Australian Army to increase by 2,600

[Whiskyjack]

I'd rather have Chinooks and C-130J's than Osprey's I think. Osprey's look like a nice idea but their range and performance is nothing special, compared to a C-130J and their lift capacity is nothing special compared to a CH-47D, let alone CH-47F OR a C-130J for that matter...

A few (6x) KC-130J-30 tankers, the existing 46x MRH-90's and 12-18 CH-47D/F's and 12-14 C-27J Spartans all fitted with permanent external A2A refuelling probes would suit ADF better, IMHO...

Yes I think you are probably right, looking at the comparitve performance.

Also as I mentioned above the Osprey really need to be tested before Australia even considered looking at it. To much risk otherwise.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Yes I think you are probably right, looking at the comparitve performance.

Also as I mentioned above the Osprey really need to be tested before Australia even considered looking at it. To much risk otherwise.

Yes, Osprey would seem to be "nice" to have in my opinion, but not good enough to cover all the roles that the RAAF/Army need to cover. The US is not in the same position thanks to it's preponderance of available assets (ie: over 500 Hercules, 180 C-17's, 140 new C-27 "equivalent" etc).

Australia whilst better off than many Countries in terms of defence funding, still can't afford everything that might be useful and has to make do with what it can afford in many areas... For what the Osprey can offer, I don't think it's in ADF's best interest to acquire it...

 

[Whiskyjack]

Yes, Osprey would seem to be "nice" to have in my opinion, but not good enough to cover all the roles that the RAAF/Army need to cover. The US is not in the same position thanks to it's preponderance of available assets (ie: over 500 Hercules, 180 C-17's, 140 new C-27 "equivalent" etc).

Australia whilst better off than many Countries in terms of defence funding, still can't afford everything that might be useful and has to make do with what it can afford in many areas... For what the Osprey can offer, I don't think it's in ADF's best interest to acquire it...

I agree, although I will add one qualifier;

If over the next decade the ADF find itself operating in a more Spec Ops type deployments. Something like the Osprey may be the looked at as offering the performance characteristics that the ADF may require to perform such missions, I also include the UK here as well. Just a thought and not for consideration in the near future.

Cheers

 

[Todjaeger]

Is raising the Regular Army by 2,600 expected to have an impacted on the Reserve forces? Also, is there a good reference on Australian Reserves? I've been able to find some listings for reserve battalions which also mentions if a unit is cav, infantry, etc. Nothing I've found indicates total number of reservists, or the approximate numbers & equipment found in the different units. And as I've read, the numbers/size of American units which I'm used to is somewhat different...

 

[Aussie Digger]

Is raising the Regular Army by 2,600 expected to have an impacted on the Reserve forces? Also, is there a good reference on Australian Reserves? I've been able to find some listings for reserve battalions which also mentions if a unit is cav, infantry, etc. Nothing I've found indicates total number of reservists, or the approximate numbers & equipment found in the different units. And as I've read, the numbers/size of American units which I'm used to is somewhat different...

Virtually every unit of the Australian Army is different though they share a basic "on paper" structure.

The "raising of the Army" is specifically referring to the regular army and will not directly impact on reserves, other than some equipment currently in use by regular units may be "cascaded down" as newer equipment is bought to expand the regular army (which for operational and economical reasons obviously gets the "pick" of the kit).

Most units in the Australian Army that actually have a website can be found here:

http://www.defence.gov.au/army/structure/units.htm

Details can be gleaned on unit structure, equipment, training activities etc.

The Australian reserve is completely different as I understand it from American reserve/National Guard units. For one thing, the training budgets are hideously low, the "readiness levels" are atrocious (no Australian reserve unit is considered available for operational deployment in less than 12 months) and they use quite different equipment, vehicles etc to the regular army, because of the cost of equipping all the units.

The reserve is designed to provide an expansion base for a war of national survival. As such it does not have a high priority with Army and Government.

As an example of this, even the low level of capability provided by the current reserve armoured units with their M113A1 APC's is being stripped from them and the vehicles are being replaced by 4x4 land rovers. This is officially because the M113A1 is obsolete. Never mind that a Land Rover 4x4 is FAR LESS capable than an M113, just mind the cost of acquiring a decent and capable new vehicle...

 

[icelord]

Virtually every unit of the Australian Army is different though they share a basic "on paper" structure.

The "raising of the Army" is specifically referring to the regular army and will not directly impact on reserves, other than some equipment currently in use by regular units may be "cascaded down" as newer equipment is bought to expand the regular army (which for operational and economical reasons obviously gets the "pick" of the kit).

Most units in the Australian Army that actually have a website can be found here:

http://www.defence.gov.au/army/structure/units.htm

Details can be gleaned on unit structure, equipment, training activities etc.

The Australian reserve is completely different as I understand it from American reserve/National Guard units. For one thing, the training budgets are hideously low, the "readiness levels" are atrocious (no Australian reserve unit is considered available for operational deployment in less than 12 months) and they use quite different equipment, vehicles etc to the regular army, because of the cost of equipping all the units.

The reserve is designed to provide an expansion base for a war of national survival. As such it does not have a high priority with Army and Government.

As an example of this, even the low level of capability provided by the current reserve armoured units with their M113A1 APC's is being stripped from them and the vehicles are being replaced by 4x4 land rovers. This is officially because the M113A1 is obsolete. Never mind that a Land Rover 4x4 is FAR LESS capable than an M113, just mind the cost of acquiring a decent and capable new vehicle...

Its true that the reserves get the rough end of the stick, but they do deploy on the odd occasion, Timor being one. The 3RAR commando company is i understand a listed reserve force, and not part of the Regular army, or perhaps its just a company thats reserve. A much bigger role does need to be looked at for Reserves, especially in this region, need i point to the grand history of the militia in papua?
A short while ago the Govt. announced a major budget boost for the reserves, so this may be the start of a better push for them, to increase their forces and improve equipment. But lets face it, most 'chokkos' don't see deployment as a possiblility when signing up, hell, i laughed when the question came to "would i be prepared to shoot someone", as this seems amusing when most reservists have little possiblity of seeing an enemy let alone shooting, unless in commandos.

The Aussie reserves are nothing like the US reserves or National guard, and are not a supplement to the regulars like above. They do provide padres, doctors and other specialists in times of need, such as aceh after Tsunami,plus pakistan and as a way of getting skilled people to operate once or twice a week for military people.

 

[Todjaeger]

The Australian reserve is completely different as I understand it from American reserve/National Guard units. For one thing, the training budgets are hideously low, the "readiness levels" are atrocious (no Australian reserve unit is considered available for operational deployment in less than 12 months) and they use quite different equipment, vehicles etc to the regular army, because of the cost of equipping all the units.

The reserve is designed to provide an expansion base for a war of national survival. As such it does not have a high priority with Army and Government.

Would it be safe to say then that the condition of the Reserves now, is similar to what the CMF was like at the start of WWII? Excepting special units like the 1st Cdo Regiment, of course. As for the readiness of US Reserve/Guard units, we've started to find that the pace of US operations is taxing what we have available with some units (40% if I remember correctly) being considered unready without significant time given.

 

[icelord]

Would it be safe to say then that the condition of the Reserves now, is similar to what the CMF was like at the start of WWII? Excepting special units like the 1st Cdo Regiment, of course. As for the readiness of US Reserve/Guard units, we've started to find that the pace of US operations is taxing what we have available with some units (40% if I remember correctly) being considered unready without significant time given.

Perhaps a big error in planning was changing Kapooka. until june the reserve and regulars were in the same platoons, for 45 days and everyone worked together to get through it,and after march out, chokkos go home to their regiments, and regs would move to Alpha company for the new Advanced Training module, about 45 days i think. nows its only 28 days for reserves, and they go home to finish the rest of training, without a march out i believe, while regs continue their 45, march out then go to Alpha. it pretty much cuts the training up and limits standard training across the regs and reserves. The pre-june system worked, their was no distinction between the 2 types of entry, and it just seems a little bit stupid. Someone in HQ most likely went number crunching and worked out this...brilliant scheme.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Its true that the reserves get the rough end of the stick, but they do deploy on the odd occasion, Timor being one. The 3RAR commando company is i understand a listed reserve force, and not part of the Regular army, or perhaps its just a company thats reserve. A much bigger role does need to be looked at for Reserves, especially in this region, need i point to the grand history of the militia in papua?
A short while ago the Govt. announced a major budget boost for the reserves, so this may be the start of a better push for them, to increase their forces and improve equipment. But lets face it, most 'chokkos' don't see deployment as a possiblility when signing up, hell, i laughed when the question came to "would i be prepared to shoot someone", as this seems amusing when most reservists have little possiblity of seeing an enemy let alone shooting, unless in commandos.

The Aussie reserves are nothing like the US reserves or National guard, and are not a supplement to the regulars like above. They do provide padres, doctors and other specialists in times of need, such as aceh after Tsunami,plus pakistan and as a way of getting skilled people to operate once or twice a week for military people.

A very odd occasion, in fact the very first deployment of an entire reserve sub-unit since WW2. 9RQR's deployment to the Soloman Islands last year was the other sub-unit reserve deployment that has occurred since WW2...

OTOH small numbers of "specialist" reserve personnel (Doctors, Nurses etc) have deployed on operations and will continue to do so.

Reserve units however are unlikely to deploy very often and when they do it will be long after the regular units deploy and only to low level operations. No reserve unit (even 1 Cmdo Regt) is able to deploy to a high intensity combat operation and it's arguable how many of our regular formations are either, but that's another gripe...

 

[icelord]

something new, Their was a big discussion not long ago about a bigger role for reserves, this will be an anti-terror Scenario, where Res. would be deployed in event of major attack, whether this be similar to 9/11 when National Guard was deployed to area around WTC, or perhaps locking down a city and aiding the police in searching for suspects. Hmm, would this last one be possible?

I know the Combat Engineer course contains a NBC module, so they would be perhaps used to contain any WMD attack. Infantry deploy for security, while other corps. also move in to support.

 

[Aussie Digger]

something new, Their was a big discussion not long ago about a bigger role for reserves, this will be an anti-terror Scenario, where Res. would be deployed in event of major attack, whether this be similar to 9/11 when National Guard was deployed to area around WTC, or perhaps locking down a city and aiding the police in searching for suspects. Hmm, would this last one be possible?

I know the Combat Engineer course contains a NBC module, so they would be perhaps used to contain any WMD attack. Infantry deploy for security, while other corps. also move in to support.

I think if such a situation occurred it would be an absolute cluster. I am a police officer in Australia and never have we exercised with Army. Our Comms are completely different and Army is neither trained nor well equipped for the type of operation you are forseeing.

I think the Army's main role in such a "support to the civilian authority" scenario would be logistical and mobility, as well as "bodies" for large scale search scenario's and possibly VCP's with police present to actually question people, given most soldiers complete lack of training and knowledge of legislation, case law and Court processes etc in relation to interviewing persons.

Given that Army has raised 7 "high readiness" companies within reserve brigades for these sort of operations, I doubt very much that even ALL of these deployed concurrently would be sufficient to "lock down" a major city such as Brisbane, Sydney or Melbourne. It would take the deployment of several brigades to achieve, in my opinion and Army is not equipped for that...

 

[old faithful]

implementation of a "martial law" situation in one of Australias major cities would be next to impossible.Soldiers are soldiers,and without police supervision,policeing would become out of hand.I dont think Military police would handle the situation even if they had numbers.Maybe attaching a cop to a rifle section could work,but i know as a section comder,if a situation arose,i would feel responsible for my section and over rule the cop if i thought nessasary.The end result would indeed be a cluster!

 

[icelord]

Hmm, it would be difficult to comprehend, but East Timor is an example of RAR being able to move into a chaotic situation and setting up road blocks, searching people and providing high protection escorts, extra armoured response to situations when required. For sydney, it would be difficult, but for a few suburbs, maybe not so. The response time would be slow though. Say someone set off bombs across the city, chaos would follow. would it not be safe to have highly trained, and level headed soldiers provide support and order. This is why i mentioned the role of CER, most state police have a few SPG and bomb squad, and Reg. CER are not in most cities, but reserve Squadrons are. Having NBC, along with bomb disposal could be useful, as well as door knocking infantry with CQC training, they would not be stupid enough to shoot first, ask questions later, and state law in this scenario might need to taught to Reserves if to go ahead, and as Aussie Digger pointed out, some training with State police. Maybe doctrine needs to train this, advanced riot control or road block security. highly controversial and dangerous i know, but after our state police command ability to control 3 riots went up a creek without a canoe or paddle, i don't exactly feel warm in having them calling the shots post attack, this doesn't reflect on the high quality officers we have, just the chaotic command.

 

[chargerRT]

Perhaps a big error in planning was changing Kapooka. until june the reserve and regulars were in the same platoons, for 45 days and everyone worked together to get through it,and after march out, chokkos go home to their regiments, and regs would move to Alpha company for the new Advanced Training module, about 45 days i think. nows its only 28 days for reserves, and they go home to finish the rest of training, without a march out i believe, while regs continue their 45, march out then go to Alpha. it pretty much cuts the training up and limits standard training across the regs and reserves. The pre-june system worked, their was no distinction between the 2 types of entry, and it just seems a little bit stupid. Someone in HQ most likely went number crunching and worked out this...brilliant scheme.

When i did my reserve's basic training(4/19 PWLH),it was only 2 weeks at pucca:shudder .that was in 1990.we did have a marching out parade tho...

 

[MG 3]

man what is australia trying to do. an addition of 2500 troops. well when we increase or decrease the mil we do it by 10,000 or more. 2500 dont even make a dent.

Mod edit: I think the others have addressed this adequately. Watch the Jingoism mate. In Australian and South Pacific terms, this is a large increase in capability. Comparing it to your own Country is juvenile and shows a distinct lack of insight into the strategic environment Australia faces as compared to that of Pakistan. Feel free to continue to contribute, but put a bit more thought into it. Cheers. AD.

 

[Waylander]

Woohooo.
That's something that definetly had to be said.

 

[Todjaeger]

man what is australia trying to do. an addition of 2500 troops. well when we increase or decrease the mil we do it by 10,000 or more. 2500 dont even make a dent.

Keep in mind the current size of the ADF is only around 53,000 personnel. This is spread across the RAN, RAAF and Army. 2,600 additional soldiers for Army is something like a 10% increase in the size of the Regular Army. For Australia, it is a fairly significant increase.

 

[icelord]

man what is australia trying to do. an addition of 2500 troops. well when we increase or decrease the mil we do it by 10,000 or more. 2500 dont even make a dent.

And your talking about the Best trained Regular Army in the world, You say 2500, thats 2500 more smart, efficent and level headed men ready to deploy anywhere anytime. Remember, it quality not quantity
We'd love 10,000 more, but we get 8,000 new recruits a year if its possible, and thats across the service and ranks, officer or general Entry, we're kinda pushing 2,500 as it is.

 

[Cootamundra]

man what is australia trying to do. an addition of 2500 troops. well when we increase or decrease the mil we do it by 10,000 or more. 2500 dont even make a dent.

How old are you?

Very revealing comment. I could say that you add 10,000 cause you need the numbers to make up for a lack of quality, but then I won't because that's not what we do here at DT...Think before you type.:lam

 

[chargerRT]

an old saying, "its not the size of the dog in the fight,its how much fight's in the dog".
:soldier