Budget cuts in European Navies

[contedicavour]

I was just wondering. Can the cuts in the navies also be seen as a positive sign of the strength and security of the region?

In the Far East, countries are increasing spending because they're unsure of each other. Whereas in Europe, the threats have gone so there's no need to have such a large capability any more. Really only the UK and France can afford to run large navies (Germany isn't interested) - it's ridiculous for every country on the coast to need a blue-water capability.

Virtually all European countries operate worldwide peace keeping / enforcing missions. Italy last year had over 7% of its armed forces deployed around the world. So even if your backyard seems peaceful (quite an hypothesis, given the mess in the former Yugoslavia in the '90s, islamic guerrillas in Algeria, almost open warfare in Gaza, etc) you need a serious blue water capacity to back up your armed forces operating elsewhere.
Besides, the R&D and industrial development defence spending brings is irreplaceable and has significant and positive impacts on the overall economy.

cheers

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Cavour, I know all about that. I was merely trying to take a good point out of this, by saying there's more trust in Europe than there is in Asia. I wasn't advocating Europe turning its navies into glorified coastguards.

 

[contedicavour]

Cavour, I know all about that. I was merely trying to take a good point out of this, by saying there's more trust in Europe than there is in Asia. I wasn't advocating Europe turning its navies into glorified coastguards.

No problem it's only that several politicians around Europe (of both left & right) use this valid argument as an excuse to cut budgets whenever they have trouble controlling other expenditures. The peace dividend in Europe was a real thing just after the Cold War, but in today's world it is less and less a good idea...

cheers

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

No problem it's only that several politicians around Europe (of both left & right) use this valid argument as an excuse to cut budgets whenever they have trouble controlling other expenditures. The peace dividend in Europe was a real thing just after the Cold War, but in today's world it is less and less a good idea...

cheers

I understand completely. The Royal Navy has seen delays to Darings 7&8, as well as main gate of CVF, so I can sympathise perfectly. We really need those ships, as well as a firm project to replace our frigates over the next two decades.

 

[Grand Danois]

It seems that DCN/Thales has proposed a 75,000 tonne CVF PA 2 carrier for the Marine Nationale.

Googletranslated.

Second aircraft carrier: DCN and Thales propose a heavier ship and slower
The program of second French aircraft carrier knew an important stage this summer, with the review of design between the industrialists and their customer. Of 19 at July 21, DCN and Thales presented at the ministry for Defense and the national Navy the result of the studies of adaptation of the design of the British CVF to the French needs. A more precise sight of the tricolour building is from now on available. We propose it to you today in this article and in details in the chart of the ship (*). After one year of studies and less than four months of work detailed on the levels conceived for Royal Navy, MOPA2, company in charge of the program, proposed ship a 283 meters length and 75.000 tons, is 10.000 tons more than what was envisaged at the summer 2005. This important increase in the displacement, which would make building a unit almost twice larger than the Charles of Gaulle (40.000 tons), is explained by two principal reasons. The first lies in the traditional propulsion of the Aircraft carrier n°2 (Pa 2) which, contrary to the nuclear power, requires important fuel reserves. These last must make it possible the ship to carry out one week of intensive operations without any supply. The second explanation to the profit of weight holds in the difference in use of the French and British air groups. Traditionally, the national Navy further pushes maintenance and maintenance from the apparatuses to the sea what, there still, requires place.

Reduced crew of 20%

Longer than its predecessor and 9 meters broader on the level of the flight deck, Pa 2 22.5 meters will present a draught of 11.5 meters, against 9.5 meters for the CDG. The future building will be able to embark 40 aircraft, including 32 Rafale Marine. Its armament, as envisaged in the studies given to the navy, envisages two launchers Sylver (against four for the CDG) and a light artillery, of 20 or 30 Misters This armament will be supplemented by an electronic system of war, in which academies measurements are planned for chaff launchers.

Propelled by four electric motors and two gas turbines, the aircraft carrier will be able to sail at 25 knots, against 27 initially envisaged. Its crew will include/understand 900 sailors of the edge, 650 men for the air group and a state major embarked of 100 people. Compared to the Charles of Gaulle, the profit as a personnel is 15% (20% without the state major).

After the review of design with the customer, DCN and Thales hope for a notification for the continuation of the detailed studies and the first orders of large equipment at the end of 2006 or at the beginning of 2007. The electoral expiries envisaged the next year will be determining for this program exceeding 2 billion euros and whose order must intervene at the end of 2007.

Mer et marine (Googletranslation)

Spec sheet of proposed PA 2 CVF (FR)

Quite formidable.

 

[contedicavour]

It seems that DCN/Thales has proposed a 75,000 tonne CVF PA 2 carrier for the Marine Nationale.

Googletranslated.



Spec sheet of proposed PA 2 CVF (FR)

Quite formidable.

Yes, quite formidable. Altough I wonder how such a programme will be compatible with the defence budgets available. There are already fights between DCN and the Defence Ministry on the cost of the Barracuda SSNs that should replace in the 2010s the Rubis class. The 3rd and 4th Horizons have been cut, all of the planned 60 Rafale Marine haven't been ordered or funded yet, and I'm not even mentioning the cost of integrating M51 nuclear missiles aboard the first 3 SSBNs. In parallel, the Navy is renewing its entire escort force with the FREMMs, only 8 of which are ordered so far vs 17 planned.

cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

Yes, quite formidable. Altough I wonder how such a programme will be compatible with the defence budgets available. There are already fights between DCN and the Defence Ministry on the cost of the Barracuda SSNs that should replace in the 2010s the Rubis class. The 3rd and 4th Horizons have been cut, all of the planned 60 Rafale Marine haven't been ordered or funded yet, and I'm not even mentioning the cost of integrating M51 nuclear missiles aboard the first 3 SSBNs. In parallel, the Navy is renewing its entire escort force with the FREMMs, only 8 of which are ordered so far vs 17 planned.

cheers

I know, I know. It is still a proposal, but I don't see any competing ones. Then they would be buried in variants of this proposal, ie some flexibility.

MN wíll have to order long lead items within 2007, so we may well know soon enough.

 

[contedicavour]

I know, I know. It is still a proposal, but I don't see any competing ones. Then they would be buried in variants of this proposal, ie some flexibility.

MN wíll have to order long lead items within 2007, so we may well know soon enough.

Yes let's see ! Especially with presidential elections coming up in France and the usual priority given to social/health/education spending increases and promises of keeping the budget deficit under control.
I think the French will have their new huge carrier, it is a matter of national pride, but they will have to reduce spending elsewhere, or preserve number of ships while seriously reducing the embarked weapons. One or the other.

cheers

 

[adsH]

I understand completely. The Royal Navy has seen delays to Darings 7&8, as well as main gate of CVF, so I can sympathise perfectly. We really need those ships, as well as a firm project to replace our frigates over the next two decades.

Do you believe we will be replacing a large part of our Frigate fleet, i was under the impression that RN was more in favor of Type 45 classes coupled with Less platforms (really an MOD/[DSTL] thinking)

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

There are already fights between DCN and the Defence Ministry on the cost of the Barracuda SSNs that should replace in the 2010s the Rubis class.

I wish they will finally make up their minds, since Rubis class is becoming a bit old... and have no ground strike capabilities.

I think the French will have their new huge carrier, it is a matter of national pride, but they will have to reduce spending elsewhere, or preserve number of ships while seriously reducing the embarked weapons.

That is why I'm affraid that we will never have new SSNs, their developments could be jeopardize like the development of the Rafale in its time...
I can hardly imagine that a rubis SSN will still be operationnal in 2020...

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Do you believe we will be replacing a large part of our Frigate fleet, i was under the impression that RN was more in favor of Type 45 classes coupled with Less platforms (really an MOD/[DSTL] thinking)

With FSC scrapped, there won't be anything happening soon. A new design will take a while - construction won't start until sometime next decade.

There has been a proposal to use the T-45 as a base for the new frigates, replacing the advanced AAW systems with personal defence, anti-ship capabilities, etc. It might make sense in terms of being able to use the expertise gained from the current building project.

However this is just a suggestion, so anything can happen. Remember the RN is already in a bit of a sticky situation over no Darings 7&8 yet and the CVF being delayed - we'll be sticking with the T-22s and T-23s for some time. But of course we need the frigates to be replaced over the next decade - they won't last forever.

I'm not sure if that was what you were getting at - you might have to re-phrase your question.

 

[contedicavour]

I wish they will finally make up their minds, since Rubis class is becoming a bit old... and have no ground strike capabilities.


That is why I'm affraid that we will never have new SSNs, their developments could be jeopardize like the development of the Rafale in its time...
I can hardly imagine that a rubis SSN will still be operationnal in 2020...

The Rubis class is supposed to be deleted between 2012 and 2022. Any delay in Barracuda programme risks reducing the number of SSNs in the fleet.
One could say, however, that given the much larger Barracudas' better equipment, you don't need 6 Barracudas to replace 6 Rubis...

I think France will have its 2nd carrier, at least 4 Barracuda SSNs, but may not order all of the 17 FREMMs. The GP/land-attack FREMMs will be replacing the small A69 corvettes after all (a 5,700 ton ship replacing a 1,500 ton corvette... ). The biggest weakness for tomorrow's French Navy will probably be AAW for ships not accompanied by the carriers. Only 2 ships with Aster 30s is a bit short. For the rest, the French Navy will be better than today's, even if with less ships.

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

With FSC scrapped, there won't be anything happening soon. A new design will take a while - construction won't start until sometime next decade.

There has been a proposal to use the T-45 as a base for the new frigates, replacing the advanced AAW systems with personal defence, anti-ship capabilities, etc. It might make sense in terms of being able to use the expertise gained from the current building project.

However this is just a suggestion, so anything can happen. Remember the RN is already in a bit of a sticky situation over no Darings 7&8 yet and the CVF being delayed - we'll be sticking with the T-22s and T-23s for some time. But of course we need the frigates to be replaced over the next decade - they won't last forever.

I'm not sure if that was what you were getting at - you might have to re-phrase your question.

The T22 Batch3s will be replaced by either simplified Type 45s or by adapted FREMMs. Besides, replacing the relatively big Type 22 Batch 3 (with flag staff aboard, 150 metres long) with smaller platforms wouldn't make much sense, unless this "mini-flagship" role is passed on to the Darings.

cheers

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

The T22 Batch3s will be replaced by either simplified Type 45s or by adapted FREMMs.

FREMM isn't a likely option from what I've heard. It'll be a T-45 baseline or something new. And the timescale for replacement is currently unknown.

 

[contedicavour]

FREMM isn't a likely option from what I've heard. It'll be a T-45 baseline or something new. And the timescale for replacement is currently unknown.

well, at least some time ago FREMMs were being investigated. Probably as a way to make sure British shipbuilders lower cost estimates for a scaled down Type 45 ...

cheers

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

well, at least some time ago FREMMs were being investigated. Probably as a way to make sure British shipbuilders lower cost estimates for a scaled down Type 45 ...

cheers

Well the bean-counters wil investigate any option to begin with. But realistically joining any European naval project like that after Horizon won't happen for a while. You guys always want something too different from us.

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

One could say, however, that given the much larger Barracudas' better equipment, you don't need 6 Barracudas to replace 6 Rubis...

IMHO, we need to replace 6 rubis by 6 barracuda, it is more a matter of upkeep and major overhaul than a matter of weaponry since we have to ensure the same disponibility for operations... So 4 Barracuda is not enough to have at least 4 SSNs in the same time at sea...

The biggest weakness for tomorrow's French Navy will probably be AAW for ships not accompanied by the carriers.

The Fremms with their Aster 15 will still be better than our old destroyers with their Crotale !
And lets remember that our old AAW destroyer only employ SM-1 MR missiles..., that's a pitty! (in comparison, in the US fleet, even a small FFG-7 has SM-1 onboard...).
Then, the delivery of Horizon AAW destroyers is going to be a small revolution! (BTW, I have seen photos of the Forbin sea trials, it's a pretty well ship.)

For the rest, the French Navy will be better than today's, even if with less ships.

And I hope so, if not, why I have joined the Navy? ;-)

 

[contedicavour]

IMHO, we need to replace 6 rubis by 6 barracuda, it is more a matter of upkeep and major overhaul than a matter of weaponry since we have to ensure the same disponibility for operations... So 4 Barracuda is not enough to have at least 4 SSNs in the same time at sea...


The Fremms with their Aster 15 will still be better than our old destroyers with their Crotale !
And lets remember that our old AAW destroyer only employ SM-1 MR missiles..., that's a pitty! (in comparison, in the US fleet, even a small FFG-7 has SM-1 onboard...).
Then, the delivery of Horizon AAW destroyers is going to be a small revolution! (BTW, I have seen photos of the Forbin sea trials, it's a pretty well ship.)


And I hope so, if not, why I have joined the Navy? ;-)

On SSNs, I understand your point. But it is becoming more and more difficult to maintain fleet numbers when every new generation costs more than twice the ship it is replacing

On Forbin, yes I LOVE the Horizon class (I posted pictures of Andrea Doria on the gallery). Its Aster15/30s + EMPAR are perfect for our fleets' needs, though somebody will still say that a Burke Flight IIA SPY-1D + SM2 III + ESSM is still a bit more powerful.

Regarding AAW, while the picture may be improving from today's, the overall situation will remain weak... 2 DDG Horizon with Aster15/30 and 17 FREMMs with Aster 15 only (because of short range Herakles) are probably not enough to escort De Gaulle and the future CVF, not to mention other overseas missions without the support of a carrier.
That's why we put EMPAR on the FREMM, plus A50 VLS to house Aster 30 if needed. Given the central/eastern Mediterranean/Persian Gulf threat scenario, the Italian Navy is very worried about AAW capability.

Vive la Marine Nationale aussi en tout cas, tout cela n'est qu'une critique constructive bien sûr

 

[Whiskyjack]

On SSNs, I understand your point. But it is becoming more and more difficult to maintain fleet numbers when every new generation costs more than twice the ship it is replacing

If you use your trusty excel spreadsheet and take $1 and then add 3% inflation over 25 years then it will become $2. So in reality your $2 is worth the $1 of 25 years ago.

This assumes that inflation runs an average of 3% and that your economy is also growing by at least the same amount.

So the issue then become is the country in question spending the same amount proportionately now as 25 years ago. The answer to that I think would be no for most western countries.

 

[Sea Toby]

I was under the impression when the last two Mk13 SM-1MR equipped destroyers were paid off, France would order two more Horizon destroyers. I cannot imagine a second aircraft carrier without another two Forbins for escorts. France may be able to configure another smaller AWD design from the new frigates, much like they did before. But this design will not be able to carry the number of missiles the Forbins do.

It appears the United Kingdom is rethinking its fleet too. They have been stuck at 6 Darings for a long while now. While I doubt whether any of their new frigates will be designed as smaller AWDs, the bulk of the new frigates will have general purpose capabilities. For economic reasons, it might not be a bad idea to configure a few of these for air warfare duties.