Chinese Air Force (PLA-AF) News and Discussion

[ragingsheep]

Perhaps the claim range is for version with WS-20.

If that so, it's still big claim as that claim put Y-20 on similar range with C-17.

I suspect this might be the case. The claimed ranges might be similar but the C-17 can carry almost 20tonnes more than the upgraded Y-20s.

Being generous, this is also supposedly the longest distance flight made by the Y-20s overseas so perhaps they are looking to be more cautious with the route.

 

[Ananda]

From Twitter id vinod, seems already circulate online from Chinese origins. This prototype in Internet being call Y-20B. I don't know if this's already an official designation, but seems Ruppercht Deino also already call that in his Twitter.

Let's see what if this version with the long awaited WS-20 engine will be the one that really can reach manufacturer claim range and performance.

 

[John Fedup]

View attachment 48869
From Twitter id vinod, seems already circulate online from Chinese origins. This prototype in Internet being call Y-20B. I don't know if this's already an official designation, but seems Ruppercht Deino also already call that in his Twitter.

Let's see what if this version with the long awaited WS-20 engine will be the one that really can reach manufacturer claim range and performance.

…and WS-20 durability.

 

[Ananda]

and WS-20 durability.

WS-20 is big project to China as its aim also for domestic engine choice of C919. Just as Russia also use PD-14 for MC-21 domestic choice. So they're invest much with WS-20 which being claim as alternative for CFM56.

Thus using similar engine as their Commercial Airliners (C-919), they're also aim for more economical maintenance for Y-20 engine fleet (as they hope the population overall will be significant enough).

Just like Russia, China also see potential Geopolitical condition being used to hindered C-919 marketability on engine availability. For that reliability of WS-20 not only effect Y-20 operation, but more importantly C919 future.

 

[ngatimozart]

WS-20 is big project to China as its aim also for domestic engine choice of C919. Just as Russia also use PD-14 for MC-21 domestic choice. So they're invest much with WS-20 which being claim as alternative for CFM56.

Thus using similar engine as their Commercial Airliners (C-919), they're also aim for more economical maintenance for Y-20 engine fleet (as they hope the population overall will be significant enough).

Just like Russia, China also see potential Geopolitical condition being used to hindered C-919 marketability on engine availability. For that reliability of WS-20 not only effect Y-20 operation, but more importantly C919 future.

I know about 5 years ago they were have metallurgy problems being unable to match the US, Euro, Russian, or Ukrainian engine metallurgy capabilities. It's not something that they could steal either because those are very closely secrets and I doubt if they would be able to reverse engineer any of it either. It's something that they more or less have to gain experience and knowledge in right from scratch as they build their knowledge base. Do you think that they have achieved a gas turbine metallurgical equivalence of where the Russians were say 20 years ago?

 

[Ananda]

Do you think that they have achieved a gas turbine metallurgical equivalence of where the Russians were say 20 years ago?

This can only be answer in my opinion on the performance of their latest engine. However seems so far China itself (at least by their media claim) quite comfidences with their domestic engine.

However so far (at least based on commercial order), most export customers that order Chinese vessels (whether commercial Ships or even Airliners), still demand on using Western engine. I look to some LC order on Chinese build vessels.

So this WS-20 I do see (at least for a decade) will only be used by C219 that used domestically or (if export) with customers that have difficulty on getting Western engines).

However I do suspect they have not reach parity with Western engine yet, even with the latest Russian ones. Perhaps they already reach parity with Ukrainian ones. Ukrainian engine seems with all Political and Financial problem they got, stuck with tech of the 80's or early 90's. Just speculate on that as C919 performance (even official ones), not in par yet with 737 Max or A320 Neo or even MC-21. At most C919 closing parity of 737 NG and A320 ceo which still used 90's based version of CFM56. This I look on matter of range (thus related to fuel consumption).

So I do suspect they already achieved what Russian, perhaps even West metallurgical capabilities on Turbines in the 90's. Again this's just based on the claim performance of C919 that will be using WS-20.

 

[tonyget]

I know about 5 years ago they were have metallurgy problems being unable to match the US, Euro, Russian, or Ukrainian engine metallurgy capabilities. It's not something that they could steal either because those are very closely secrets and I doubt if they would be able to reverse engineer any of it either. It's something that they more or less have to gain experience and knowledge in right from scratch as they build their knowledge base. Do you think that they have achieved a gas turbine metallurgical equivalence of where the Russians were say 20 years ago?

The new jet fighters of Chinese are all equipped with domestic engines instead of Russian one. Keep in mind China have no problem of purchasing Russian engines if they wish to，and PLAAF won't accept domestic engines that do not met requirement. So the answer is obvious.

BTW. Russia now is buying gas turbines from China，did you know that？

https://inf.news/en/military/32547d7c478ec544311a06145ba6e60f.html

 

[tonyget]

This can only be answer in my opinion on the performance of their latest engine. However seems so far China itself (at least by their media claim) quite comfidences with their domestic engine.

However so far (at least based on commercial order), most export customers that order Chinese vessels (whether commercial Ships or even Airliners), still demand on using Western engine. I look to some LC order on Chinese build vessels.

China only start to mass-equipt J-10/J-20/J-15/J-16 with WS-10 recently，so it make sense. Pakistan just ordered some J-10C，I haven't heard that they want to change the engine to AL-31.

So this WS-20 I do see (at least for a decade) will only be used by C219 that used domestically or (if export) with customers that have difficulty on getting Western engines).

However I do suspect they have not reach parity with Western engine yet, even with the latest Russian ones. Perhaps they already reach parity with Ukrainian ones. Ukrainian engine seems with all Political and Financial problem they got, stuck with tech of the 80's or early 90's. Just speculate on that as C919 performance (even official ones), not in par yet with 737 Max or A320 Neo or even MC-21. At most C919 closing parity of 737 NG and A320 ceo which still used 90's based version of CFM56. This I look on matter of range (thus related to fuel consumption).

So I do suspect they already achieved what Russian, perhaps even West metallurgical capabilities on Turbines in the 90's. Again this's just based on the claim performance of C919 that will be using WS-20.

WS-20 is not designed for C-919 and never will be used on C-919，WS-20 isn't suitable for commercial use. The engine China is currently developing for C-919 is called “CJ-1000A”，an engine purely for commercial purpose. At the moment C-919 still use Leap-1C engine

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The new QW-12 is developed for intercepting helicopters, jet aircraft, and cruise missiles. During life-fire test the QW-12 seems also capable of intercepting a 122 mm rocket flying at a speed of 360 m/s while simulating a jet aircraft and a cruise missile.

China tests QW-12 missile capabilities

China tested its QW-12 advanced man-portable air defense system (MANPADS) for intercepting helicopters, jet aircraft, and cruise missiles in a live-fire test.

www.janes.com

 

[Ananda]

WS-20 isn't suitable for commercial use. The engine China is currently developing for C-919 is called “CJ-1000A”，an engine purely for commercial purpose. At the moment C-919 still use Leap-1C engine

Thanks for the correction. Guess I miss read the quote in Chinese Media on getting C919 indegenous engine ASAP, after Trump block US engine parts to China. However as CJ-1000 is not ready yet, thus I presume WS-20 can be an option.

However further digging shown C919 only prepared either for Leap-1C or CJ-1000.

China's first home-grown airliner is seeking its first Western buyer as it takes advantage of Airbus and Boeing delays. Meet the Comac C919.

China hopes the Comac C919 plane will help the country become less reliant on foreign-made technology and advance its aircraft manufacturing industry.

www.businessinsider.com

Pakistan just ordered some J-10C，I haven't heard that they want to change the engine to AL-31.

Pakistan want J-10C and that version so far according to Chinese source only being prepared with WS-10. Hope Pakistan source can confirm the specs of their J-10C version. I do think it will be have much similarities with PLAN version, considering how fast they are being delivered.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

More and more the FC-31 starts to look like the F-35.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1509016322952245249

 

[koxinga]

The first version is more likely a prototype while the second one is a LRIP/EMD. The last and most current version is probably the closer to or is the production variant.

 

[Ananda]

Video on Chinese civilian version Heavy Weight helicopter AC313A, which it self derived from Z8, which in turn derived from Super Frelon copy. This ateration now become more as AW-101 equivalent.

 

[John Fedup]

More and more the FC-31 starts to look like the F-35.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1509016322952245249

Interesting the forward opening canopy from the F-35 wasn’t copied into the FC-31. It would be interesting to know it’s range compared to a F-35C. Unless the FC-31 has greater fuel capacity it is unlikely able to have superior range with its two less sophisticated engines.

 

[Ananda]

SCMP video on J-20. Seems PLAAF wiling to shown this video indicating they are more confidence toward J-20 maturity as overall system.

 

[Ananda]

‘Never-seen-before equipment’ from PLA to appear at Airshow China 2022: senior colonel - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

Seems China will use Zhuhai 2022 Air Show as momentum on showing off their latest aerospace achievement. Preety sure they are going to shown not only on Defense side but also Civilian side.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

China is expanding an air base close to a key southern naval base with the addition of a second runway, widened taxiways and two vastly expanded aircraft parking areas.
The existing runway of the airbase in Guangdong is extended to 3500 m long, and the new parallel runway south of it is 2800 m long.

The air base in Suixi was previously home to the People’s Liberation Army Air Force’s 6th Air Brigade of the Southern Theater Command, which flew the Russian-built Su-30MKK multirole fighters and was the sole operator of the 24 Su-35s. The base also hosted the Guizhou WZ-7 Soaring Dragon, a high-altitude, long-endurance UAV.

The expansion of the air base — particularly the expansion of the aircraft parking areas and widened taxiways — would enable operations by larger aircraft such as H-6 bombers or Y-20 tankers and transports. Its proximity to Zhanjiang is also ideal for providing air defense to the nearby naval base, which is one of two primary bases of the South Sea Fleet.

Satellite images show air base in southern China receiving makeover

China is expanding an air base near a southern naval base with the addition of a second runway, widened taxiways and two expanded aircraft parking areas.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

China has unveiled a new air-launched ballistic missile (ALBM) for use by the People's Liberation Army's (PLA's) H-6K bomber fleet. The missile appears to be similar to the Russian Kh‐47M2 Kinzhal (AS-24 ‘Killjoy') ALBM.

Can it be coincidence because of the same role/function which cause similar chracteristics? Can it be transfer of technology from Russia, or did china simply copy and steal from Russia? But a combination of these factors can also be possible.

Airshow China 2022: China reveals new ALBM for H-6K bombers

China has unveiled a new air-launched ballistic missile (ALBM) for use by the People's Liberation Army's (PLA's) H-6K bomber fleet.

www.janes.com

Some more airshow news...

China's state-owned aerospace and defence prime Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) is displaying the latest variant of the Wing Loong series of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) – Wing Loong-3 (WL-3) – at the Airshow China 2022 exhibition being held in Zhuhai from 8 to 13 November.

According to China Daily, each wing of WL-3 incorporates four underwing hardpoints for external stores, and one hardpoint on centreline of fuselage, so in total the WL-3 has nine payload hardpoints and can carry as many as 16 missiles and bombs. So it is able to carry more payload than the smaller but coincidentally similar looking american copy MQ-9B.

Update – Airshow China 2022: AVIC displays Wing Loong-3

China's state-owned aerospace and defence prime Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) is displaying the latest variant of the Wing Loong series of unmanned...

www.janes.com

And finally this:
China has at least 200 stealthy J-20 fighters and more than 240 J-16 multirole strike aircraft in service, based on analysis of construction numbers painted on the jets by a Chinese military aviation expert.
More details in this article.

Zhuhai Airshow display reveals info on China’s J-20, J-16 inventory

The presence of J-20s on static display at the show has allowed photographers to obtain better resolution images of the aircraft than previously possible.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

China has displayed two turbofan engines with thrust vectoring control (TVC) nozzles during the Airshow China 2022 exhibition being held in Zhuhai from 8 to 13 November. They have undoubtly learned a lot from the 24 Su-35 they bought from Russia.

Airshow China 2022: China displays thrust vectoring engines

China has displayed two turbofan engines with thrust vectoring control (TVC) nozzles during the Airshow China 2022 exhibition being held in Zhuhai from 8 to 13 November.

www.janes.com

Also the new WL-10 UAV was presented at the airshow.
According to the Zhuhai government website, WL-10 is a high-altitude long-endurance (HALE) UAV that has a wingspan of about 10 m and a height of nearly 2 m.
The electronic warfare-capable WL-10 features relatively low-wing variable sweep planform with slender fuselage that incorporates a bulged nose section (incorporating a dorsal antenna hump), a tricycle undercarriage, a V-shaped tail assembly incorporating ruddervators, and a rear-mounted turbojet engine. So it looks like a copy of the General Atomics MQ-20 Avenger, but it is much smaller.

Airshow China 2022: AVIC displays Wing Loong-10 in PLAAF colour

China's state-owned aerospace and defence prime Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) has displayed the Wing Loong-10 (WL-10) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) at...

www.janes.com

 

[ngatimozart]

Video of PLAAF J-20 display at recent 2022 China Airshow.