Chilean Army Buys 100 Leopard 2 MBT

[contedicavour]

Chile has been very wise in using windfall from high copper prices to renew its armed forces with very cheap modern material. The Dutch and British FFGs, the F16s and now Leo2s clearly make Chile's armed forces the best equipped south of the Rio Grande, and by a big margin. Next priority should be to add to its 10 new F16s with European MLU F16s. Btw do the Chileans have access to Amraam or are they using Israeli Derby like Brazil ?

Argentina hasn't spent much on its armed forces in the last 20 years, with its navy only receiving second hand fleet replenisher and a '60s vintage French LPD, the air force updating the electronics on its A4s. Argentina poses no threat to its neighbors with today's equipment. They would desperately need the same second hand equipment that Chile is buying...

Peru has some decently modern Russian equipment (MIG29, SU25, T72s IIRC) and its acquisition of 4 ex Italian Lupo FFGs gives it a good homogeneous frigate squadron of 8 almost identical FFGs.

To summarize, Chile is investing to ensure its superiority for 20+ years. A wise choice. It would be better if it helped out more in UN missions, now that it has first rate equipment

cheers

 

[Gladius]

Btw do the Chileans have access to Amraam or are they using Israeli Derby like Brazil ?

The FACh will use both missiles, the AMRAAMs were included in the Peace Puma Program (the 547 Million US$ F-16 deal). The Derbys missiles were inroduced in the FACh a few years ago, and apparently a second purchase was reported last year (of about ~80 uds).

 

[contedicavour]

The FACh will use both missiles, the AMRAAMs were included in the Peace Puma Program (the 547 Million US$ F-16 deal). The Derbys missiles were inroduced in the FACh a few years ago, and apparently a second purchase was reported last year (of about ~80 uds).

Thanks for the information !
Chile is the first Latin American country to operate Amraam then. Yet another edge vs Peruvian unmodernized Mirage 2000 and MIG29s. Their armed forces are getting very close to NATO standards.

cheers

 

[Gladius]

Peru has some decently modern Russian equipment (MIG29, SU25, T72s IIRC) and its acquisition of 4 ex Italian Lupo FFGs gives it a good homogeneous frigate squadron of 8 almost identical FFGs.

A little comment, the thing with the rumored T-72 is very dark. Rumors about them has been appeared on the Sud-American Media and internet, but at this moment we remain awaiting a sole photo to verify their presence in Peru. Its very strange with the proliferation of pics and videos of all available Peruvian vehicles, aircrafts etc... included rare prototypes as the Leon 1 (T-55 with Missiles AT...) that years after the start of the rumors of T-72 we are awaiting still for one evidence of their existence.

I'm afraid that the T-72 theme ends like the supposed rumor of M-84 (ex-Yugoslavians).

IMHO, the upgrade received by the T-55, observed during the Military Parades of 2006, doesn't foretell anything encouraging in the matter. Why spend more money in them if you have received new MBTs?

 

[contedicavour]

A little comment, the thing with the rumored T-72 is very dark. Rumors about them has been appeared on the Sud-American Media and internet, but at this moment we remain awaiting a sole photo to verify their presence in Peru. Its very strange with the proliferation of pics and videos of all available Peruvian vehicles, aircrafts etc... included rare prototypes as the Leon 1 (T-55 with Missiles AT...) that years after the start of the rumors of T-72 we are awaiting still for one evidence of their existence.

I'm afraid that the T-72 theme ends like the supposed rumor of M-84 (ex-Yugoslavians).

IMHO, the upgrade received by the T-55, observed during the Military Parades of 2006, doesn't foretell anything encouraging in the matter. Why spend more money in them if you have received new MBTs?

True, I have never seen pictures of Peruvian T72s despite all the talking about them. Peru will need them to equilibrate forces a bit with Chile on its southern border. On the Ecuadorian border though, given the jungles and rivers, I'd rather see more artillery (120mm mortars especially) and helos (MI-8/17) for highly mobile infantry troops.
Anyway, Peru is benefitting from the same minerals' price increase bonanza on world markets. So they should be able to fund some more material after the 4 Italian Lupo FFG acquisition last year.

cheers

 

[Feña]

I was looking for a flash presentation of the new "armored brigades" of the chilean army, at least five of this will be created in the next years, and the program seems to be concluded in 2010 ...

New Armoured Brigades

Bye

 

[Feña]

Well as the presentation shows the five new armoured brigades will be operational between 2010 and 2012, each one will had an exploration seccion with 4 helos and 40 Hummves, the combat outfit will had 50 Leopard 2 MBTs, 150 M113 / YPR 765 AIFV, 12 M109 RUAG and 12 AA system (probably german Gepards). The ATGM are the SPIKE SR/MR/LR mounted on the Hummves and YPRs.

Three of this brigades will be located in the far north facing Perú and Bolivia and the remaining two gona be in the far south, facing Argentina. This distribution is because that part of the country are the best MBT country and dont have the protection of the Andes as a natural barrier.

About the peruvian T72 they never have been shown to anybody so is kind of hard to tell that this MBT are in their inventory, and even if they have it, the crews simply aren´t getting the apropiate amoun of training ... so to play "catch up", Argentina, Perú and to lesser extent Bolivia need to invest an awful lot of money and I don´t think they have the will to do it, and even if they do, you just cant improvise a Brigade by buying the tanks, so, we in LA probably are facing a "Pax Chilena" for at least 20 years

By the way ... yesterday the Minister of Defense Ms Blanlot visit the Palace of La Moneda with the army four-star .... I think the army is gona make more news real soon .... "yes madame president sign, here, here and here"

 

[Gladius]

Interesting Feña, but I see some problems.

First, the info is from the newspaper El Mercurio, with many antecedents of inaccurate info (like occur with the Spanish Weaponry deals with Columbia). Do you have any official source to verify the info on the graphics? Because my last official info of the plans of reform of the Chilean Army (from September 2006) included the creation of "3" Armored Brigades plus the Special Ops Brigade "Lautaro" (created the past 26 of December with the dissolution of the Reinforced Regiment Nº22 “Lautaro”). The info about "3" Armored Brigades was supplied the last 14 of September by the Commandant in Chief of the Chilean Army (Army General Óscar Izurieta Ferrer).

Second, the quantity of Leopards 2A4 bought is 118 without any more contracts announced for more units at the moment. Moreover I though that the Chilean Army was interested now on wheeled AFV (like the Centauro...) to give an armored fist to the new motorized units. They are put-off this interest to go for more Leo 2?
And AFAIK the YPR-765s are only 139 with ~400 M-113 in service and with around 100 Hummers. You have a Gap of ~150 Leos 2A4 & ~250 IFVs, and some hundreds of hummers to complete the 5 armored brigades announced by El Mercurio.

Third, also if we trust in the info said by the General Izurrieta to the Media, the last 31 of August, the reorganization plans included motorized and mountain brigades, and El Mercurio not do any mention about them. Where are those? Perhaps have been canceled? I don't think so, but if you have any new data please, said us.

IMHO, the info of El Mercurio, is better to be taken with a grain of salt; while we remain without any official source (Chilean Army, Defence Ministry, etc... ) to verify the news.

Speech of the Army General Óscar Izurieta Ferrer (September 14, 2006)
http://www.ejercito.cl/admin/upload...oc?PHPSESSID=0d700e480d9a464a2e0fed20a205b5e8

Speech of the Army General Óscar Izurieta Ferrer (August 31, 2006)
http://www.ejercito.cl/admin/upload...oc?PHPSESSID=6b7b9c9ec0fd7bd2993f642b8f080b69

 

[TrangleC]

I suppose the theory went - Abrams is battle tested and the Leo isn't.

What do you mean with "battle" in this context? Shooting at old T-64 that have been abandoned by their crews when the first jets could be heard in the sky, rolling into cities, shooting at a few buildings and then pulling down a few Saddam statues and maybe rolling over a few civillian cars?
It you mean that with "battle", yes, the Abrams did that quite well i guess, but i wager that other tanks could have done that too.

 

[willb]

abrams tested in battle - 1991 war.
from http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/desert_sabre.htm
us VII corps accounted for 1300tanks, 1200ifv/apc, 285 artilley, 100 air defense systems, and captured 22,000 compared to total us losses of 7 abrams, 15 bradleys, 2 apc, and 1 apache.

 

[TrangleC]

abrams tested in battle - 1991 war.
from http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/desert_sabre.htm
us VII corps accounted for 1300tanks, 1200ifv/apc, 285 artilley, 100 air defense systems, and captured 22,000 compared to total us losses of 7 abrams, 15 bradleys, 2 apc, and 1 apache.

Sure, but look at the opponents... old russian tanks, bombed by the airforce for quite some time before the first Abrams crossed the border, demoralized troops, commanders who abandoned their troops on the first day of the war, troops who abandoned their tanks and equipment or just sat in their trenches, not firing a single shot and waiting for a chance to surrender.
They could have capturen a lot more than 22,000 if they wouldn't have chosen to burry those poor fuckers alife in their trenches.
The US military tradition to send the ground troops only after the airforce already has broken the enemy is certainly clever, but not very heroic and thus doesn't give the tanks much chance to prove their worth.
The whole thing was too one sided to be called a real battle. Under this conditions every modern MBT couldn't possibly have failed.

 

[willb]

please read the link on the site for chapter eight. combined arms doctrine is used by british, german, russians, and others. the british army and french air force and armies also took part in the 1991 war along with quite a few other countries. the iraqi equipment was definitely not first rate - the t72 export model being the best they had, nor was their training, but not all of them gave up or ran away, nor were all that many buried. a lot of them did run though. vii corps attacked west of the trenches and not through them. yes, most modern tanks would probably have done as well, if they were well trained and used combined arms. as it is though both the challenger and abrams have seen action, some of it quite intense. you cant't take losses fromenemy fire if the enemy is not shooting at you.

 

[Feña]

Interesting Feña, but I see some problems.

There always gona be some problems ... when you talk about military systems everyone has a different opinion ...

First, the info is from the newspaper El Mercurio, with many antecedents of inaccurate info (like occur with the Spanish Weaponry deals with Columbia). Do you have any official source to verify the info on the graphics? Because my last official info of the plans of reform of the Chilean Army (from September 2006) included the creation of "3" Armored Brigades plus the Special Ops Brigade "Lautaro" (created the past 26 of December with the dissolution of the Reinforced Regiment Nº22 “Lautaro”). The info about "3" Armored Brigades was supplied the last 14 of September by the Commandant in Chief of the Chilean Army (Army General Óscar Izurieta Ferrer).

I undestand your doubts, but the chilean miltary are always sending mixed signals ... but if you know how to read between the lines, its easy to break the code .... at this point you cant say there is not gona be five brigades, just that in this fase, they will create two in the north of Chile, after that, in four or five years, they will create the remaining brigade in the north and the brigades in the far south will replace their Leopard 1 for Leopard 2 and complete their TOEs with the same equipment of their sisters in the north ...

Second, the quantity of Leopards 2A4 bought is 118 without any more contracts announced for more units at the moment. Moreover I though that the Chilean Army was interested now on wheeled AFV (like the Centauro...) to give an armored fist to the new motorized units. They are put-off this interest to go for more Leo 2?

The number is quite interesting because it allow the army to create the first two heavy brigades and the training company in the Armoured Cavalry School of Quilota ....

You must keep in mind that we do not have the resouces of the US ARMY, so we can´t get everything in our wish list overnight, and we have a clean record of near 126 years of foreign peace, so the goal of replace our entire MBT fleet is not something that we want or MUST do right away, this process will take some time and in our point of view is better to keep our bucks and save them to take advantage of the future reductions of the european inventories ... right now the army are part of the Leopard Club and the countryes with surplus inventories knows that we have the will and the money to pay cash for the hardware, just remember that the swiss army has offer us another 93 L2 ... and the sale of that is just a political decision ... and as far as I know the germans and dutch are quite happy to sale their surplus harware for something more than 1 euro the piece (MIG 29 to Polland, ring any bells?) ...

And AFAIK the YPR-765s are only 139 with ~400 M-113 in service and with around 100 Hummers. You have a Gap of ~150 Leos 2A4 & ~250 IFVs, and some hundreds of hummers to complete the 5 armored brigades announced by El Mercurio.

Im glad that you get the numbers right, so again, there are not any hurryes in our part to complete the acquisition process, we dont have any threaths to our safety as a nation , so we can take the time to do inteligent purchases an to train the units with order and by the numbers .... and the Hummers are 200 by the way ... with another batch to the chilean marines ... so 200/5 = 40 right?

And you just cant change every MBT in any army overnight, because the crews needs time to get used to the new rides and to take full advantage of the new capabilityes, so i see a lot of sense in doing this change with care and taking some time to get it right ... besides, our 220 Leopard 1V still are one of the biggest dogs in this yard and cant be more than a challenge to any T55, TAM or SK 105 ... even the legendary peruvian T72 will have to show some respect for it ...

Third, also if we trust in the info said by the General Izurrieta to the Media, the last 31 of August, the reorganization plans included motorized and mountain brigades, and El Mercurio not do any mention about them. Where are those? Perhaps have been canceled? I don't think so, but if you have any new data please, said us.

Yep, you can´t just have armoured brigades in a contry with more than four thousand km of mountains in one frontier ... you need mountain and motorized brigades, in central Chile you will find the mountain brigades AND the motorized brigades, wich provides the strategic reserve for any theater ... its kind of difficult to take land from the enemy and retain it without grunts ... the L2 are fine machines but cannot make tactical miracles .... one good example of this infantry outfits is the Reinforced Infantry Regiment N° 1 “Buin”, craddle and pride of the chilean army, garrison? the city of Santiago, strength? about 1.200 troops , rides? MOWAG 6x6 APC ... AND they are now building up their TOEs and receiving more officers, NCOs and troops from the closed regiments ... get it?

IMHO, the info of El Mercurio, is better to be taken with a grain of salt; while we remain without any official source (Chilean Army, Defence Ministry, etc... ) to verify the news.

Well, get yourself a nice chair because usually the first official word of any new weapons acquisitions came when the deal is close, take a look at what has happened with the dutch F16, the L2 or even the M109 RUAG deals .... the chilean military are not a very media friendly bunch, but once when they have the goverment green light for a new system, they send short messages to the community with the help of some very specific journalist to have a feel of the social enviroment, if the announce dont raise a lot of noice, then they proceed, but if the situation is adverse or get too much attention, they keep the program quiet for a while ... what can I say .... this is the way things are usually done here.

And about having a "fair" battle , for me, a fair battle means that I get all my troops back alive and unarm, f**** the others

Bye

 

[swerve]

... and as far as I know the germans and dutch are quite happy to sale their surplus harware for something more than 1 euro the piece (MIG 29 to Polland, ring any bells?) ......
Bye

That was a one-off, a political gift to Poland. The exceptionally low price for Polands Leo 2s (ca €120 K each)was for the same reason. Greece got cheap Leo 2A4 (€270 million for 170 Leo 2A4 & 183 Leo 1A5, including refurbishment) only by paying full price for new Leo 2A6, & Spain the same. Finland paid ca €1 million each for its Leopard 2A4, including spares, ammo, etc.

The Bundeswehr needs every Euro cent it can get, & will charge as much as the traffic will bear, except where overridden by politicians. And they have no political reason to subsidise Chiles armed forces, & Chile isn't buying a couple of hundred of new Leopard 2A6. So sorry, no 1 Euro deals.

 

[Gladius]

I undestand your doubts, but the chilean miltary are always sending mixed signals ... but if you know how to read between the lines, its easy to break the code .

Woah! Wait a moment. Are you insinuating that the commander-in-chief of the Chilean Army was lying to its peers Generals and Admirals...

Feña, I can understand that the plans or priorities change at any moment, but to assume that an official of that rank in a democratic state as Chile lies publically, is something that I will never believe. That accusation is very serious and in justice if had happened the General Izurieta would be indictable by the Chilean Military Courts by violating the code and regulations in force in the Chilean Armed Forces.

right now the army are part of the Leopard Club and the countryes with surplus inventories knows that we have the will and the money to pay cash for the hardware...

Um, and you should remember that the copper bonanza (and the cash to Chilean Armed Forces by the Copper Law) is not eternal. Buf if you have the cash, why are you talking about 1€ deals...

just remember that the swiss army has offer us another 93 L2 ... and the sale of that is just a political decision ...

Now purchase Pz87s, better seek more Leo 2A4 from Netherland or German stocks. The swiss Pz87 have some minor differences with their brothers A4s around the world. If the you bought them you have to change the swiss mods to standardizing the entire fleet of Leo 2 on Chile. And we are talking with cash limits, because the Chilean Army have to buy (and modernize) hundreds of IFVs, Cavalry AFVs, AT-Missiles, Hummers... also, to complete with them the TOEs for your "5" Arm. Brigades and the Cav. & Mountain Brigades.

and as far as I know the germans and dutch are quite happy to sale their surplus harware for something more than 1 euro the piece (MIG 29 to Polland, ring any bells?) ...

No, my friend. The Poland deal, (Leo 2 included) was an exceptional thing, and weighted with the objective to able the Polish Army with a NATO inter-operating capable force for joint international deployments on mind.

The 1€ deals are very far of South America. Specially if allied UE & NATO countries have to pay millions € for any transfer or leasing from German/Netherland/Swiss surplus (Portugal, Greece, Finland, & Spain to name some) or take a peek to the figures discussed for the A4 on deals with Singapore and Turkey.

Im glad that you get the numbers right, so again, there are not any hurryes in our part to complete the acquisition process, we dont have any threaths to our safety as a nation , so we can take the time to do inteligent purchases an to train the units with order and by the numbers .... and the Hummers are 200 by the way ... with another batch to the chilean marines ... so 200/5 = 40 right?

Again, no man. Please, think about that. The Hummers bought by the Chilean Army are to all the new units and some services of the Army, not only for the future Armored Brigades. And only a reduced quantity have AT-Missile provision. A hundred available for the Arm. Brigades on pure AT/Scout roles was a personal and optimist prevision mine, if we examine with care the figures of the hummers contracted, and their configurations, for the Army, the figures could be even smaller.

As proof, a pic of some Hummers assigned to the Special Ops. Brigade "Lautaro":
http://www.ejercito.cl/admin/uploads/file_45913cec80336.jpg

The Hummers received by the Chilean Marines are for the Marines, not for the Army, by that without any influence on this question about the new Army units.

On a side note, IIRC only 100 of the 200 contracted have been received (last Oct, 21st by Valparaiso & Iquique ports). Could you tell us if the pending hundred have arrived? Thank you.

besides, our 220 Leopard 1V still are one of the biggest dogs in this yard and cant be more than a challenge to any T55, TAM or SK 105 ... even the legendary peruvian T72 will have to show some respect for it ...

Yeah, and that would be the logical course, two first line brigades with Leo 2 and the another one-three with the recently expanded fleet of Leo 1.

And that it is another point that reduces credibility to the El Mercurio article, why expand the fleet of Leo I with the recent purchases (and pay enough cash on them) if you have thought to concentrate your armor fist in those 5 brigades of Leo 2 and therefore to continue the acquisitions of 2A4 soon. That not make any sense for me.

About the Peruvians T-72, I put my opinion some messages ago.

Yep, you can´t just have armoured brigades in a contry with more than four thousand km of mountains in one frontier ... you need mountain and motorized brigades, in central Chile you will find the mountain brigades AND the motorized brigades, wich provides the strategic reserve for any theater ... its kind of difficult to take land from the enemy and retain it without grunts ... the L2 are fine machines but cannot make tactical miracles .... one good example of this infantry outfits is the Reinforced Infantry Regiment N° 1 “Buin”, craddle and pride of the chilean army, garrison? the city of Santiago, strength? about 1.200 troops , rides? MOWAG 6x6 APC ... AND they are now building up their TOEs and receiving more officers, NCOs and troops from the closed regiments ... get it?

Yup, but the predicted plans announced by the Army and the Department of Defense indicated a concentration of these units (regiments) in the new structure totally structured in Brigades and not as independent regimental formations. More or less on NATO full style, something again quite logical if we keep in mind that the reduction of predicted troops will leave the Chilean Army around 40.000 total troops. If the Chilean Army is thinking on expanding the number of Heavy Brigades with respect to the announced in September,they will have to cut the predicted figures of cavalry and mountain brigades. The number of available troops has not changed.
So I repeat my question: There is any information that aim toward the expansion of the Armored Units against those of cavalry and mountain? If not, the numbers will be a problem. The article of El Mercurio, said nothing about the other units, and in the graphic only appeared the Armored Brigades, the new Spec. Ops. Brigade and the Air Brigade. Where are the other Brigades? Why mention the S.O. Brigade and the Air Brigade and not the other planned?
IMHO the article is tendentious, lousy or in the best case with incomplete info, a typical case of El Mercurio.

On the other hand, we have to recall that for these new cavalry and mountain brigades have to do some acquisitions to reinforce or complete their capacities, that would be on new vehicle or system acquisition basis. And that would diminish the acquisition capacity of material for other units. I would see a logical movement, if the Chilean Army have changed the plans, that they forgo those purchases. And with the cash saved go shopping for MBTs, IFVs, etc... to the Armored Brigades. Perhaps is that the situation Feña?

A last question. Do you know what missile has been (or will be) selected to be fitted on the Hummers? Because AFAIK the Chilean Army have the TOW, MAPATS, Spike and Milan in service. IIRC some YPR-765 were fitted with the Spike, by that, the logical movement (but not the cheapest) IMHO would be put the Rafael Spike MR/LR on the Hummers.
Any info about this, Feña?

 

[Feña]

Hey!! Back in the road .. here some pictures of the chilean military, most of it came from Marq and Inchelevtraru (copyright respected )

 

[Waylander]

Are there any infos about how satisfied the army is with their new toys?

Any problems due to heat, humidity or high areas of operation?

 

[Feña]

It´s too soon to tell but so far so good ... I will ask some folks of another parts of the country (different climates).... there are rumors about a new batch of german equipment ... (Marder / Gepard / Phz 2000) but nothing clear yet ....

Another pictures of the new equipment ...

 

[Waylander]

PzH2000?

Isn't it a bit too expensive for Chile? I would expect them to buy zeroed M109Gs but no PzH2000.
Nevertheless buying PzH2000, hopefully with the whole ADLER network and COBRA fire finder radar, would push Chiles artillery capabilities far ahead of everybody else in the region and making artillery operations against their forces very costly adventures.

 

[Feña]

The good thing is that the high command didnt forget the grunts .... (this ones belongs to Marq) ...