Budget cuts in European Navies

[KAPITAIN]

Personaly if i was in charge in the kremlin i would definatly agree with you yes it is overkill, i do know the coast gaurd is more than capible of forfilling this role but also a few nanchuka PTG boats would do just fine too, and yes it is a waste of money but do tell that to top brass who wont listen to you.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Black sea fleet isnt a major fleet it never was the fleet was only realy there to look good and make the people living on that coast feel at ease with the presence of a soviet warship, however during war time it was seen that that region would be the last to be invaded and so a bigger emphasis was placed on the northern pacfic and baltic fleets with the caspian and black sea coming last in the runnings.

I'd strongly disagree with that. The Black Sea Fleet was critical as a supplementary counterpoint to the US 5th Fleet. She was also designed to act as a lever against the Turks and neighbouring states to reinforce Soviet capability. This was in addition to providing additional mobile strike platforms for ballistic strike.

The Soviets never completely trusted their states like Ukraine and Georgia, and you don;t have to go too far back in Soviet history to see how both Ukrainians and Georgians were treated by leaders such as Stalin, Brezhnev and Kruschev.

The Black Sea Fleet was a visible and demonstrable reminder of the power of the state to impose military presence and will - even in a "lake".

 

[gf0012-aust]

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[contedicavour]

I'd strongly disagree with that. The Black Sea Fleet was critical as a supplementary counterpoint to the US 5th Fleet. She was also designed to act as a lever against the Turks and neighbouring states to reinforce Soviet capability. This was in addition to providing additional mobile strike platforms for ballistic strike.

The Soviets never completely trusted their states like Ukraine and Georgia, and you don;t have to go too far back in Soviet history to see how both Ukrainians and Georgians were treated by leaders such as Stalin, Brezhnev and Kruschev.

The Black Sea Fleet was a visible and demonstrable reminder of the power of the state to impose military presence and will - even in a "lake".

Thank you gf0012 !
For these reasons I am astonished that the Russians are still putting such a low priority on funding for their Black Sea Fleet. Budget cuts seem to hurt Russian Fleets differently : heavy cuts on the Black and Pacific fleets, some new ships in the Baltic, and the bulk of investment goes to Murmansk.
This doesn't seem to make sense vs current geopolitical threats/priorities.

cheers

 

[KAPITAIN]

The buget's for the pacific and black sea have been cut badly the worst affeted is the black sea, this is because they are becoming stupid the threats lie outside of the black sea in the caucuses not high up over in the kola peninsular, its just they cant get a priority going.

 

[RA1911]

IMO it's less geopolitical threats and more economical interests combined with the Russian wish of still having a blue water navy to be reconned with. There are huge oile and gas fields as well as fishing resources in the areas above the Kola peninsula, so it's in Russias economical interests to keep a strong presence there.

 

[gf0012-aust]

IMO it's less geopolitical threats and more economical interests combined with the Russian wish of still having a blue water navy to be reconned with. There are huge oile and gas fields as well as fishing resources in the areas above the Kola peninsula, so it's in Russias economical interests to keep a strong presence there.

Putin declared some time ago that Russia no longer needed to have a global fleet presence - the inference was that they were going to focus on immediate areas of national interest - and the Pacific, Indian Oceans and Atlantic don't really fit into the Nat'l Sec interest at the moment.

Better a quality fleet than one diluted by lots of numbers and thus a drain on the necessary funds.

 

[Big-E]

Putin declared some time ago that Russia no longer needed to have a global fleet presence - the inference was that they were going to focus on immediate areas of national interest - and the Pacific, Indian Oceans and Atlantic don't really fit into the Nat'l Sec interest at the moment.

So all they need is an Arctic presence?

 

[gf0012-aust]

So all they need is an Arctic presence?

Buggered if I know. Putin gave a speech about 6 months ago saying that the Russian Navy needed to redefine itself. He indicated that the need to have a permanent blue water presence in those Oceans I mentioned were not of high importance.

At the time I thought it meant that they were going to maintain 2 fleets. The Northern and the Black Sea. The Black Sea Fleet is a shell of its former self though.

Considering that they've lost almost 60 subs to the cutters in the last 3-4 years, then he has stuck to his word about trimming it. There are another 16 nukes tagged for the torch this year. I think they've closed about 60% of their North Sea facilities as well. RANSAC had a report published last year stating which ones were closed.

They have been pretty brutal.

 

[RA1911]

(the) Atlantic don't really fit into the Nat'l Sec interest at the moment.

Security, no. The Cold War is over. Economical, yes. The border disputes with Norway on the continental shelf have never been settled. These areas contains loads of oil/gas/fish. It's in Russias (and Norways) interest to maintain a trustworthy military presence in these areas.

 

[Big-E]

Security, no. The Cold War is over. Economical, yes. The border disputes with Norway on the continental shelf have never been settled. These areas contains loads of oil/gas/fish. It's in Russias (and Norways) interest to maintain a trustworthy military presence in these areas.

With Norways new frigates that might not be a bad place to put the fleet, that and Vladivostok with the Japanese island disputes.:roll

 

[contedicavour]

With Norways new frigates that might not be a bad place to put the fleet, that and Vladivostok with the Japanese island disputes.:roll

Yep and having no significant naval presence in the Pacific is a big mistake. That's where most of the current military buildup is taking place. One day the Chinese may be tempted to dominate all that empty Siberian space filled up with precious natural resources.
At that point it would be Tsushima once again, and the Russians would have to send their only significant fleet from Murmansk to other side of the world...

To go back to the thread, I've read on Naval Forces that the Russian Navy's priorities for spending are focused on the Dolgoruky SSBNs, the Severodvinsk SSNs, eventually the Lada SSKs, may be some frigates based on the Steregus--- (sorry for the spelling) design, and that's it. Again, I don't get their priorities... they'd need modern destroyers and frigates to supplement the few Udaloy and Sovremenny and to replace the obsolete Krivaks, even more than SSBNs

cheers

 

[Waylander]

I know that it is one of the most loved fantasies of modern thriller authors but I really doubt that china is going to attack russia in the near or middel future.There are too much nuclear warheads which prevent the chinese from being to aggressive (And the other way around).

 

[contedicavour]

I know that it is one of the most loved fantasies of modern thriller authors but I really doubt that china is going to attack russia in the near or middel future.There are too much nuclear warheads which prevent the chinese from being to aggressive (And the other way around).

True. That's why I think Chinese penetration will be slow and gradual, first economic, then demographic, and at the end Russia will probably end up losing all influence on its Eastern provinces... though this process gets faster as the central government shows that it doesn't care about them, to the extent that it leaves the state's most visible asset in place (the Pacific fleet) rust away in Vladivostok.

 

[Grand Danois]

IIRC, the Norwegian Navy is coughing up something like 20 bn NKR (3.25 bn $) for their 5 frigates. That is including NH-90 helos.

That must have torn a sizeable chunk out of the Norwegian defense budget. Have the other services had to suffer from this?

Defense expenditure mn NKR
2000 25,722
2001 26,669
2001 32,461
2003 31,985
2004 32,945
2005 31,346

Source: NATO-RUSSIA COMPENDIUM OF FINANCIAL AND ECONOMIC DATA RELATING TO DEFENCE

So 20bn NKR is not neglible...

More to the general topic, whilst lurking the NATO website I found this nifty piece:

NATO Operational capabilities briefing - Improving capabilities to meet new threats

A glossy presentation, but it somewhat shows it is not as if Europeans are not used to work together on an operational level. It is the connection to common European interest (or lack thereof) that undermines doctrine. The Cold War is over and the political focus has shifted.

Is the Prague Capabilities Commitment a realistic framework?

Hmmm...

 

[contedicavour]

At least one other navy not suffering from budget cuts ...

Well then good for you Norwegians ! Your Navy and the Spanish ones are the only European ones that haven't suffered too much from budget cuts...
cheers

 

[Big-E]

If the Norwegian frigates get SM-2s they would be the most potent AAW fleet in Europe.

 

[contedicavour]

If the Norwegian frigates get SM-2s they would be the most potent AAW fleet in Europe.

That's why I asked RA1911. Apparently no plans whatsoever exist to include SM-2s. By the way FREMM frigates in Italian service are all equipped with VLS A50 for Aster 15 AND 30 missiles. This means that if the order for 10 FREMM is completed, Italy will have 2 Horizons, possibly 2 modified De la Penne DDGs, and 10 FREMM, for a total of 14 ships capable of launching long-range AAW missiles. :italy

cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

Well then good for you Norwegians ! Your Navy and the Spanish ones are the only European ones that haven't suffered too much from budget cuts...
cheers

I think RA1911 is the only Norwegian in this thread.

That's why I asked RA1911. Apparently no plans whatsoever exist to include SM-2s. By the way FREMM frigates in Italian service are all equipped with VLS A50 for Aster 15 AND 30 missiles. This means that if the order for 10 FREMM is completed, Italy will have 2 Horizons, possibly 2 modified De la Penne DDGs, and 10

I thought it was the French who cancelled two Horizons... Did the Italians also cancel two?

 

[Grand Danois]

If the Norwegian frigates get SM-2s they would be the most potent AAW fleet in Europe.

My bets would be on the Dutch LCF or the German Sachsens class. Both sporting SM-2 blk IIIA and AESA multifuction radars. But that would only be until the Type 45 is around.