Budget cuts in European Navies

[Big-E]

Since 2000 the russian defence spending has quadrupled, and is set to go up yet again with in the next 2 years, at the moment the funding is seen as adaquate to fit the units they have.

Right now a borey cost's roughly the same as a delta SSBN and also will be cheaper to maintain eventualy eliminating them and the very expencive typhoons.

by 2020 its predicted that the russian defence buget will have incrased to around 33% of GDP at the moment it sits around 12% so it a big hike.

This is what ive read and told so its not gospel and figures are rough.

Out of all these defense spending raises they have yet to purchase many new platforms. Most orders end up going for export. The funding is not adequate for the platforms they have. They can't even pay the electric bills for their naval bases.

The Typhoons have been decomed since 04'

Russia will never spend 33% of GDP on defense.

 

[KAPITAIN]

"Out of all these defense spending raises they have yet to purchase many new platforms. Most orders end up going for export. The funding is not adequate for the platforms they have. They can't even pay the electric bills for their naval bases.

The Typhoons have been decomed since 04'

Russia will never spend 33% of GDP on defense."

I highly beg to differ, three of the six typhoons have been decommissioned, TK208 TK20 TK17 remain active northern fleet at zapadnya litsa.

Most platforms built are half and half roughly for export, in the last year or two the russians have purchased one borey with two building one lada with two more building one sevdvinsk and one building, three akula's (gepard being paid late), as well as new frigates and also patrol vessels.

Hardly nothing, not to mention recent design authorisation for the next generation carriers.

Russia wont spedn that much just yet in 20 or 30 years maybe they still see the west as enamy so they will keep a big navy for defence but a navy on cold war level wont happen for a long time if ever again.

One very recent picture of a typhoon this was taken from a news clip back in november 2005 doesnt look paid off to me

A very much active TK 20 here this picture is only a year old infact was taken in august 2005

Picture taken january 2006

Taken jan 2006

Need any more proof?

 

[KAPITAIN]

Oh yeah i forgot they dont pay electric bills they acctualy wire up to nuclear submarines and heck i aint joking either!

An officer and his team was awarded for it for using thier innisative and skills to help out the people of murmansk in winter because all electric had failed because of the ice and snow.

 

[KAPITAIN]

"Just curious. But what was the average age of the various sub types in 1991, 1995 and 2006. That is, if you have the numbers at hand."

It is a bit sad to note that at the time of the collapse the soviet union was still no match for america the average age of a submarine was 24 years.

K3 the first submarine built in 1950's was active in 1990 paying off in 1991 as far back as 1983 the crews had reported serious problems with leaks malfunctions and what not, the soviets still had the belief the americans were coming and wanted to keep every submarine and ship it could at sea no matter what.

 

[Big-E]

Need any more proof?

Yeah, show me pictures of her loading SLBMs. These subs are unarmed.

 

[Big-E]

Oh yeah i forgot they dont pay electric bills they acctualy wire up to nuclear submarines and heck i aint joking either!

An officer and his team was awarded for it for using thier innisative and skills to help out the people of murmansk in winter because all electric had failed because of the ice and snow.

The naval base in Vladivostok keeps getting her electricity shut off b/c they don't pay the bills. If the Russian navy is in such great financial shape then why do towns have to adopt a ship to send them food and supplies?

 

[KAPITAIN]

Well of course they will be empty at a pier, standard proceadure indicates that all missiles and torpedos are to be removed from any vessel after docking and they are to be placed in storage for saftey reasons.

TK208 in the white sea january this year firing a missile hows that?

Also that adoption thing yes its true but the further east you go the poorer they are, sad but true.

The funding is just adaquate its not exceptional not great not even good just adaquate, the russians as we know have had a bad time and also the reason the power keeps getting cut off is yes because they A dont pay thier bills and B comes from three unreliable power stations.

Also the adoption thing is only half to do with the millatery adopt a ship programme is mainly through a merchant or auxilary vessel.

Also come to think of it i have a video of a firing that was done this year back in january il grab some stills when i get time.

 

[Big-E]

Well of course they will be empty at a pier, standard proceadure indicates that all missiles and torpedos are to be removed from any vessel after docking and they are to be placed in storage for saftey reasons.

TK208 in the white sea january this year firing a missile hows that?

The Donskoi is a trials ship for the Bulava, she will never go on patrol again. All the rest have been withdrawn and are awaiting defueling to be scrapped.

 

[KAPITAIN]

I dont mean to be rude but have you ever been to a russian naval base? ever been on board a russian nuclear submarine? ever spoken to russian naval officers and enlisted? i think thats the diffrence between us i have, my stepfather was soviet navy and after living with him for 13 years and also acctualy going to these places i do have a fair idea about what is there.

As for the submarines:

TK17 is due to pay off 2006 about june time
TK20 is due to pay off 2007
TK208 is due to pay off 2008

this is TK20 and crew member this year the submarine was readying for patrol.

Back end of TK20 in 2004 now why in gods name would you spen a few million on a repaint and also other maintinance when your going to scrap it?

Close up of TK17 in december 2004 returning home from deployment.

This is all three typhoons that remain tied up at pier TK20 TK208 TK13




"The Typhoon ballistic missile nuclear-powered (SSBN) submarines are the largest submarines ever to be built. They were constructed at the Severodvinsk Shipyard, on the White Sea near Archangel. The first of the six members of the class to be commissioned was TK 208 in 1981, followed by TK 202 in 1983, TK 12 in 1984, TK 13 in 1985, TK 17 in 1987 and TK 20 in 1989. The submarines were stationed with the Russian Northern Fleet at Litsa Guba.

Of the six, only TK 17 and TK 20 are operational. TK 208 was relaunched following refit in 2002 and is being used as a trials ship. TK 12 and TK 13 are decommissioned, waiting to be scrapped. With assistance from the United States, through the Co-operative Threat Reduction Program, TK 202 has had its nuclear fuel removed by US funded processing facilities and converted into forms suitable for long term storage or re-use. The UK has also agreed to take part in the dismantling of Russia's decommissioned nuclear submarines."

From naval technology

By 2004 the three remaining project 941 (Akula) subs assigned to the 19th division of the Northern Fleet were still armed with the D-19 missiles.

Global security


I have other pictures but i cannot post them here, i know your going to just plainly arguee this because its a forum and you dont want to look as if you have been beaten, but im telling you now i do know exactly whats what in the russian navy, ive been there and seen it first hand ive even lived it i think thats more than what youve done sir.

You a defence analyst so your always right, well no sir i dont think in fact i know your not on this one i can only quote from public sources because the pictures and what not i have i cant put them here.

Regards sir

 

[Big-E]

I dont mean to be rude but have you ever been to a russian naval base? ever been on board a russian nuclear submarine? ever spoken to russian naval officers and enlisted? i think thats the diffrence between us i have, my stepfather was soviet navy and after living with him for 13 years and also acctualy going to these places i do have a fair idea about what is there.

So your step-father was in the Soviet Navy, well that explains your attitude about this subject.

My experiences with the Russian Navy include:

1) In 02' I had the opportunity to CROSSPOL, US 7th Fleet and RU PAC-FLT. My stay at Vladivostok was a nightmare. We had no power, no hot water, our food tasted like tough chicken yet it was supposed to be lamb-chops. I discussed our condition with a sailor who spoke English rather well (I didn't expect it) and said that this was a good day! Sergei had many friends who committed suicide. He spoke of sailors stripping ships of materials to feed their families. He said he couldn't wait to get out of the service, he said he tried everything to get a deferment but his family didn't have enough money. We quickly became friends and after I left we started a correspondence.

2) Sometime around late October/early November of 04' as part of the ENTBATGRU detatched to 2nd Fleet operations in the North Atlantic; I was talking to the COMMS officer about going home and an urgent message was recieved. I was told that the Admiral Kuznetzov (carrying out exercises) had sent a distress call b/c she was taking on water. The Peter the Great had been contacted and said no assitance was required. The CCDG-12 decided that we should check it out. By the time we got there we saw on oil slick 3 miles long. We thought she had sunk.


3) Last year I went to Latvia for a cheap vacation and I met up with my friend Sergei who lived in St. Petersburg. He had just finished his 3yr conscription leaving service from the Northern Fleet. We had a blast in Riga and went to visit his family in St. Petersburg, now thats a beautiful city!!! We decided to go up the Kola (by train) to see some of the war/muesems. The train was packed with sailors, once Sergei told them I was in the USN they asked me more questions than I could shake a stick at. They were shocked when I told them how much I make. They said they could live off one of my paychecks for a year!! While in Murmansk I asked if we could visit his base at Severomorsk. He said no way that was going to happen, it was a closed town and you needed a special "outsvise" that required connections to NOR command. Sergei couldn't even get one and he just got out of the service!

Thus concludes my experience with the Russian Navy. So you have been to these places in the last few years? It's a totally different world from Soviet days. Have I talked to officers? no, they always have a partisan view anyway, I have talked to conscript sailors who make up the back-bone of the fleet and their condition is deplorable. They don't serve or train long enough to become proficient with the systems they operate. Seeing PAC-FLT at Vladivostok was enough to turn my stomach.

As for the submarines:

TK17 is due to pay off 2006 about june time
TK20 is due to pay off 2007
TK208 is due to pay off 2008

this is TK20 and crew member this year the submarine was readying for patrol.

Back end of TK20 in 2004 now why in gods name would you spen a few million on a repaint and also other maintinance when your going to scrap it?

Close up of TK17 in december 2004 returning home from deployment.

This is all three typhoons that remain tied up at pier TK20 TK208 TK13

These pictures mean nothing, there are no dates or places. No captions means they are part of a photo-album. Besides that it proves nothing. They could all be of TK 208 (which is a test ship) or they could be old shots.

"The Typhoon ballistic missile nuclear-powered (SSBN) submarines are the largest submarines ever to be built. They were constructed at the Severodvinsk Shipyard, on the White Sea near Archangel. The first of the six members of the class to be commissioned was TK 208 in 1981, followed by TK 202 in 1983, TK 12 in 1984, TK 13 in 1985, TK 17 in 1987 and TK 20 in 1989. The submarines were stationed with the Russian Northern Fleet at Litsa Guba.

Of the six, only TK 17 and TK 20 are operational. TK 208 was relaunched following refit in 2002 and is being used as a trials ship. TK 12 and TK 13 are decommissioned, waiting to be scrapped. With assistance from the United States, through the Co-operative Threat Reduction Program, TK 202 has had its nuclear fuel removed by US funded processing facilities and converted into forms suitable for long term storage or re-use. The UK has also agreed to take part in the dismantling of Russia's decommissioned nuclear submarines."

From naval technology

This source is not current.

By 2004 the three remaining project 941 (Akula) subs assigned to the 19th division of the Northern Fleet were still armed with the D-19 missiles.

Global security

I asked Sergei about the Typhoons weapons status and he told me "that was classified" but if I wanted to know more about the truth read Admiral. Gennady Suchkov and his complaints. He was wrongly convicted so he spilled the beans about the Typhoons. BTW your source from global security doesn't include the update from May of that year.

"On 24 May 2004 it was reported that. . . navy chief Adm. Vladimir Kuroyedov had ordered the navy to decommission the remaining three Typhoon-class submarines. . .the Severstal carried only 10 missiles, while the other two are unarmed."

I have other pictures but i cannot post them here, i know your going to just plainly arguee this because its a forum and you dont want to look as if you have been beaten, but im telling you now i do know exactly whats what in the russian navy, ive been there and seen it first hand ive even lived it i think thats more than what youve done sir.

You a defence analyst so your always right, well no sir i dont think in fact i know your not on this one i can only quote from public sources because the pictures and what not i have i cant put them here.

You have other pictues Are they classified? b/c every one you posted I found during a google image search. Are your sources classified as well? The classified data on these subs was spilled 2 years ago.

As for the state of the Russian navy, if Americans and EU citizens have to spend billions of their tax dollars to defuel the rust yard at Kola then the Russian fleet does not have the funds she needs. If I make more in a month than a Russian sailor makes in a year they do not have the funds they need. If they can't keep power at their bases b/c they can't pay their bills they do not have the funds they need. If they can't feed the sailors and families they don't have the funds they need. The problem with the fleet is they try to operate platforms that they can't maintain and do so with conscript sailors. Doing so leads to disasters and we have seen many, if this continues many more lives will be lost. It's exactly your Soviet superior attitude that gets people killed on the high seas. This is a different era than the Cold War, let it go friend. Take a step back and think about the men who have to operate these vessles.

 

[KAPITAIN]

You are are quite correct, it is a poor force and i have heard about the kuznetsov incident ok i found it funny but its not the point.

I do agree with you that those pictures can be found on google and are on my personaly album, however i do have some i cannot post.

As for kurdyov (spelt it wrong for a reason) he says something and does something else he is an arrogant ********* he said he said that the Peter the great was about to explode, funnily enough he only said it because he had a grude on the captain of that ship.

Bring back popov!

 

[contedicavour]

European Naval Airbus & needs for Russian Navy

First of all thks to "Grand Danois" for his post on the naval airbus. This could be a good start to creating some efficiencies in European defence spendings.

On the posts on the Russian Navy and the cuts it suffered : yes, they are massive. However, among Russia's armed forces, the Navy is by far the least useful. Recent conflicts concern the Caucasus region or the central Asian ex-USSR republics. That's where the army and the air force are still losing men and equipment every day (patrolling Grozny or the mountain valleys of the Fergana Valley...).
What role aircraft carriers or tens of SSBNs and SSNs may have for Russia beyond playing superpower status versus the US, one can hardly say... If Putin's priorities do include showing the flag around in sensitive areas such as the Indian Ocean or the Mediterranean, then I suggest he starts by keeping the few remaining Sovremmeny and Udaloy destroyers operational and by equipping the Black Sea fleet with something more than obsolete Kara and Kashin ships... 1 Moskva/slava cruiser is just not enough.

cheers

 

[KAPITAIN]

Those obsolete and down right unuseful ships as you so put it remain very useful they still have modern missiles and radar and what not they have all been updated just because the hull of the ship is 30 years old doesnt mean that the rest of it is obsolete, if you want to see obsolete try mexico or some where else.

Also submarines have been used for firing cruise missiles to terrorist targets in the caucuses the azov is a modern ship even if her hull isnt the thing about russian ships is that equipment is interchangable it just needs a refit.

Take a look at the kirov there were four of them each one when modified never came back to sea the same.

but did you even know the SS-N-22 is the most powerfullest anti ship missile in the world second is the SS-N-19 these missiles could easily mission kill a carrier.

 

[Big-E]

but did you even know the SS-N-22 is the most powerfullest anti ship missile in the world second is the SS-N-19 these missiles could easily mission kill a carrier.

If the carrier is by itself then yes but you will never find this. The missiles listed are highly observable on radar and if fired at any distance could be shot down either by AEGIS or fleet defenders. As you know a carrier is surrounded by ships to divert such missiles from targeting the carrier. The only real threat is if an Oscar sneaks into a CBG and launches inside the escort bubble. If they got that close they might as well save their missiles and use torpedoes.

 

[contedicavour]

Those obsolete and down right unuseful ships as you so put it remain very useful they still have modern missiles and radar and what not they have all been updated just because the hull of the ship is 30 years old doesnt mean that the rest of it is obsolete, if you want to see obsolete try mexico or some where else.

Also submarines have been used for firing cruise missiles to terrorist targets in the caucuses the azov is a modern ship even if her hull isnt the thing about russian ships is that equipment is interchangable it just needs a refit.

Take a look at the kirov there were four of them each one when modified never came back to sea the same.

but did you even know the SS-N-22 is the most powerfullest anti ship missile in the world second is the SS-N-19 these missiles could easily mission kill a carrier.

Hmm I beg to differ. I saw the Russian Black Sea Fleet squadron in Sicily recently and it was a really poor showing. Other than the Moskva (which by the way only has SS-N-12, neither the Shipwreck nor the Sunburn) which has technology dating back to the 80s, the Azov is not operational anymore after being a test ship to launch SA-N-6, and the other Kara cruiser is stuck in the early '70s with SA-N-3 AAW !!! The Kashin class DDG has SA-N-1 AAW !! Those are '60s vintage obsolete missiles.
By the way, AFAIK, there are no Russian subs capable of launching cruise missiles permanently stationed in the Black Sea Fleet, only one Kilo and one Tango (by the way not operational).
Modernizing the sole Kashin with SS-N-22 may indeed make it a threat, but the ship is almost 40 years old and with serious maintenance problems and without any serious AAW or CIWS defence.
The situation in the Black Sea is desperate. They really need reinforcements from Murmansk !! And very very fast...

One question : where did you get the information that a Russian SSN launched cruise missiles on the caucasus ? That sounds new to me.

cheers

 

[Big-E]

Those obsolete and down right unuseful ships as you so put it remain very useful they still have modern missiles and radar and what not they have all been updated just because the hull of the ship is 30 years old doesnt mean that the rest of it is obsolete, if you want to see obsolete try mexico or some where else.

The world is going AEGIS, without it, your obsolete.

 

[KAPITAIN]

Where did i get the info from my stepfather other than that im saying no more.

And Big E yes you are correct aegis is the way to go the black sea fleet is acctualy in poor state however the tango has paid off and Alrosa has been back at sea she was refitted i do have pictures of her in dry dock being refitted and also after.

Black sea fleet isnt a major fleet it never was the fleet was only realy there to look good and make the people living on that coast feel at ease with the presence of a soviet warship, however during war time it was seen that that region would be the last to be invaded and so a bigger emphasis was placed on the northern pacfic and baltic fleets with the caspian and black sea coming last in the runnings.

 

[Big-E]

with the caspian and black sea coming last in the runnings.

Can you please tell me why the Caspian flotilla contains 3 blue water frigates and 12 medium missle boats??? Any other force on the Sea could be dealt with RUs Coast Guard. When the navy is so hard pressed for funds why would they waste these ships and naval squadrons in a inland sea? And they continue to build up!

 

[KAPITAIN]

Can you please tell me why the Caspian flotilla contains 3 blue water frigates and 12 medium missle boats??? Any other force on the Sea could be dealt with RUs Coast Guard. When the navy is so hard pressed for funds why would they waste these ships and naval squadrons in a inland sea? And they continue to build up!

Well in recent years there has been alot of sabotage in these area's as you should know theres precious oil rigs out there and oil exploration, the frigates are only there realy to provide back bone and say get lost to would be sabatures, also the patrol craft are now obsolete.

Its also a job the coast gaurd is not tasked to do.

 

[Big-E]

Can you please tell me why the Caspian flotilla contains 3 blue water frigates and 12 medium missle boats??? Any other force on the Sea could be dealt with RUs Coast Guard. When the navy is so hard pressed for funds why would they waste these ships and naval squadrons in a inland sea? And they continue to build up!

Well in recent years there has been alot of sabotage in these area's as you should know theres precious oil rigs out there and oil exploration, the frigates are only there realy to provide back bone and say get lost to would be sabatures, also the patrol craft are now obsolete.

Its also a job the coast gaurd is not tasked to do.

Then what good is their coast guard? Don't you think frigates and ocean going missile boats are a bit of overkill to get rid of sabotuers?