Chinese Military 2005

[gf0012-aust]

the ming and romeo are a joke. They are designed by Nazis literally. their design orginate from German designs obtained by the russian after the second world war. Should we compare point air defences of that era with our current air defence? no.. Should we compare 60 year old sub designs with current subs? no

The fundamental issue here is that all modern submarines - including nukes can trace back some if not a lot of their design principles to the German Type XX1's. A Ming used as part of a hunter killer team (with a Kilo) could cause a lot of grief.

The Seawolf is rumored to be as quiet as Kilos though but that is the Seawolf.

Sorry, that is just rubbish. The Seawolf/Virginia is an order of magnitude quieter than a Kilo.

Even in Kilos there is a ranking.

Russian pump jet
Russian non export
Chinese export (7 and 6 blade designs)
Indian (for some silly reason they are still using Kilos with 5 blades - in fact their most recent Kilo is a 5 blader)

 

[zoolander]

How would you rank a Yuan class to the Kilo EM the chinese recently got.

I heard the Yuan is better due to AIP but then again its just speculation and rumors.

Please post some info on the Yuan

 

[crobato]

My speciality is russian submarines china being a secondary,

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/type094.asp

it looks more like a delta class to me.

once i get back tonight il fill in a bit more

You have a specialty on Russian and Chinese subs? I know who are the real experts around from different forums. Looking at your statements, you are not one of them.

 

[tphuang]

the fact that Kapitain uses artist impression as the basis for his argument makes me wonder his credibility. As far as I know, the details on 093 and 094 are as hidden as any Chinese weapon system. Yeah, I admit that there is probably a lot more revealed to the Western intelligence on 093/094 than average joes like myself know. But I would not simply make judgements like 093 is Victor III and 094 is Delta.

As for Yuan, it looks like from the Chinese reports that they are still just running tests on it. The first Song had a lot of problems. I'm sure PLAN will be careful and run enough tests to make sure that it doesn't become a repeat of that. Once it's certified, I would expect the Song production to shift to Yuan production.

 

[zoolander]

The Yuan is rumored have AIP. Tell you guys the truth I dont really know. I read conflicting reports on this but thats what happens when there is limited info. people speculate.

One thing i know, this might be old news though and most likely it is fixed. The Yuan leaked from the torpedo tudes at depths of 100m+. This report might be a couple years old though.

Chinese nuclear technology is 1970s cold war standarts. That the best way to put it. They strived in nuclear technology but its still 1970s tech.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Chinese nuclear technology is 1970s cold war standarts. That the best way to put it. They strived in nuclear technology but its still 1970s tech.

The cold war only finished 17 years ago - thats half the normal life of a major capital ship.

if the design is efficient, it doesn't matter how old it is.

you're also forgetting that the Yuan and the Song are using French sonar and support systems.

the chinese are building development runs. its is the way that they do continuous improvement. thats why you see pairs of ships released rather than flights.

they have the cash to be able to do it when convention would dictate to use more traditional development cycles.

ie, they're not production runs as would normally happen but in real terms are development runs. thats a very expensive but still a legitimate way of developing and refining a platform.

 

[tphuang]

The cold war only finished 17 years ago - thats half the normal life of a major capital ship.

if the design is efficient, it doesn't matter how old it is.

you're also forgetting that the Yuan and the Song are using French sonar and support systems.

the chinese are building development runs. its is the way that they do continuous improvement. thats why you see pairs of ships released rather than flights.

they have the cash to be able to do it when convention would dictate to use more traditional development cycles.

just wondering, how are the French sonar and support system getting through the embargo?

 

[gf0012-aust]

just wondering, how are the French sonar and support system getting through the embargo?

From what I've read they're COTS which have been adapted.

The irony is that as much as the EU professes to be bound by an embargo, there is substantial stuff getting through on the basis of being civilian technology.

Helicopters is a good example. Riot Control gear is another.

 

[KAPITAIN]

I personaly would have said the seawolf is quieter, however if you want a quieter submarine the type214 from germany proves well nye on impossible to find.

 

[KAPITAIN]

"You have a specialty on Russian and Chinese subs? I know who are the real experts around from different forums. Looking at your statements, you are not one of them."

Not in the way you see them my research aid's no one but myself and a few other people, i never claimed to be a professional i never said i was expert i just specialise in the russian submarines side of things, like my friend javier who specialises in russian surface ship's.

Now id think before you accuse.

 

[zoolander]

There techniquelly is no embargo. The chinese may not get whole complete systems for many years to come. But parts and etc are a exception. Another thing is that many of those parts are joint venturedly produced in china.

 

[KGB]

Sorry, that is just rubbish. The Seawolf/Virginia is an order of magnitude quieter than a Kilo.

Hi let me clarify please, is this comparison made with the Kilo's diesels on, off, or with an average of the diesel's on and off?

just curious.

I'd imagine the russians wouldn't be selling their quietest kilos, they might have to track them someday.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Hi let me clarify please, is this comparison made with the Kilo's diesels on, off, or with an average of the diesel's on and off?

just curious.

I'd imagine the russians wouldn't be selling their quietest kilos, they might have to track them someday.

sig measurement is done across a range of real time operands.

• in transit
• run quiet
• flank speed

 

[KAPITAIN]

During flank runnings the noise is quite high, during transit not so high, and during silent running well speaks for itself.

Kilo for a 20 year old design is not too bad a submarine, it gives 3rd world countrys a submarine fleet cheaper than what the western world can offer, think i read once a kilo cost's half the price of a german type 212.

 

[zoolander]

it all depends on wat u want on ur kilo. A kilo is like a house. When u buy u can put many options on it. This concept applies to the kilo. It already good but it can be made better just depend on how much you want to spend. The new Kilo EMs are not that cheap.

 

[uniyoung]

hi, this is my first time coming here.

I am really interested to find that this topic, about the Chinese millitary issue, becomes one of hottest in this forum. May I ask why? I hope u guys are not concerning it as a growing threaten. after all, compare to the super nations, China has such limited millitary budget.

I know there was a confliction between China and India, in which both two sides all declaimed their justice, even victoriousness. Put this event away and view historically, China is the least aggressive nation, even in its most brilliant period-tang dynasty. So I think the slightly growing millitary budget is for self-defence and taiwan strait affair, and they are all Chinese inside affairs.

some of u may never know how much important taiwan island is to the mainland, and I love peace, so I really wish taiwan would never declaim its independence--Considering the U.S. and Japan's interference, the claim of independece would probably trigger a worldwide disaster.

Last but most important. In Asia, China, Russia and India should become friends rather than enemy, and fortunately, we are watching our governments stepping along this way

 

[DarthAmerica]

hi, this is my first time coming here.

I am really interested to find that this topic, about the Chinese millitary issue, becomes one of hottest in this forum. May I ask why? I hope u guys are not concerning it as a growing threaten. after all, compare to the super nations, China has such limited millitary budget.

Welcome. I think that China isnt a direct threat as much as it is a POTENTIAL THREAT. As your significance on a regional and global level increase you will inevitably find yourself at odds with others. Having a powerful military, which you do, allows for options that would otherwise be unavailable to you. This makes people nervous when considering the future.

Misinterpretation of your intentions and alarmist press reports centered around platforms fuel the hysteria. Also the great differences in moral values and forms of governments makes it easier to look at you as "them". Also having someone to call "the enemy" facilitates the military-industrial complex need to generate income and gives the DoD purpose. Not that it isnt justifiable. Its just that the rhetoric and bad analysis can blow things out of proportion. Particularly for the more "excitable" among us.


Welcome...

 

[ThunderBolt]

Confused.

Does the Chinese military use the FAMAS cause their guns look very much like it, but the only thing is its called Type ... something.

 

[ThunderBolt]

Welcome. I think that China isnt a direct threat as much as it is a POTENTIAL THREAT. As your significance on a regional and global level increase you will inevitably find yourself at odds with others. Having a powerful military, which you do, allows for options that would otherwise be unavailable to you. This makes people nervous when considering the future.

Misinterpretation of your intentions and alarmist press reports centered around platforms fuel the hysteria. Also the great differences in moral values and forms of governments makes it easier to look at you as "them". Also having someone to call "the enemy" facilitates the military-industrial complex need to generate income and gives the DoD purpose. Not that it isnt justifiable. Its just that the rhetoric and bad analysis can blow things out of proportion. Particularly for the more "excitable" among us.


Welcome...

I agree with your post 100%. China is defiantly not a "direct threat", although it could be classified as a potential threat. Same thing would have gone for India, since it is a newly industrializing country just like China, if it was not an ally of the west. I think that there is a possibility of China being the next super power; I really don't know in how much time, that would be possible, but I can't see it for at least another 20 years.