Chinese Military 2005

[zoolander]

I believe china's defence spending are way off. They are said to be not including Research and Development(R&D) and certain purchases from russia.


In reality china defence is around 60-75 billion dollars.

There is no arms race. At least not between china and india. China only have a few nuclear missiles facing india, majority are facing the pacific where the real action is going on.

 

[chinawhite]

Do we have an arms race heating up? Implications?

Its directed towards taiwan after chen abolished the unification council. Whats the word you use when something just happens but wasn't planned?.

 

[tphuang]

in the immediate future, China will at least try to appease India on the surface. It's far more concerned with Taiwan, the North Korean situation, the Japanese situation, the disputes over the Spratleys and of course America.

 

[KAPITAIN]

China has not got a very modern navy at all its submarines have an average age of 20 years, the ming class were built almost 40 years ago and do not often see active deployment.

 

[zoolander]

That not exactly true. The chinese operate a fairly large number of new modern upgrade kilo class subs, some older kilo class subs, starting to mass produce "Yuan" class class subs which is suppose to as good if not better than improved Kilo. A couple of these examples are out already. China also operate a large number of "Song" class subs. The "Ming" class subs are just a upgraded and modernized Romeo class. They are bound to retire soon and they are just for literal waters; they are just costal defense. I think they still have some Romeos on reserves. Most of China's subs are decently new.

China's nuclear subs have made a big leap. They introduced a new ssbn and ssn. the type 93 and 94. They also operate the Han nuclear submarine as well as the ssbn Xia class sub. They are the few countrys that can make and operate ssbn and ssn.


The Yuan, Kilo EM, SongA(improved), Type 93 and 94 are less than 10 years old and many subs are brand new. By modern navy standarts they are still very modern or at least above average

 

[gf0012-aust]

That not exactly true.

The SSBN is basically inop - its never fired a test missile even.
The Romeos are basically inop - and they're not used even in numbers for littorals work.

Tha PLAN was considering using them as pairs with Kilos as hunter killers, but AFAIK that idea has been scuttled as well.

I do have actual numbers somewhere, I'll see if I can post them.

 

[zoolander]

y do the chinese use cold lauch revolver laucher?. It takes so much more space than a grid hot lauch method.

Is there a way to lauch the bear anti air missile vertically.

When is the type 54a comin out

 

[gf0012-aust]

y do the chinese use cold lauch revolver laucher?. It takes so much more space than a grid hot lauch method.

cold launch is cheaper to build in
cold launch is technologically simpler to achieve

there is no such thing as a "grid" hot launch. There is "hot launch" and then those launches can be rippled.

Is there a way to lauch the bear anti air missile vertically.

yes

 

[zoolander]

by grid i mean the shape. It looks like a grid. a squarish shape with little box hatches for missiles

So do you think china is finally going into hot lauch format for some some missiles. The bear should be hotlauched. You can carry more and reduce radar signatures. Are any chinese anti ship missile capable of verticle lauch. did china make a ship lauched LACM yet

 

[KAPITAIN]

Well the type's 093 and 094 still have yet to be built and go to sea, the Rubin design beureau in moscow is aiding the chinease in developing both types and so far only models have been built.

The type 094 is based on the soviet Yankee class SSBN of the 1960's / 70's and the type 093 SSN is based on the soviet Victor III SSN.

The hans were built back in the 70's and early 80's and the xia not long after with reports the second one sank in the yellow sea in 1982, also its worth noting the xia has not been to sea since 1997 due to technical problems.

The kilo's themselves how ever improved are still at heart over 20 years old and have changed little.

The song class have been around for a little bit newer also but also they are louder apparently, and the Yuan is just a take off from the kilo there isnt much diffrence only the diving planes have been moved to the sail, take them off and your litteraly back to the kilo.

 

[crobato]

1. Excuse me but you don't know what the Type 093 and 094 is based on.

2. The Xia is still active even as of today. However, she has been converted to killer sub duties instead. She has been modified with anecholic tiles.

3. The Kilos happens to show quite a deal of improvement, such as skewed propellers, anecholic tiles, a digital command center, and the ability to launch Klub cruise and antiship missiles underwater.

4. Most of the Songs are only around since the 2000's. Actually all but one is is launched starting from 2001,

5. Lol, the Yuan show quite a bit of difference over the Kilo. The only thing that ever looked similar on them is the bow. That, and the skewed propeller, are the only things common about the two.

6. The Ming class is still very active today. I guess spying on Japanese naval exercises must not be considered active.

I wish people would stop talking about things they don't know about.

 

[KAPITAIN]

The rubin design station annoced that they are working with china to build a platform based on the soviet Yankee class submarine, china also have announced the same thing. the model ive seen pictures of represent this.

Also i know of no kilos that do not have skew bladed propellors both type 636 and 877 have 6 and 7 skew bladed propellor as standard fit, all bar alrosa which has a water jet.

As for the Xia there have been numerous reports of it not going to sea since 1997 and recent satalite pictures confirm this roughly.

As for the ming they are ancient technology infact there design dates back to the 1950's when the romeo was announced (production didnt start till later)


" wish people would stop talking about things they don't know about." working in conjunction with spanish people and also russian british and american all of us can say that china and her submarines are far behind the americans and even the russian's.

Untill recently the Han trailed a four bladed propellor making her incredibly noisey, the xia also.

The song class submarines are one of the new members to the fleet designed to replace the ageing Ming's and the type 093 which reflects the victor III very closely.

I have seen an artist impression ok not firm proof but it looks very very similar to the victor III not to mention the chinease are very intrested in that type of design only russia will not allow them to have plans of the Akula.

Type 093 and 094 have yet to be built both are based on russian designs i know that, and so yes i do know what im talking about.

The Yuan class still uses the palmeda sonar thats some what below what nieghbors japan and america are using, even the newest russian ones no longer use palmeda waterfall displays are used in the new submarines and even in the two new akula 2's.

The ming class themselves are very very loud twin screw and can be detected no problem although you might have thirty of them id stringly doubt all will come back alive if you sent them against a oyashio class.

Id like to know what you mean about the bow of the Yuan simply because it is a converted Kilo with pretty much the same specifications and gubbings inside.

 

[crobato]

1. Show me the announcement from the Rubin design studio please.

2. show me the announcement from China as well.

3. As for the Xia show me the reports it's not been at sea since 1997 because there are pictures of it participating in exercises in this decade in a new black trim with anecholic coating.

4. Lol, an artist impression? The artist must have drawn that because he was told that the sub was supposed to be based on the Victor III. What comes around, circles around.

5. Type 093 not yet built? Yet US reports cites at least two subs are on trials since July of 2003.

6. Yuan class use Palmeda sonar? How do you know?

7. The Yuan a converted Kilo? We have seen pictures of the Yuan in dry dock and in the water. There was also artist and computer graphics depictions of the Yuan. None of them looks like a Kilo. To start with, the Yuan has a prominent hump back. The tail fins are set in a tee, with a vertical fin exposed on top at times, while the Kilo keeps all its tail fins below water. The drain holes between the two share nothing in common. The Yuan, also appears to be a larger sub. Yes, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

8. 877 does not use a skewed propeller, it uses a 6 bladed prop. The 636 uses a 7 bladed skewed prop.

9. Explain to the Japanese Navy how a Ming managed to shadow their exercises for days without detection. The Ming finally decided to surface and thumb its nose as it sailed away.

 

[KAPITAIN]

My speciality is russian submarines china being a secondary,

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/type094.asp

it looks more like a delta class to me.

once i get back tonight il fill in a bit more

 

[KAPITAIN]

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/type093.asp

This link is useful also

 

[zoolander]

u do realize the akula class is a nuclear attack sub while the yuan and kilo are diesel rite?

The Yuan is rumored to have AIP

chinese nuclear disign is horrible but a leap from the han class to type 94 is still incredible. the 94 is similar to Victor III level which is okay but still bad compared to los angelas and way worse than the new seawolf

 

[KAPITAIN]

Yes im well aware the Akula is a SSN and yuan a SSK

 

[zoolander]

they are designed for different missions and a ssn is alot loader about 2-3 time more louder than a ssk

 

[KAPITAIN]

Both are designed to be attack submarines one for shallow coastal waters one for open sea.

Akula's job is to forwardly deploy into deep water and wait for landing forces pop up attack and run away.

The Kilo is just there to take whats left over.

As to noise there is a diffrence between some SSK and SSN but submarines like the Ming Romeo and what not are louder than a contempary SSN.

 

[zoolander]

the ming and romeo are a joke. They are designed by Nazis literally. their design orginate from German designs obtained by the russian after the second world war. Should we compare point air defences of that era with our current air defence? no.. Should we compare 60 year old sub designs with current subs? no

The Seawolf is rumored to be as quiet as Kilos though but that is the Seawolf.