Its a pain in the ass, there the 1's that what you to work for them and the recruiting process isnt run very well, If i was going for any other job i would have told them to jam it by now, but ive got my heart set on joining, fingers cross mid year ill be in or close to joining. im not getting any younger so the quicker i get in the better it will be for me.It took 12mths from failure for OSB to getting to Cerberus even though i told them the day after get me there now and ill go the long road up to the top. For 9mths i called who ever had been palmed my app, and lucky for me my cousin was a recruiter for army at DFR Newcastle, so he'd get updates for me as well, yeah still took forever.:frown
And i doubt the training pipelines, they'd rather smash you through training, especially if techo, then put you in FSU West. you'll find the current DFR is a retarded system...O i have no love for them at all!
It seems the German military isn't too happy with the NH90
German Army Report Highlights NH90 Deficiencies - Defense News
Germany not happy with NH90 helicopter - UPI.com
I suppose some teething troubles are to be expected, but flimsy floors seems like a fairly basic error...
German Army Report Highlights NH90 Deficiencies - Defense News
Germany not happy with NH90 helicopter - UPI.com
It seems almost certain that the MRH90 has similar issues, and with so many on order the ADF really does need them to work well.
I suppose some teething troubles are to be expected, but flimsy floors seems like a fairly basic error...
Flimsy doors and other complains are common. A long time ago, the guys in my former infantry unit managed to damage one of Singapore's Super Puma doors - it's amazing what we grunts can break. The aircrew were giving us grunts the evil eye for the rest of the day.
I've read the links and IMHO, it's much ado about nothing (think of it as an airline customer survey form to improve usability). These types of mundane reports are often internally generated by most military organizations so as to enable the operators to make improvements and they can be quite detailed - it's just that lists of this sort is usually not leaked. There's also externally mounted guns that does not impact the number of seats on the military-off-the-shelf market but I suspect they brought it up as an issue as they may want to develop a German solution for that.
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winnyfield
New Member
Some of the complaints seem rather superficial. Lack of racks and flimsy seats .... half the time in a blackhawk there are no seats and your sitting on the floor.
OpinionNoted
Banned Member
half the time no seats in a blackhawk...why so?
Not sure about army birdies, but at this stage, the navy birdies are not to happy with the MRH90. could just be they have no idea what to expect with some aspects of the helo, and how to fix strange new problems. Theres no one to say, "this worked last time". With more experience and handling they'll begin to like it...hopefully:rel
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Because they have to do what they call "combat overloading" which is basically cram as many people into the helo as possible.
I don't expect things will change in this regard with the MRH-90 though, accepting of course that there are more seats available in the MRH-90...
Okay, I spent some time trawling the internet and found a little more info:
The NH90 has lightweight folding seats that can be arranged against the sides or along the centre.
http://www.avrosys.nu/aircraft/Heli/514-HKP14-SBC-PICT7926.jpg
They apparently aren't quite strong enough, but that's obviously fairly minor since it will be easy to swap them out with improved ones. I just hope the ADF gets it done under warranty.
The exit ramp and clearance issues can be seen in this picture:
http://www.avrosys.nu/aircraft/Heli/514-HKP14-SBC-PICT7936.jpg
The NH90 has a big tail that gets in the way, and there just isn't much room back there.
Not particularly critical, but it does look annoying. It seems to me that both ground and exit clearance could be helped simply by increasing the height of the rear gear slightly- that would tilt the tail up and give people a little more room as they move out. Not sure if that would be an easy modification, though.
I also found a post on another forum where someone mentioned the reported issues- no verification or official source, but it sounds consistent with what others are saying:
The problem with the ramp being unable to cope is supposedly due to the hinges cracking under load. The hinges will need to be replaced/redesigned, but it's not a major job. The floor is cracking under heavy use as well, and although that's obviously a bigger issue it's still fixable- heavier floor plating to spread the load is the most obvious solution.
In short, it does all seem fairly standard... I guess I just expected these things to be fixed before delivery...:
The NH90 has lightweight folding seats that can be arranged against the sides or along the centre.
http://www.avrosys.nu/aircraft/Heli/514-HKP14-SBC-PICT7926.jpg
They apparently aren't quite strong enough, but that's obviously fairly minor since it will be easy to swap them out with improved ones. I just hope the ADF gets it done under warranty.
The exit ramp and clearance issues can be seen in this picture:
http://www.avrosys.nu/aircraft/Heli/514-HKP14-SBC-PICT7936.jpg
The NH90 has a big tail that gets in the way, and there just isn't much room back there.
Not particularly critical, but it does look annoying. It seems to me that both ground and exit clearance could be helped simply by increasing the height of the rear gear slightly- that would tilt the tail up and give people a little more room as they move out. Not sure if that would be an easy modification, though.
I also found a post on another forum where someone mentioned the reported issues- no verification or official source, but it sounds consistent with what others are saying:
The problem with the ramp being unable to cope is supposedly due to the hinges cracking under load. The hinges will need to be replaced/redesigned, but it's not a major job. The floor is cracking under heavy use as well, and although that's obviously a bigger issue it's still fixable- heavier floor plating to spread the load is the most obvious solution.
In short, it does all seem fairly standard... I guess I just expected these things to be fixed before delivery...
:I can see the problem with the door gun issue as being more of an impracticality of co-locating the gun system in the doorway which doesn't seem big enough to me, for this addition.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
The NH-90 has a dedicated load-masters seat which does not block the doorway and yet allows a gun to be carried on each side of the helo.
http://www.mi9.com/datawallpapers/data/19/1289/1157460357/nh-90-helicopter-wallpaper_1024x768.jpg
Cheers
AD
Edit: if you copy that link into a new window, it shows a much larger view...
As usual, thanks for that clarification. From your response, I see that the initial reporting on the issue was even more misleading that I thought.
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A
Aussie Digger
Guest
There were some other WTF points in that report, but why bother getting upset? It's mainstream journalism who are attempting to create controversy to sell copy, using very the usual very poor or out-dated source material.As usual, thanks for that clarification. From your response, I see that the initial reporting on the issue was even more misleading that I thought.
I mean, come on. "Fast ropers", use the winch instead of a rope???
I don't know how other militaries do it, but the ADF uses good, plain old rope...
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmCuFogjAPg]YouTube - Royal Australian Navy helicopter fast-roping training[/ame]
Got video from work the other week of TAG fast roping on the fc'stle...very cool when underway. should have it next week for upload...
t68
Well-Known Member
Is there any news on the replacement for the LCM-8, last info is that they were looking into water jet landing craft or pump jet design.
How would water jet go when close inshore and picking up sand and seaweed thru the motors, obviously they could handle a small amount.
Source wiki (pump jet)
Advantages
Pump jets have some advantages over bare propellers for certain applications, usually related to requirements for high-speed or shallow-draft operations. These include:
Increasing the speed before the onset of capitation, due to the raised internal dynamic pressure.
•High power density (with respect to volume) of both the propulsor and the prime mover (since a smaller, higher-speed unit can be used)
•Protection of the rotating element and making operation safer around swimmers and aquatic life
•Improved shallow-water operations, since only the inlet needs to be submerged
•Increased maneuverability, by adding a steerable nozzle to create vectored thrust.
•Noise reduction resulting in a low sonar signature; this particular system has little in common with other pump-jet propulsor and is also known as "shrouded propeller configuration"; applications:
Submarines, for example the Royal Navy Trafalgar class and Astute class, the US Navy Seawolf class, the French Navy Triomphant class, and the Russian Navy Borei class..
Torpedoes, such as the Spearfish and MK.48 weapons.
Disadvantages
•Can be less efficient than a propeller at low speed
•More expensive
•Higher weight in boat due to entrained water
•Will not perform well if boat is heavier than the jet is sized for
•Can become clogged with debris e.g. seaweed.
Obviously with such a large craft the vectoring nozzles in the front will hit the beach, how will it overcome these problems or could they use some thing similar to a hover craft arrangement with large fans on the rear with out the air cushion or maybe go with some thing like the Russian Zubr class LCAC, do the US make some thing similar which could transport an MBT to the shoreline, over kill in our needs but it moves,
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zubr_class_LCAC"]Zubr class LCAC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Soviet_Pomornik_class.JPEG" class="image"><img alt="Soviet Pomornik class.JPEG" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Soviet_Pomornik_class.JPEG/300px-Soviet_Pomornik_class.JPEG"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/6/63/Soviet_Pomornik_class.JPEG/300px-Soviet_Pomornik_class.JPEG[/ame]
The Zubr landing craft has a cargo area of 400 square meters (4,300 sq ft), and a fuel capacity of 56 tons.It can carry three main battle tanks (up to 131 tonnes), or ten armored personnel carriers with 140 troops (up to 115 tonnes), or up to 500 troops (with 360 troops in the cargo compartment). At full displacement the ship is capable of negotiating up to 5-degree gradients on non-equipped shores and 1.6m-high vertical walls. The Zubr remains seaworthy in conditions up to Sea state 4. The vessel has a cruising speed of 30-40 knots
How would water jet go when close inshore and picking up sand and seaweed thru the motors, obviously they could handle a small amount.
Source wiki (pump jet)
Advantages
Pump jets have some advantages over bare propellers for certain applications, usually related to requirements for high-speed or shallow-draft operations. These include:
Increasing the speed before the onset of capitation, due to the raised internal dynamic pressure.
•High power density (with respect to volume) of both the propulsor and the prime mover (since a smaller, higher-speed unit can be used)
•Protection of the rotating element and making operation safer around swimmers and aquatic life
•Improved shallow-water operations, since only the inlet needs to be submerged
•Increased maneuverability, by adding a steerable nozzle to create vectored thrust.
•Noise reduction resulting in a low sonar signature; this particular system has little in common with other pump-jet propulsor and is also known as "shrouded propeller configuration"; applications:
Submarines, for example the Royal Navy Trafalgar class and Astute class, the US Navy Seawolf class, the French Navy Triomphant class, and the Russian Navy Borei class..
Torpedoes, such as the Spearfish and MK.48 weapons.
Disadvantages
•Can be less efficient than a propeller at low speed
•More expensive
•Higher weight in boat due to entrained water
•Will not perform well if boat is heavier than the jet is sized for
•Can become clogged with debris e.g. seaweed.
Obviously with such a large craft the vectoring nozzles in the front will hit the beach, how will it overcome these problems or could they use some thing similar to a hover craft arrangement with large fans on the rear with out the air cushion or maybe go with some thing like the Russian Zubr class LCAC, do the US make some thing similar which could transport an MBT to the shoreline, over kill in our needs but it moves,
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zubr_class_LCAC"]Zubr class LCAC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Soviet_Pomornik_class.JPEG" class="image"><img alt="Soviet Pomornik class.JPEG" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Soviet_Pomornik_class.JPEG/300px-Soviet_Pomornik_class.JPEG"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/6/63/Soviet_Pomornik_class.JPEG/300px-Soviet_Pomornik_class.JPEG[/ame]
The Zubr landing craft has a cargo area of 400 square meters (4,300 sq ft), and a fuel capacity of 56 tons.It can carry three main battle tanks (up to 131 tonnes), or ten armored personnel carriers with 140 troops (up to 115 tonnes), or up to 500 troops (with 360 troops in the cargo compartment). At full displacement the ship is capable of negotiating up to 5-degree gradients on non-equipped shores and 1.6m-high vertical walls. The Zubr remains seaworthy in conditions up to Sea state 4. The vessel has a cruising speed of 30-40 knots
t68
Well-Known Member
I can not find specs on the LCM-1E, but it is mentioned in a lot of articles.
So what happen to the water jet idea could not make it work for the tonnage required?
Will it be kept the same design or will they require modification like the lcm-8 such as,
LCM-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(See under Australian service)
The modifications of the vessels include an extended enclosed wheelhouse that included full galley facilities, chart table and storage space to aid in extended operations beyond the original design parameters. A water purification system allows the vessels to be somewhat independent for longer periods of time. A fully functioning toilet (head) and shower are also installed as part of the wheelhouse extensions, external provision for bedding is also include for the full crew complement.
Currently LCM-8 is administered by the Royal Australian Corps of Transport and one engineer from the Royal Australian Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (RAEME), will this still be the case in the future or will they taken over by the RAN?
Royal Australian Corps of Transport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
winnyfield
New Member
Seems like (my rudimentary spanish) the LCM-1E is similar to the LCM-8 in weight and dimensions. Able to accomodate a single MBT.
But, the LCM-1E :
- uses waterjets
- is faster 22 knots (light), 13.5 (loaded) vs 12/9 knots for the LCM-8
- greater range 190nm (342km) at economical speed
- shallower draft, 1m (loaded) vs 1.6m for the LCM-8
(Spanish Chamber of Commerce) The Australian government contracts Navantia to supply launch boats for their two LHD ships.
(Spanish wiki) LCM-1E - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre
Eurocopter rejects criticism of NH90 helicopter
It mentions several of the reported issues, basically stating that minor problems are to be expected at this point in development.
I can't help but feel it's a little odd to be bragging about 40 deliveries one minute, then falling back on the "it's not yet finished" excuse the next.
Still, the naval NFH is apparently also on schedule for delivery Q1 2010, so I'm sure we'll hear more about this in the future...
defence.professionals | defpro.com
It mentions several of the reported issues, basically stating that minor problems are to be expected at this point in development.
I can't help but feel it's a little odd to be bragging about 40 deliveries one minute, then falling back on the "it's not yet finished" excuse the next.
Still, the naval NFH is apparently also on schedule for delivery Q1 2010, so I'm sure we'll hear more about this in the future...