it's true that the Chinese platforms are not formidable compared to American/Western platforms. However, that doesn't mean 094 cannot be a deterrent. If anything, China never shows the best it has to offer. It tries to hide it as much as possible. But then again, you have the neocons overestimating these platforms' capabilities.Francois said:
Chinese Military 2005
- Thread starter chinawhite
- Start date
I have yet to see a sub or a ship based on a Russian design. They may have used some Russian components or components inspired from Russian design yes, but hardly Russian. The Song? The 051B? The 052B? The 052C?
The only knowledge I have from 093 and 094 actually comes from the US, since China even hides these from its own people. If they don't exist, why is the US so concerned about them and mentions them in its white papers?
The only knowledge I have from 093 and 094 actually comes from the US, since China even hides these from its own people. If they don't exist, why is the US so concerned about them and mentions them in its white papers?
On the J-10s and J-11s, I keep a look out on the PLAAF orbat based on news, reports, even rumors and definitely with photos. I cannot agree there are more J-10 regiments out there besides those in the 44th Division. The engine deliveries themselves don't support any number higher than what I have given.
A 60 to 70 plane number would at best support around 3 regiments, and I have listed them.
The 60 plane J-11 is also a wash. I am quite sure---based on the photographic evidence---that there are 4 pure J-11 regimental formations out there, with another three Su-27/J-11 mixed regimental formation. And one of the last three may be transitioning to all J-11s. All that I have listed them for you. That clearly supports numbers over a 100 for this plane at least, and even 120 plus is not impossible to believe.
A 60 to 70 plane number would at best support around 3 regiments, and I have listed them.
The 60 plane J-11 is also a wash. I am quite sure---based on the photographic evidence---that there are 4 pure J-11 regimental formations out there, with another three Su-27/J-11 mixed regimental formation. And one of the last three may be transitioning to all J-11s. All that I have listed them for you. That clearly supports numbers over a 100 for this plane at least, and even 120 plus is not impossible to believe.
That is my concern, actually.crobato said:
The US military is fighting the fund reduction to be voted by the congress.
So they embellish the reports and make them treats.
The definition of a dissuasion (and at the end, in time of peace, every arm is a dissuasion tool) is to show something to send a message, clearly, out of equivoque.
If it exists, you show it firing and going to sea and all. Even the very closed USSR did show its platforms to that purpose.
Now, I remember some countries ib history did arm or re-arm in secretie, but we know today the reason (German after WWI er ex.).
A Chinese philosophical idea or saying: Do not disturb the
tall & wild grasses where snakes hides. Because, by doing so, it would
unecessarilly alarm the creatures (or snakes) that live in it.
My philosophy: WHEN PEOPLE DON'T TAKE YOU SERIOUS ENOUGH,
you have to show them "some teeths", ANY TEETH, regardless if these teeths are
mere dentures or if it's something designed intentionally to rip and tear into the flesh. By doing so,
it helps to extend the message that you are no easy pushover.
That idea, if I may say so, is a very wrong, and honestly - "a very
Jurassic-interpretation" of how things are, or how things shouldn't be viewed in the world.
The idea alone needs to be updated and brought to the 21st century.
I mean how far can we take such associations?
If such logic holds true (that Chinese are based on
Russian or even if based on other platforms) and that if such ideas
are the rules of thumb of the world, then: where does Russian technology,
or American ones for that matter, have its origins?
Where does one draw the line???
For argument sakes: The Wilber of China, minus the Brother:
http://www.kepu.com.cn/gb/beyond/aviation/china/chi301.html
I hope his idea is not based on Russian/American platforms.
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there was a launch of JL-2 this past summer that was reported by some people.KGB said:
As for J-10, while it's true there haven't been photographic evidence of newer J-10 regiments, it doesn't mean there isn't. It normally takes a while for people to notice J-10 has arrived at a new regiment. With the pace that they are producing J-10s these days, it would not surprise me if the pictures of a new regiment just hasn't come out yet.
What the USN did report and leaked to the press (Bill Gertz) was that China had a couple of Type 093s in trials since '03. A post in the CDF mentioned that the 094 is still inside a drydock as of October of '05 and was supposed to leave it by December of '05.Francois said:
Currently 094 is still in prototype/trials stage so it does not have a deterrance function. It should be noted that the Xia class currently does not carry any SLBMs and is more or less used like an attack submarine in exercises. With the PLAN on a tight budget, the strategic deterrance function is the first to go versus other more important priorities. Having the SLBMs actually puts the PLAN in competition with the PLA's 2nd Artillery branch. Perhaps I don't think the CMC trusts the PLAN enough to leave a sub with nuclear warheads out there, whereas the 2nd Artillery is tightly politically controlled and answers directly only to the top Party leadership, bypassing all other PLA chain of command. I believe that 094 is meant as a hands on technology exploration only, probably only one will be ever built, then followed by another improved class of SSBN. Nuke subs have not much of an advantage in a basically littoral scenario like Taiwan or even a conflict over oil fields with Japan in the East China seas.
Just because things are absent does not mean they're there too. Currently the engine supply does not suggest there would be more regiments out there until the late 2006. I don't want to count a regiment in conversion; its a regiment only when its commissioned and placed into service as such.tphuang said:
I don't think the non TVC J-10 is the definitive production J-10 even though it was in serial production. I see it more like the T-98, only in production for a short while compared to the ERA equipped T-99, which the PLA seems to be getting a lot of, compared to the T-98, which probably only equipped a few brigades. I think the PLAAF will focus on the TVC equipped J-10.
How many of these boats do the Chinese really have?
Apparently, according to another Chinese site, one that I would term as authentic
and as a reliable source of reporting, and the story was from a few years back (middle of GW's
first term), there supposedly are already as many as 3 type 093s (1 in service, 1 on sea trial, and another almost
ready for launch and the time frame given was in referencde to 1999 and 2000).
This source also indicated that there are also already as many as two 094s
(one on sea trial, the other readying for launch). The story also indicated that these
newer subs are gas cooled (beats me if it makes any difference) thus supposedly more efficient.
It also gave details of the speed, depth, and claims that it is super qiete.
Also a couple of years back, while everyone was laughing about
what was then described and claimed as a "Yuan class" along with what's
supposedly a model of that boat (also from above referred to site), people in the Keyboard
as well as elsewhere were passing it off as a mere joke back then.
Looking at the Yuan now, I do get a laugh from all of those rejections.
In fact, I'm of the opinion that people back then thought that even
the 093s and 094s was but a bunch of Chinese hot air and that it'll never happen. It takes a
Bill (Gertz that is) to knock some sense into some people I suppose.
Edisonone, I have no idea what you are saying and talking about.
You sond very weird to me.
History was not made by words or old sayings, but by facts.
I am not under-estimating the chinese assets, just stating the obvious.
I am not assuming anything either.
China is building its military is a fact. Its gov refuses to comment it, or when pointed, says it is false.
Now when I see a pic of a pier with a number of subs, I just wonder if its a PS. All is rumor here on the Net. And Gertz is not someone I value much either.
You sond very weird to me.
History was not made by words or old sayings, but by facts.
I am not under-estimating the chinese assets, just stating the obvious.
I am not assuming anything either.
China is building its military is a fact. Its gov refuses to comment it, or when pointed, says it is false.
Now when I see a pic of a pier with a number of subs, I just wonder if its a PS. All is rumor here on the Net. And Gertz is not someone I value much either.
edisonone said:How many of these boats do the Chinese really have?
Apparently, according to another Chinese site, one that I would term as authentic
and as a reliable source of reporting, and the story was from a few years back (middle of GW's
first term), there supposedly are already as many as 3 type 093s (1 in service, 1 on sea trial, and another almost
ready for launch and the time frame given was in referencde to 1999 and 2000).
This source also indicated that there are also already as many as two 094s
(one on sea trial, the other readying for launch). The story also indicated that these
newer subs are gas cooled (beats me if it makes any difference) thus supposedly more efficient.
It also gave details of the speed, depth, and claims that it is super qiete.
Also a couple of years back, while everyone was laughing about
what was then described and claimed as a "Yuan class" along with what's
supposedly a model of that boat (also from above referred to site), people in the Keyboard
as well as elsewhere were passing it off as a mere joke back then.
Looking at the Yuan now, I do get a laugh from all of those rejections.
In fact, I'm of the opinion that people back then thought that even
the 093s and 094s was but a bunch of Chinese hot air and that it'll never happen. It takes a
Bill (Gertz that is) to knock some sense into some people I suppose.
According to what i read allegedly from the USN, there are two 093s on trials, the first one in the water since 2003. The 094 appears was in dry dock in late 2005 and was supposed to start sea trials.
Given that the seas around Taiwan are basically littoral, I don't give much weight on the nuclear subs as being cost efficient and tactically as useful as SSKs. And did I mention these nuke subs are going to be exopensive for what they're worth? The brunt and teeth of the Chinese underwater navy will be on the SSKs. I will probably be more excited if China acquires an Amur or two, this kind of sub fits China's requirements and budget, or see further developments on the Yuan.
As for photoshop, while we have seen our share of forgeries, we have also seen people with their share of pie in their face alleging pics as forgeries, but turns out to be true. One can name the Yuan class, the sightings of the various AWACS and ELINT aircraft, even the J-10, the 052B, and the 052C themselves. When I first saw the radar array mount on the unfinished superstructure of the 052C when they were first leaked to the internet, I kind of have to shake my eyes and subject the pictures to enhancers before I was sure these were the real thing.
Now on other things, these are comments on the J-8II inventory.
I believe these planes number close to or probably over 400, maybe even 500. The numbers have grown over the years, though gradually. Each regiment may have a high number of planes, at least over 30 but not more than 40.
Some of the divisions that have J-8s:
1st Division (got the J-8F; same division has J-11s)
2nd Division (same division has J-11s)
9th Division
12th Division
18th Division (may have been transferred; got Su-30MKKs in this div)
21st Division (got J-8H; probably two regs)
24th Division (three regiments, two with the original J-8A, upgraded to J-8E)
26th Division (probably all three regiments, J-8D and newer variants)
29th Division (one reg of J-8H, this division also has Su-30MKKs)
9th Divison PLANAF (J-8D, same division has JH-7A)
One Blue Flag Aggressor Regiment in the FTTC.
1st Division located in the Shenyang region, is kind of an elite unit, but also a showcase of Shenyang Aircraft Corporation's efforts, who makes both the J-11s and J-8IIs. No surprise this unit was the first to convert to J-11s and the first to get the J-8F.
J-8A is the original round inlet nose version of the J-8, J-8E is the upgraded version with the J-7D's radar and is capable of using all aspect PL-8s.
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Whether or not I am a weirdo matters not. And, the reason for your
not undertanding is likely because you do not want to believe in the idea that the Chinese
are indeed as capable. Don't you think there are some truth to that?
By this, do you mean to say that the Chinese should turn themselves
into an open book when everyone else in the world makes it a manditory thing that military
secrets be maintained at all cost? Now, where's the logic to that?
.
All you need to do is to convince people that the source you mentioned is credible. Skepticisim isn't predjudice.edisonone said:Apparently, according to another Chinese site, one that I would term as authentic and as a reliable source of reporting, and the story was from a few years back (middle of GW's first term), there supposedly are already as many as 3 type 093s (1 in service, 1 on sea trial, and another almost ready for launch and the time frame given was in referencde to 1999 and 2000).
Bang! Wrong!edisonone said:
Read your previous post and tell ma what it was suppose to mean.
You just throw words without coerrancy. Not a good way for ppl to understand what you want to say.
When I say I don't understand you, it is not your position, but what is going out of your mouth has no meaning to my ears (or eyes).
The rest is anyway irrevelant, as usual.
Thanks, Francois for your frankness.Francois said:
If under the same circumstance, and if I'm not sure what a poster
is driving at, and such incidences do happen in the www, I try to decipher it. I definitely wouldn't
be as mean as to criticise someone for their language proficiencies.
Just curious however: Do you always drift from the subject at hand
and dwell into a totally different subject matter? A different dimention in time and
space even, when you intermingle with people in the net? I mean I thought this site is about military
matters. Since when did it turn into a language proficiency entity?
I find it lame that people in the net will resort to using
language as leverage for their arguments. Such tactic IMHO gives out
that hidden and that little known person that's within us.
Not refering to you of
course so don't misunderstand me. I'm talking
about people in general.
Hey! I'd ignore the poster, or the subject matter,
if he/she does not appeals to me. I definitely wouldn't criticise anyone
no matter how bad his/her language proficiency.
BTW, don't bother replying. Because, I don't think we speak the same language.
nfloorl:.
Can you prove beyond a doubt if a historical event indeedKGB said:
happened to mankind back in the sixties or is there some truth to it that Richard Nixon directed
that play in a deserted warehouse somewhere in England?
Until someone else can authenticate that story,
we can only assume that the event is real. To branded
it as a pure fake prematurely is to kid ourselves.
My opinion only of course.
EOM
.
Hey there, KGB,KGB said:
Hesitancy:
Hesitant? No it doesn't. Next time, GB, when a high profiled figure,
a President or a Presidential candiate or something gets on the TV screen, i.e., in a televised
debate or in an interview with Larry King or something, watch how he/she handles him/her self and watch
how he/she maneuvers him/her self "gracefully" around questionings.
"Facts: Smart people, they don't answer questions directly. They rephrase their
answers by presenting their opponent(s) with either another question, or they lead their opponents
into something which may take the form of an example which relates to or which lends itself to the question
being asked. It's the civilized way of doing it and it's the diplomatic way doing it."
Sorry friend. Answering questions is not my style. Presenting it is...
Know something my friend? I think (my personal belief only of course) thatKGB said:
it would do us all here plenty of good if each of us would maybe try and be more civil and
if we try to practice the fine arts of speech that successfull people's the world over do. Speeches that help
them excell in life and -- speeches which keep them away from harm's way.
Hey! It definitely beats going around the www with a baseball bat
hidden behind our back at the ready to swing at anyone and everyone who
might not be in agreement with us. It would also make this world of ours into a much
more livable and a much more tolerable place to live for one and all.
Don't you agree, GB? I mean why be confrontational?
China increases defence budget by 14%
After india recently increased its defence budget by 7% to $20 Billion, China announced today an increase in its defence budget by 14.7% to US$35.3 Billion.
Do we have an arms race heating up? Implications?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4773358.stm
After india recently increased its defence budget by 7% to $20 Billion, China announced today an increase in its defence budget by 14.7% to US$35.3 Billion.
Do we have an arms race heating up? Implications?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4773358.stm