to really twist what freedom is. Instead, the protesters were actually arguing that those healthcare workers who wanted stay in healthcare but not take advisable precautions to keep themselves, their patients, friends, families and colleagues should only have to do what they wanted to, and not do things they did not want to.
Not 100% sure of the rights in the US, but here the AusGov policy is that COVID-19 vaccinations are voluntary, any potential restrictions on those who choose not to be vaccinated potentially can run foul on Australians basic human right. which are a right to privacy, freedom of movement, equality and be free from discrimination

What is being proposed by the government (type of vaccine passports) and some business are actually taking those freedoms away. the basic premises of what the business/government is doing is actually coercion to get the vaccine shot for something that is not mandatory, but at the same time they want to deny and discriminate against those who for whatever reason choose not to be vaccinated

If the government want people to have to go about its business without discrimination fear or favour then the government should make the COVID-19 vaccinations mandatory for all Australians unless medical advice provides otherwise, then the sanctity of our right to privacy, freedom of movement, equality and be free from discrimination will not be infringed

The Sex Discrimination Act 1984 (Cth) (SDA), the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (Cth) (DDA) and the Age Discrimination Act 2004 (Cth) (ADA) make it unlawful to discriminate on the grounds of pregnancy, disability and age in many areas of public life, including in the provision of goods, services and facilities.

‘Disability’ is broadly defined in the DDA and includes past, present and future disabilities, as well as imputed disabilities.

A strict rule or condition that requires COVID-19 vaccination as a condition of entry, or as a condition for the delivery or provision of goods, services or facilities, may engage the ‘indirect discrimination’ provisions in the SDA, the DDA and the ADA.
COVID-19 vaccinations and federal discrimination law | Australian Human Rights Commission


With respect to the case working it's way through NSW, I did note that apparently info from the filing attorney was apparently posted to Telegram. I do not know about Australia, but in the US the Telegram platform is a favourite in certain circles who seem to espouse the notion of "freedom for me, but not for thee..."
No idea what you are talking about here I take it as some type of media outlet?

I will wait for the ban hammer to come down again now
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
OH, All these years I thought you were a Novocastrian
Nope, dual-cit but from VIC not NSW

Not 100% sure of the rights in the US, but here the AusGov policy is that COVID-19 vaccinations are voluntary, any potential restrictions on those who choose not to be vaccinated potentially can run foul on Australians basic human right. which are a right to privacy, freedom of movement, equality and be free from discrimination

What is being proposed by the government (type of vaccine passports) and some business are actually taking those freedoms away. the basic premises of what the business/government is doing is actually coercion to get the vaccine shot for something that is not mandatory, but at the same time they want to deny and discriminate against those who for whatever reason choose not to be vaccinated

If the government want people to have to go about its business without discrimination fear or favour then the government should make the COVID-19 vaccinations mandatory for all Australians unless medical advice provides otherwise, then the sanctity of our right to privacy, freedom of movement, equality and be free from discrimination will not be infringed
With the exception of the US armed forces, vaccination is voluntary in the US, but with caveats. Businesses in the US do generally have the right to make vaccinations (not just for COVID-19) a condition of employment. Certain industries also tend to make a practice of requiring employees be vaccinated vs. various diseases, most typically diseases that employees would be more likely to come into contact with as a result of employment. Healthcare and emergency services being among the most common employment sectors where additional vaccinations are required. An example of this would be an EMT, AEMT or Paramedic who is required to be vaccinated for Hepatitis B, because EMS personnel can be exposed to that while providing patient care to certain segments of the US population (IV drug addicts). By requiring employees to be vaccinated, the business can be protected from losses and liability as a result of employees getting sick or even dying as a result of an infection which occurred while working. With COVID-19 specifically, employees who have to work together in close proximity can cause infection chains. I know for a fact that has happened and actually is currently happening at my place of employment, with a number of employees either currently out or just recently back from COVID-19 infections. Given the location and current surge data, these infections are most likely of the Delta variant. I personally do not think my place of employment would make getting vaccinated a condition of employment (not yet, anyway) mostly due to the region of the US, however, if a significant portion of my co-workers were actually vaccinated, there would most likely be much less workplace transmission.

No idea what you are talking about here I take it as some type of media outlet?

I will wait for the ban hammer to come down again now
Telegram is, AFAIK a (anti)social media platform/messaging app that tends to be more popular in the US with one particular side of the political spectrum. Also it seems as though US users of Telegram are less likely to use "main stream" social media like Facebook, Twitter, etc. It also seems to be fairly popular with many of the more fringe or extremist members of that side of the spectrum. I do not use it myself, OTOH I cannot really stand "social" media, and really only use it a little bit to stay in touch with friends and family from all over.

BTW doubt the hammer would come down just yet.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
…here the AusGov policy is that COVID-19 vaccinations are voluntary, any potential restrictions on those who choose not to be vaccinated potentially can run foul on Australians basic human right. which are a right to privacy, freedom of movement, equality and be free from discrimination

What is being proposed by the government (type of vaccine passports) and some business are actually taking those freedoms away. the basic premises of what the business/government is doing is actually coercion to get the vaccine shot for something that is not mandatory, but at the same time they want to deny and discriminate against those who for whatever reason choose not to be vaccinated
1. Thank you for sharing but I note your post lacks understanding on the dynamics of Covid-19 spread and the legal position adopted by you has no merit. You are not only mistaken in the use of facts to support your opinion, you are wrong in law.

2. If you study the origins of human rights law — the first case of it being enforced, was an extension of an idea in property law. The first case is telling on the legal reasoning process — go read it up — but even property rights are not absolute and the law of easements also apply. I find this fake sovereign citizen discussion about vaccines stupidly dangerous during a global public health crisis.

What is being proposed by… some business are actually taking those freedoms away…

If the government want people to have to go about its business without discrimination fear or favour then the government should make the COVID-19 vaccinations mandatory for all Australians unless medical advice provides otherwise, then the sanctity of our right to privacy, freedom of movement, equality and be free from discrimination will not be infringed
3. Don’t believe me? Go ahead a seek real legal advice and pay to sue businesses and the Australian government. In the link you provided, on 28 June 2021, the Australian Government announced that COVID-19 vaccinations would be made mandatory for residential aged care workers. All workers in aged care will be required to receive their first dose of the vaccine by Sep 2021. Some Australian states and territories have also issued public health orders mandating vaccination for certain industries or workers. For example, Queensland has a public health order in place mandating vaccination for health service employees who are likely to encounter and treat people with COVID-19.

4. With regard to the Knowns:
(a) One way to manage a Pandemic like Covid-19 is to curb it at local level, through public health measures that include vaccination. Especially in the context of a vast country like Australia. Masking and social distancing measures needs to be accompanied with some forms of enforcement.​
(b) A Singapore study analysed 218 patients aged 18 and above who were infected with the Delta variant, which first originated in India, and were admitted across 5 hospitals or centres. Of them, 84 had received an mRNA vaccine in Singapore, of whom 71 were fully vaccinated. A total of 130 patients were unvaccinated, while the remaining four received a non-mRNA vaccine overseas. The study also found that initial Delta viral loads were similar for vaccinated and unvaccinated patients, in contrast to existing studies that showed lower viral load for vaccinated patients.​
(c) Efficacy against serious disease is currently being reported as follows in Singapore, in terms of % of cases resulting in serious disease (requires oxygen)​
  • Vaccinated 1.3%
  • Unvaccinated 9%
5. With regard to the Known Unknowns or what we know, we don't know:

Q1: When is the correct time to relax lockdowns (and quarantines) as public health measures to the pandemic?​
Q2: What is role of asymptomatic (%?) and pre-symptomatic individuals in spreading the virus?​

6. We need the case law to guide future generations. Therefore, I really wish that you would put you money on the table and go start a legal suit against Australian businesses who have to comply with WHS laws in the jurisdictions they operate in. The policy space for WHS laws do not exist in a vacuum — insurance is the other part.
(a) IMO, allowing unvaxxed staff to continue to work in an office (instead of work from home) or even a restaurant, without adequate risk mitigation measures may be seen as a violation of WHS laws. This is untested in law, yet.​
(b) The medical bills for the unvaccinated will be so high, medical insurance coverage will no longer be affordable for many small businesses — or coverage with exclusions — ie does not cover Covid-19 hospital admissions. The real cost of vaccination is less than A$100 versus a few hundred thousand for each ICU admission for life-saving treatment due to Covid-19 — it’s a no brainer to focus on prevention rather than on the cure after infection. Go study the basics in insurance law.​
(c) Singapore just a had a serious Covid-19 outbreak affecting over 341 bus drivers (with a 95% to 98% vaccination rate). To more quickly pick up cases of infection, the 11,000 front-line staff in the bus sector (bus drivers and staff manning service counters in bus interchanges), will now have to undergo routine testing at least once a week, instead of every two weeks. This is a country with 100% masking on buses. The likely source of spread was from their open air, socially distanced, and well ventilated lunch/dinner areas — where they were unmasked.​
(d) It is very likely based on documented case studies on the risk of spread of Delta, a realistic and workable testing regime of unvaxxed will need to be weekly, with 100% masking at work and loss of the ability to dine in on work place premises (unless solo seating in well ventilated and disinfected areas is made available).​
 
Last edited:

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I didn't selectively source, link was posted a couple of days ago, in which another mod wanted the debate to stop pending the outcome of the case.

What you are saying is that we should be selective in what laws we should uphold . problem here is you cant make it voluntary then issue health order which contradict those very same rights of the person right to choose and right to privacy or discrimination by coercion

Also the case is being heard in NSW supreme court against the Health Minister Brad Hazzard and Chief Health Officer Dr Kerry Chant. They are arguing that the public health orders requiring “a broad class of workers” be vaccinated is illegal and unconstitutional, as are the extra powers granted to police to enforce public health orders.

See what happens all we can do
Yes, the discussion on the rights of the individual needs to wait for the court outcome. It will be an interesting precedent if the court determines that individual rights over rule the obligation of responsible persons to protect those who come into their premises or work places.

To the gist of the issue; I don't think anybody can deny that COVID19 presents a risk to health and safety and health authorities have identified that the the road out of this situation is vaccination. If someone wishes to dispute these facts they need to have better evidence than the conspiracy theories currently circulating or it will be a very short conversation.

Polio is a case in point of the effectiveness of vaccines (noting this programme was not without concerns by some members of the public). This vaccine was essential in stopping a dreadful disease. Herd immunity was critical as part of that process. Even with the vaccines for polio the efficacy was in the order of 80% to greater than 90% depending on the regime in place.

Polio vaccine introduced in Australia | National Museum of Australia (nma.gov.au)
Microsoft Word - Polio Grad I 12 Feb OPV effect.docx (who.int)
 
Last edited:

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The US polarization of the courts ( thanks to Trump) may well let antivaxxers rule the day. What really pi$$es me off is the A$$ (American shit show) politics spreading to Canada via Fox and social media. As many here know, I am not a favourite of junior but throwing rocks/gravel at junior during a political event is disgusting and doesn’t bode well for the future of democracy.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Yes, the discussion on the rights of the individual needs to wait for the court outcome. It will be an interesting precedent if the court determines that individual rights over rule the obligation of responsible persons to protect those who come into their premises or work places.

To the gist of the issue; I don't think anybody can deny that COVID19 presents a risk to health and safety and health authorities have identified that the the road out of this situation is vaccination. If someone wishes to dispute these facts they had been have better evidence than the conspiracy theories currently circulating or it will be a very short conversation.

Polio is a case in point of the effectiveness of vaccines (noting this programme was not without concerns by some members of the public). This vaccine was essential in stopping a dreadful disease. Herd immunity was critical as part of that process. Even with the vaccines for polio the efficacy was in the order of 80% to greater than 90% depending on the regime in place.

Polio vaccine introduced in Australia | National Museum of Australia (nma.gov.au)
Microsoft Word - Polio Grad I 12 Feb OPV effect.docx (who.int)
Smallpox is the other disease which comes to mind when I think of effective, worldwide vaccination programmes.
 

tonnyc

Well-Known Member

Vietnamese court has sentenced a man for breaking COVID-19 quarantine, spreading the disease to at least 8 people, one whom died from the disease, and caused the quarantine and testing of a small town of 2000.

The death was a big factor. Previous quarantine breakers were given suspended sentences.

My view is that refusing to follow COVID-19 health protocol is reckless endangerment. If a person then died because of it, that's manslaughter.

On a related matter regarding vaccination, my view is that employers are allowed to require workers to follow safety procedures. Not just to protect the worker, but also to protect the other employees and the customers and to protect the business. The case ongoing in Australia is about whether the government can order businesses to require their employees to get vaccinated. But regardless of the eventual decision, businesses that decide on their own to require their employees to get vaccinated do have that power and should exercise it.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Smallpox is the other disease which comes to mind when I think of effective, worldwide vaccination programmes.
I wonder if COVID vaccination rates would be higher amongst antivaxxers if it left the the same amount of scars that smallpox does? Selfies are likely more important than lethality for these fools.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group

Vietnamese court has sentenced a man for breaking COVID-19 quarantine, spreading the disease to at least 8 people, one whom died from the disease, and caused the quarantine and testing of a small town of 2000.

The death was a big factor. Previous quarantine breakers were given suspended sentences.

My view is that refusing to follow COVID-19 health protocol is reckless endangerment. If a person then died because of it, that's manslaughter.

On a related matter regarding vaccination, my view is that employers are allowed to require workers to follow safety procedures. Not just to protect the worker, but also to protect the other employees and the customers and to protect the business. The case ongoing in Australia is about whether the government can order businesses to require their employees to get vaccinated. But regardless of the eventual decision, businesses that decide on their own to require their employees to get vaccinated do have that power and should exercise it.
Absolutely, agree. An employer needs a protected workforce that can continue to produce. Employees that are vaccinated shouldn’t suffer layoffs due to a bunch of fellow employees missing in action due to stupidity.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The US polarization of the courts ( thanks to Trump) may well let antivaxxers rule the day. What really pi$$es me off is the A$$ (American shit show) politics spreading to Canada via Fox and social media. As many here know, I am not a favourite of junior but throwing rocks/gravel at junior during a political event is disgusting and doesn’t bode well for the future of democracy.
Polarisation of the US Supreme Court has been an ongoing affair throughout the 20th and 21st centuries and probably before that.
Presidents of both persuasions have had to deal with an “anti” Court, it took FDR many years to overcome the numbers and pass major pieces of New Deal Legislation, he even tried to increase the bench numbers only to be overridden by his ow party
Trump was many things but he didn’t “invent” stacking the Supreme Court Bench.
 
Top