Sorry Chrom - but we just do not need ERA protection like the Russians must depend on.
I will not question the possibilty to get such combination. As i said, for all we know such round could be compomissed before it leaved drawing board. It is only interesting if someone want to get exact penetration figures. It is absolutely not need if anyone want to develop ERA capable of affecting such round. The basic knowledge about muzzle velocity and round hardness is more than enouth. I pretty much doubt what developers of K-5 tested it with EVERY HEAT charge around the world - and that didnt prevent K-5 affecting such charges exactly same way as others. Only radical change in HEAT construction - tandem warhead - allowed HEAT warheads to penetrate ERA.We indeed replace all our remaining Marders with Pumas. We just don't have that many Panzergrenadier units anymore.
Combat ammo does not get to a unit that easy like one might think. Most tankers never use a real KE (If not in war) but use training KEs the whole time.
Getting a functioning complete set of modern DM53/63s together with a L/55 is IMHO not very easy. Even getting a broken one from live firing tests is not easy. It is not as if our test centers shoot these babies and then let the broken ones rot in the landscape.
Again, you only need 1 example... It is not even question of handling. There will be always bad sheep in the herd.
Sorry, but your MOD think different. Sorry, T-80UD got better PASSIVE protection against KE than counterporary M1A1 and russian designers STILL installed K-5. And about new 140mm gun.. i heard new turret is needed. You abviously heard otherwise.Sorry Chrom - but we just do not need ERA protection like the Russians must depend on.
No - we will not need a new turret to house a 140mm, all modifications will be done inside of the vehicle, could be a dual caliber.
Yes it is important mentioning the fact that the M829A3 has not been distributed to armor units in Iraq, it is simply not needed, also the Germans do a pretty good job of controlling their munitions.
When did MOD ever state this officially inregards to the M1A1 and T-80UD.
State what? What T-80UD have better armor than M1A1? We pretty much know it already. I talked about USA MOD stating the need of TUSK upgrade, including ERA.
Are you telling what these rounds are NEVER fired on gunnery ranges? And moreover, what they are not even in tanks ammo compartment? And moreover, not even in divisions ammo storage?
ERA by itself cant withstand ANY round. Even very old HEAT rounds will penetrate it. ERA merery reduce the PENETRATION of such rounds!!!
Chrom - Four things for you.
Officialy we dont know it. But unofficialy it is known. There are also pretty good estimations.
Same here.While we dont know exact fugures, we can pretty well estimate it from basic facts like L/D ratio and MV, compared to M829A1 and similar rounds.
NII Stali advertise it. M829A1 is pretty old round, and Relict was sure tested at very least with that round. M829A3 dont differ much from M829A3 - a bit longer, a slightly bit different alloy... Cant see how it could radically affect ERA perfomance. As i said, only radical change in HEAT warhead conception made it possible to defeat ERA. \
M829A2 estimation show what it cant penetrate even T-90 composite armor. T-90A armor + "Relict" ERA is a problem even for M829A3.
Thats what I figured Chrom, this is all shear speculation on everyones part. And I am quite sure that NII-Stali is not giving you guys exact figures because I know for fact that some of that information is misleading. All information inregards to performance levels of current KE projectiles is classified, I have seen the numbers that are thrown out there from folks like Paul, Vas and Harkonnen the Ukrainian and they are all pure speculation. I have told you before that I do have respect for all three of these gentleman especially when it comes to Vas due to his knowledge level. And my sources are the the U.S Army and the position that I served. And I am quite sure that can be verified with this sites administration.
One should keep a open mind on what they read on different sites, I sure do.Conjectures and wishful thinking.
Oh now I get it! That's your measure of objectivity? So you run out and buy any product you see advertised on TV?
Yeah let's pretend it was tested. What was it fired from again? It seems you think it was a piece of cake for the Russians to get their hands on one of these, but the reverse, it seems, is completely impossible:
Before we continue, let's just get this straight: Nobody here is claiming that the new generation ERA won't have ANY impact on ANY KE round.
This is CURRENT GEN ERA - Relict. There is already next gen ERA devloped. NII Stali claims 1.6-1.8 times reduction for APFSDS penetration with new ERA. Besides, NII Stali is OFFICIAL, well respected organisation. Now, please show me another OFFICIAL, well respected organisation which claim what M829A3 is NOT affected by Relict, what NII Stali is wrong in they advertisment, what M829A3 can penetrate more than 800mm RHA... Cant find it? So what FACTS you can bring into discussion? YOUR wishfull rumors? At least i have official words from official organization.
It is sufficient to reduce such round penetration by given value. For Relict - 1.2-1.5 times. For next gen ERA - up to 2 times. I fail to see why it is impossible. Disrupting HEAT jet, even tandem one, is ok for you - but affecting APFSDS round is pure fantasy? Get real...
So bascially, you claim what desingers of M829A3 rounds aquired Relict ERA while developing M829A3 round and tested this round with Relict? Else how can they claim what Relict dont affect such round? (BTW, please SHOW me where they claimed it? Never seen that..) At least designers of Relict could test ERA with very close to M829A3 replacements - the MV of round is well known, the lenghts is well known, the material is basically also well known... You dont need Rheinmetal gun to fire a round with designed velocity.
But you claim what official NII Stali advertising is wrong. While dont show any, even vague proof. At least you should have brought a word from M829A3 designers about Relict... but they are silent. So, again, WHY do you think NII Stali is wrong? Any particular reason?
Not to show any disrespect, but basicaly, you have unverificable sources of unknown reliabilty. First, becouse you dont know what sources your MOD had when writing reports. Second, becouse you cant show us the reports itself. So we should believe only your unfounded words.Thats what I figured Chrom, this is all shear speculation on everyones part. And I am quite sure that NII-Stali is not giving you guys exact figures because I know for fact that some of that information is misleading. All information inregards to performance levels of current KE projectiles is classified, I have seen the numbers that are thrown out there from folks like Paul, Vas and Harkonnen the Ukrainian and they are all pure speculation. I have told you before that I do have respect for all three of these gentleman especially when it comes to Vas due to his knowledge level. And my sources are the the U.S Army and the position that I served. And I am quite sure that can be verified with this sites administration.
You underestimate how much work is put in the development of a KE round. It's not simply a nail of metal hammered into the armour with a certain velocity. You need the exact composition of the alloy and the exact composition of the gunpowder used (the maindifference between the DM53 and the way more powerfull DM63 is the powder, not the penetrator! ). And these things are are completely unknown to Russian Engineers.
I'm sure the manufacturer of the M829A3 round would state something similar.
You completely overestimate the importance of such things for ERA development. Why your even need gunpowder? MV is enouth.
Ok, leave at it. But APFSDS rounds design is set in stone - as i said, general shape is well known, lengths is well known, MV is well known, even material is pretty well know. There are not much room to do something different. The round itself is only interesting from exact penetration figures point of view. But it is not very important for relative figures affecting ERA. Some as with HEAT rounds - newer rounds may increase penetration, but they will be affected by ERA to just same degree as much older rounds. Again, only radical change in construction - tandem warhead - allowed to penetrate 1st gen ERA.
Yes, Rheinmetal is respected organisation. Now, please show me WHERE Rheinmetal said something about Relict ERA??? Especially, with any kind of concrete numbers? Like, you know, "Relict ERA do not affect our rounds" or "Relict ERA reduce our round effectivity by only 10%"?
While it is true to some degree, still respected organisations usually do not stright lie. They can say (lie) something in the line "our round will defeat enemy tanks, even most modern ones" , but they almost never lie like "our round will penetrate 800mm RHA" when said round do NOT penetrate 800 mm RHA. Such blatant lie about basic facts is very rare.
DU rounds are very effective against modern armor
To date; not very effective and when you come across differing opinions on this it is basically due to the metallurgy and material make up of the penetrator. For example: Someone from Russia will say ERA is very effective against DU rounds. And they would be correct. It is very effective against Russian DU rounds.
Yes that is correct
Its not the explosion as such, its the plate being forced sideways (the flying plate) that effects the penetrator. Of course you can use a shaped charge to cut the penetrator but then we are talking APS and not ERA. But with regard to flying plates a plate has to exert lateral force upon the penetrator and that is why metallurgy of the DU pentrator is so, so important. Well made penetrators shrug it off. Lower grade penetrators break up.
Who is? and it seems you have.
Oh I am sure Ecky and Waylander will testify that the M1 is just an American knock off of a great German tank.
:Information regarding armor thickness and material properties are listed as classified. Information on armor defeating projectiles are listed as classified. I have not brought any figures or numbers to this discussion. If you feel that I have been mis informed inregards to any testing or information provided by the U.S Army then so be it. There are a few individuals that have knowledge in regards to this that are members at this site location, if they are comfortable giving you the numbers and figures you want to see then they will come forward and provide them.
Did I just read that correctly? Since when has Paul Lakowski ever been a "respected expert"? I was under the impression he was a defense nut who liked tanks, likes to research, writes a good essay, but has never been in development.Chrom said:
Yes. As i said, general APFSDS design is nothing fancy - it is just a dart of given length, width and speed.
some assumtions, yes. But these assumtions will likely make a difference between reducing rod penetration by 35% or 30%, and NOT something radical between 50% and 5%.
ERA technology differs to MUCH, MUCH higher degree. There is generation in ERA development between K-5 and "Relict" . Saying general "ERA" is like saying just "anti-tank round" - without even specifing HEAT of APFSDS, and if HEAT then tandem or not .
As i said, they couldnt. They could build something similar to K-5, but not to "Relict". Becouse "Relict" is radically different from "K-5". Like the difference betwen tandem and usuall warhead.
And now, you want to tell us what West SURERY have a big, compelling REASON to chase after Russians to match they development?
Without a doubt, T-90 right now is world-class tank. A bit worse FCS and thermals than BEST west examples, unprotected ammo compartment - but armor protection and gun is not to blame. In compensation it have same unique properties like much better HEAT protection (bane for modern tanks), very long range reach with ATGM missiles, higher mobility (weight), lower siluette (still very important at long ranges or in plains)
The difference here, NII-Stali claims what they product affect APFSDS round to given degree (1.2-1.5 times) . AFFSDS round manufactures DO NOT CLAIM what NII-Stali Relict ERA do not affect they rounds. They, at maximum, say something in the line "our APFSDS will penetrate any ERA". Of course they will penetrate. 70 years old round will penetrate ERA... The question is however how much reduced will be APFSDS ability to deal with passive armor...
Just because they don't state it on their website? Come on, that doesn't mean that they don't have such numbers at all, but I'm pretty sure if you were a member of a MOD of some nation interested in these rounds, they would give you more exact numbers. [conspiracy-mode]Maybe they even hold back such numbers to not alarm Russian engineers and let them imagine to be safe with their Relic![/conspiracy-mode] No, just kidding.
That's just your guessing.