Chinese Air Force (PLA-AF) News and Discussion

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Perhaps it is some kind of Attrition game. They have more Aircraft, thus pushing Taiwan Fighters operational tempo will increase their weariness and drove potential problem. This can work either to the hard assets and also man power.
Fits in with their strategy of almost continual harassment. They were doing the same to the Japanese earlier this year. Gives them an opportunity to test Taiwan's air defences as well.

Trouble with this tactic is that it just takes one nervous new recruit and all of a sudden you have a shooting game.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
As ngatimozart previously mentioned, a Chinese aim is also probably to establish a regular pattern in order to lure the Taiwanese into a false sense of security, until such a time when an actual conflict occurs.

After a while constantly having to launch fighters will take a toll on Taiwan. The question is how does it respond should the Chinese increase the tempo?
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
As ngatimozart previously mentioned, a Chinese aim is also probably to establish a regular pattern in order to lull the Taiwanese into a false sense of security, until such a time when an actual conflict occurs.

After a while constantly having to launch fighters will take a toll on Taiwan. The question is how does it respond should the Chinese increase the tempo?
1. Current Chinese strategy is what David Kilcullen calls liminal warfare. Others have used the “little green men” expression — they have plans for undermining a sovereign nation without firing a shot — the Russians are doing it through intimidation, spawning social or nationalistic unrest, capitalizing on social-media and utilizing the new domains of cyber and space in coordinated attacks that occur under the threshold of war. Likewise, Chinese efforts will involve intimidation, capitalizing on social-media and utilizing the new domains of cyber and space in coordinated attacks.

2. The ADIZ is not the same as Taiwan’s territorial airspace but includes a far greater area that overlaps with part of China’s own ADIZ and even includes some of the mainland. Due to the PLA’s intensification of sea and air drills in the southwestern corner of Taiwan’s ADIZ, the Pratas Islands (Dongsha Islands, 東沙島) are under severe threat from China’s military. Taiwan’s Ministry of National Defense has responded by garrisoning the Marine Corps on the Pratas Islands, ostensibly to conduct off-shore training, but in reality to bolster its defences. In 2020, a record 380 Chinese military jets made incursions into Taiwan’s defence zone. The number as of Oct 2021, has already exceeded 600.
(a) The Pratas Islands are only about 400km from Kaohsiung. If a conflict breaks out, it would affect shipping routes that run through the Taiwan Strait and the Bashi Channel. Not only would this affect Taiwan, the JMSDF will have to act, to prevent their SLOCs from being cut by the PLA(N).​
(b) As I wrote in 6 detailed posts another thread, China has already begun a process of coercion, and as that continues, the next actions they take may not — and I think likely would not — be an all outright invasion of Taiwan. It might include anything from a blockade to increased cyber harassment, to seizure of the islands in between China and Taiwan.​
(c) Michael Mazarr, a former National War College, professor and special assistant to the JCS chair now at the RAND Corporation said: “They could take some of those actions and kind of flip the deterrence script by taking a partial action and then attempting to deter us from responding or escalating.”​

3. At the same time, PLA Taiwan invasion preparations are accelerating. Mainly with the integration of civilian sea and air transport assets, and more aggressive exercises and probes. Large civilian 15,000 to 30,000 ton Roll-On-Roll-Off ferries were previously assessed to be charged with transporting the bulk of PLA armored and mechanized units to captured Taiwan ports. Now they could be equipped with special ramps to join large PLA Navy amphibious assault ships to launch amphibious armored vehicles into the water. This could triple the number of amphibious armored vehicles that can be launched against Taiwan beaches.

4. Looking back at history, pior to the start of WWII, the French did not just built the maginot line and called it a day. The French military expenditures as well as the equipment and formations they bought and created showed that they were still planning to fight a war. Like the French, the current Taiwanese equipment is not bad either. What is wrong is the mindset. That is leading Taiwanese war planning in wrong direction.

5. Like the French, Taiwan plans to meet the enemy with their troops in their modern maginot line. Where the Taiwanese failed to see what kind of tactics were possible by all the new PLA weapons systems and technologies which emerged. And this will break their back during their fighting retrograde, from the PLA seeking to break-out of the beachhead. Taiwan News highlighted the “exciting new developments” of Taiwan’s recent armaments, which I see as doing the minimum (in the hopes that the Americans and Japanese do not notice the lack of effort and focus). IMO, a Chinese attack on Taiwan might possess certain key characteristics:

(a) a crippling first strike, occurring without warning signs or suddenly escalating when least expected. China’s objective would be to impose a political settlement before the US and Japan could effectively intervene;​
(b) mass cyberattacks would target Taiwanese C4I Systems. Activation of cells of Chinese agents embedded within Taiwanese society to engage in acts of assassination, disinformation, or sabotage; and​
(c) thousands of follow-on SRBM strikes (after the 1st strike), to last over 42 days, used for facilitating Chinese air operations over the Strait and Taiwan. Chinese air control would likely be viewed as a key prerequisite for a successful naval and amphibious campaign.​
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
J-20B should be a good replacement for J-11BS/BSH and J-16 further down the road.
The J-20, A and B, are China’s top tier jets. The J-31 (FC-31?) will be their future naval fighter and probably a land version will be the more economical stealth fighter that will see larger numbers produced. Then again, their military aviation industry might surprise us with yet another new jet, the advantages of huge cash reserves and no political whining from the masses.
 

Paull Fuzzball

New Member
The J-20, A and B, are China’s top tier jets. The J-31 (FC-31?) will be their future naval fighter and probably a land version will be the more economical stealth fighter that will see larger numbers produced. Then again, their military aviation industry might surprise us with yet another new jet, the advantages of huge cash reserves and no political whining from the masses.
It'll be a while before J-20 start phasing out J-11 / 16. Chinese air force still operates a large number of J-8, which probably need another 5 years to be phased out by J-11 / 16.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

Article from SCMP on Chinese Hypersonic Wind Tunnel. This kind of facility that China claim the most advance in thebeorld, that even NASA do not posses. This is under their claim what makes Cjina lead on Hypersonic game against US.

The facilities it self still classified on the location, but some schematics of the design seems being allowed to be shown in media. Whatever the truth on the claim, hypersonic game is the one thing China fell comfident they have the outright technological leads possition from US. Something they are Invest hard to kept.
 

wp2000

Member
It'll be a while before J-20 start phasing out J-11 / 16. Chinese air force still operates a large number of J-8, which probably need another 5 years to be phased out by J-11 / 16.
Actually, there are less than 100 J8 in service now. It’s the 300+ J7 that will need 5+ Years to phase out.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
http://instagr.am/p/CZOsIpCvR9n/
This Instagram from an Indonesian defense enthusiasts shown Y-20 that seems going to Tonga stop in Menado (Northern Celebes island) for refueling.

The point that I try to make is, this plane after refueling in Menado seems still have another stop in PNG, before went to Tonga. Thus in my opinion Y-20 (at least this version) is still not have enough leg yet as long range transport. At most the capabilities still consider as inter regional transport.

This in my opinion, can shown PLA still have limited capabilities to be able to have Global reach yet.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Guangzhou - Menado 2700 km
Menado - Port Moresby 2750 km
Port Moresby - Tonga 4200 km

Ive the feeling that the range of the Y-20 is indeed less than the C-17 or Il-76.
Unless it carried something like 50.000 - 70.000 kg of freight with it.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Some figure put Y-20 range being put as 4500km on full capacity. However seems Chinese official data still bit silence on the real range of Y-20.


This realisation that to get to PNG they need one stop over, and to get to Tonga need to at least 2 stop over, even raise question on the claim 4500km on full capacity.

Even with that range Y-20 only slightly longer leg then C-130J and still below A400M, eventough Y-20 being talk have larger full capacities. This shown why the need for PLA to build strings of dual uses bases in their road and belt initiative.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Some figure put Y-20 range being put as 4500km on full capacity. However seems Chinese official data still bit silence on the real range of Y-20.


This realisation that to get to PNG they need one stop over, and to get to Tonga need to at least 2 stop over, even raise question on the claim 4500km on full capacity.

Even with that range Y-20 only slightly longer leg then C-130J and still below A400M, eventough Y-20 being talk have larger full capacities. This shown why the need for PLA to build strings of dual uses bases in their road and belt initiative.
Its just funny, that even they have stolen a lot of C-17 data from McDonnell Douglas, they still can not build an airlifter with a long range.

 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
they still can not build an airlifter with a long range.
You know I suspect they're basing more on IL-76 rather then C-17. Aside some exterior design, the base have more similarities with IL-76.

As for range, I suspect it's more to engine. They're still using similar engine with older IL-76 and not the new IL-76MD engine(PS-90A) that already improve performance of IL-76MD toward older variance that PLAF have. So we have to see the performance of Y-20 with the plan indigenous Chinese new turbofan.

Still bit surprised that Y-20 need two stopover in the routes to PNG from Guangzhou. Statistically the official range should enable it non stop to PNG, and stopover only there before enroutes to Tonga.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Agree, the range issue is likely a function of engine performance. Jet engine technology is where the West enjoys advantage, especially wrt China. despite having invested billions (theft and design). New adaptive cycle technology should maintain the Western advantage.
 

ragingsheep

New Member
The point that I try to make is, this plane after refueling in Menado seems still have another stop in PNG, before went to Tonga. Thus in my opinion Y-20 (at least this version) is still not have enough leg yet as long range transport. At most the capabilities still consider as inter regional transport.

This in my opinion, can shown PLA still have limited capabilities to be able to have Global reach yet.
Some figure put Y-20 range being put as 4500km on full capacity. However seems Chinese official data still bit silence on the real range of Y-20.
Am I missing something? Guangzhou to Port Moresby is almost 5200km in a straight line. If the Y-20 has a claimed range of 4500km, then it's always going to need a stop over somewhere.

Port Morseby to Tonga is over 4200km so even that's close to its limit if the claimed range is somewhat accurate.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
According to several aerospace sites (which seems quoting Xi'an official data) that 4000-4500km range is for full capacity. That full capacity seems will be achieved if it's transporting heavy military equipment like Type 99 MBT.

However if taking 40tons of capacity (which basically many humanitarian payload will be) the range claim to be 4500miles. Thus Guangzhou-Port Moresby should still be capable reached non stop.


I presume for humanitarian cargo, 40-45 tons is usually the capacity. Humanitarian cargo are bulky and take space in cargo bays, but relative lighter then heavy military equipment like MBT or armoured vehicles.

So for me, I just bit suspicion that the real range of this Y-20 actually shorter then the official range claim.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
According to several aerospace sites (which seems quoting Xi'an official data) that 4000-4500km range is for full capacity. That full capacity seems will be achieved if it's transporting heavy military equipment like Type 99 MBT.

However if taking 40tons of capacity (which basically many humanitarian payload will be) the range claim to be 4500miles. Thus Guangzhou-Port Moresby should still be capable reached non stop.


I presume for humanitarian cargo, 40-45 tons is usually the capacity. Humanitarian cargo are bulky and take space in cargo bays, but relative lighter then heavy military equipment like MBT or armoured vehicles.

So for me, I just bit suspicion that the real range of this Y-20 actually shorter then the official range claim.
I suspect your suspicion is correct.;)
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Chinese internet always claim the present version that using D-30 engine is interim one, before being replaced by Chinese WS-20 turbofan. Perhaps the claim range is for version with WS-20.

If that so, it's still big claim as that claim put Y-20 on similar range with C-17. Thus it's also claim WS-20 already achieved similar performance with PW F-117 on C-17.

We already see in many Airliners, performance of better engine due matter plus better materials to construct. With taking three trips for only humanitarian cargo to Tonga, for me shown the present version with D-30 engine is still not within the claim range. Not surprising as this is practically old Sovyet design engine that Russia it self is not using that anymore for present iteration of IL-76MD.

So let's see how this WS-20 development will be ;)
 
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