Australian Army Discussions and Updates

John Newman

The Bunker Group
More to the point, who pays and provides freebies to Kym Bergmann to write this stuff?
I agree with you about Kym.

I’m no fan of him or APDR, and yes he’s had a long reputation for ‘cash for comment’ in his publication (I’ve made that clear for many years).

But if the article is accurate, then it does appear to be a big waste.

Was any effort made to sell the fleet? At the very least was there an effort to sell back to Airbus as spares to sustain the global fleet of NH90s?

The other part of the article is his claim the two crashes were not mechanical problems, will we ever find out?

I’ve always agreed with the decision to replace them with new Blackhawks, but was it really necessary to permanently ground the fleet without the replacement being in service?
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I agree with you about Kym.

I’m no fan of him or APDR, and yes he’s had a long reputation for ‘cash for comment’ in his publication (I’ve made that clear for many years).

But if the article is accurate, then it does appear to be a big waste.

Was any effort made to sell the fleet? At the very least was there an effort to sell back to Airbus as spares to sustain the global fleet of NH90s?

The other part of the article is his claim the two crashes were not mechanical problems, will we ever find out?

I’ve always agreed with the decision to replace them with new Blackhawks, but was it really necessary to permanently ground the fleet without the replacement being in service?
KB certainly is an ambassador for the Taipan and Tiger helicopter.

With so much written about these two aircraft I still don't know if they were both complete junk or alternatively stella platforms plagued by politics leading to their demise.


Whatever that reality, the thought a seemingly good working aircraft of low hours in the Taipan could be broken down for no financial gain seems absolutely ridiculous.
Surely this cannot be true.
Surely the helicopter could of being gifted to other users.

The answer will be black or while.
Yes or no.

Will be very interested as to the answer, as I'm sure will other users of the platform

Cheers S
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I agree with you about Kym.

I’m no fan of him or APDR, and yes he’s had a long reputation for ‘cash for comment’ in his publication (I’ve made that clear for many years).

But if the article is accurate, then it does appear to be a big waste.

Was any effort made to sell the fleet? At the very least was there an effort to sell back to Airbus as spares to sustain the global fleet of NH90s?

The other part of the article is his claim the two crashes were not mechanical problems, will we ever find out?

I’ve always agreed with the decision to replace them with new Blackhawks, but was it really necessary to permanently ground the fleet without the replacement being in service?
One thing I feel people need to keep in mind is that the Australian MRH90 version of the NH90 TTH is that the Australian fitout might very well be different enough from other NH90 TTH operators that the aircraft are not particularly useful as a source of spares. It has been my understanding that the way the NH90 consortium has operated, the avionics fitout was customized per customer specification with different users having different companies provide some of the avionics and avionics integration. Something else to consider is that I suspect the Australian NH90 fleet is one of the older fleets, having entered service in December 2007, roughly the same time as deliveries were made to the Italian Army, about a year after the first NH90 deliveries were made (to Germany) and about four years before the first deliveries to the French Army and New Zealand. For those that recall, there had been a number of reported defects with some of the early production NH90's in German service, though some were reportedly issues encountered in prototype as opposed to production versions. It does however raise the specter of whether other users would really value (or be willing to devote the resources to ensure systems are up to spec) early production composite airframes that are now starting to get close to 15 years old, when the airframe components themselves would have been cast at a time when there apparently had been some design and/or QC issues. From my POV realistically the only value I would have in such airframes without extensive testing to ensure that there are no remaining design or production defects, would be for static ground testing/training.

Also from my POV, the fact that a 47th MRH90 was offered in lieu of paying the penalties/fines for failing to meet the Australian contract requirements should have been a major red flag that there was something wrong. The fact that someone (or perhaps a group) in gov't decided to accept the offer rather than receive the funds seems to have been a failure to either recognize or admit that mistakes had been made.

I’ve always agreed with the decision to replace them with new Blackhawks, but was it really necessary to permanently ground the fleet without the replacement being in service?
Short answer; Yes.

The MRH90 fleet in Army service was grounded following the fatal July 2023 crash which remains under investigation. At present it appears that the investigation will not be concluded until some time in 2024, and that at present it is expected that Australia will have received a dozen new UH-60 Black Hawks by the end of 2024. Given that there were a pair of Australian MRH90's in accidents this year, the first being a forced ditch back in March and then the fatal accident in July, questions would exist on whether the Australian helicopters are safe for service and these will remain until the investigations have determined the cause. At this point it does not seem likely that the cause or causes of the fatal accident will be known and any mitigation efforts completed before the MRH90's planned withdrawal from service in 2024. When one factors in efforts by NHI to reach a global availability rate of 50% in 2023, it is little wonder why Australia is not bothering to try and get it's Taipans back into the air before retiring them next year.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
KB certainly is an ambassador for the Taipan and Tiger helicopter.

With so much written about these two aircraft I still don't know if they were both complete junk or alternatively stella platforms plagued by politics leading to their demise.


Whatever that reality, the thought a seemingly good working aircraft of low hours in the Taipan could be broken down for no financial gain seems absolutely ridiculous.
Surely this cannot be true.
Surely the helicopter could of being gifted to other users.

The answer will be black or while.
Yes or no.

Will be very interested as to the answer, as I'm sure will other users of the platform

Cheers S
I will await the whole story.

The first thought that crossed my mind is with the widely publisised parts shortage what we are actually seeing us conversion to components which may well be more valuable and in greater demand than complete aircraft.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Hmmm......


If true, what a waste
Yep, for example NZ could've acquired some to alleviate our helo shortage and provide spares until we assess our needs in the future. It would be a medium term solution and I think the timeline for the NH90 MLU decision is around 2029 - 30. In a way I would like this rather than an acquisition of the UH-60M because if we went that way, we would be acquiring a capability, arguably, nearing obsolescence rather than waiting five - ten years and see what the US Army future rotary wing projects brings online.

However, at the AUNZ PMs meet yesterday the NZ PM spoke about more and closer interoperability between NZDF & ADF, meaning that we may move to the UH-60M and MH-60R, which would give us a common airframe for both RNZAF & RNZN. I would suspect that the NZ Army may move to using the Australia Army battlefield management system and other electronic systems.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Yep, for example NZ could've acquired some to alleviate our helo shortage and provide spares until we assess our needs in the future. It would be a medium term solution and I think the timeline for the NH90 MLU decision is around 2029 - 30. In a way I would like this rather than an acquisition of the UH-60M because if we went that way, we would be acquiring a capability, arguably, nearing obsolescence rather than waiting five - ten years and see what the US Army future rotary wing projects brings online.

However, at the AUNZ PMs meet yesterday the NZ PM spoke about more and closer interoperability between NZDF & ADF, meaning that we may move to the UH-60M and MH-60R, which would give us a common airframe for both RNZAF & RNZN. I would suspect that the NZ Army may move to using the Australia Army battlefield management system and other electronic systems.
I am not so certain that various iterations of the H-60 Black Hawk can be honestly described as nearing obsolescence. IIRC the US is planning on starting to acquire the next gen rotary airlifter starting in ~2030 but the planned retirement of the various H-60 lift helicopters is not until ~2045 for US service. It will be six to seven years or more before the first of the next gen helicopters becomes active in US service and it might be later still before any examples might become or be made available for export. It would likely be at least a decade before most countries might be able to get an order in to whatever the US is bringing into service, and that is also assuming that no programme difficulties are encountered which delay the replacement's entry into service, or even just outright cancellation. If there were existing examples already active in US service, there would be less risk, but right now I feel that trying to plan around what the US will be operating in the future is not a wise move.

If the timing were to work out for NZ that would be one thing, but to consider trying to keep a platform in service in the hope to join a future US programme... Me being me, I feel that NZ should take an honest look at it's own capability needs and then adjust platform procurement and upgrade programmes accordingly.

With that in mind, I do rather wonder what a platform like the H225M might be like in terms of cost, availability and of course the support and operating costs pfh.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I am not so certain that various iterations of the H-60 Black Hawk can be honestly described as nearing obsolescence. IIRC the US is planning on starting to acquire the next gen rotary airlifter starting in ~2030 but the planned retirement of the various H-60 lift helicopters is not until ~2045 for US service. It will be six to seven years or more before the first of the next gen helicopters becomes active in US service and it might be later still before any examples might become or be made available for export. It would likely be at least a decade before most countries might be able to get an order in to whatever the US is bringing into service, and that is also assuming that no programme difficulties are encountered which delay the replacement's entry into service, or even just outright cancellation. If there were existing examples already active in US service, there would be less risk, but right now I feel that trying to plan around what the US will be operating in the future is not a wise move.

If the timing were to work out for NZ that would be one thing, but to consider trying to keep a platform in service in the hope to join a future US programme... Me being me, I feel that NZ should take an honest look at it's own capability needs and then adjust platform procurement and upgrade programmes accordingly.

With that in mind, I do rather wonder what a platform like the H225M might be like in terms of cost, availability and of course the support and operating costs pfh.
I was looking to the future when new advanced rotary wing and tilt wing capabilities become available. Unlike Australia, NZ tends to keep capabilities for 30+ years before upgrading them, so if we acquired Blackhawks in the 2029 - 34 period, we would not look to replace them until 2060 -2070. By waiting the tens years we would be in a far better position to move to new capabilities.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Yep, for example NZ could've acquired some to alleviate our helo shortage and provide spares until we assess our needs in the future. It would be a medium term solution and I think the timeline for the NH90 MLU decision is around 2029 - 30. In a way I would like this rather than an acquisition of the UH-60M because if we went that way, we would be acquiring a capability, arguably, nearing obsolescence rather than waiting five - ten years and see what the US Army future rotary wing projects brings online.

However, at the AUNZ PMs meet yesterday the NZ PM spoke about more and closer interoperability between NZDF & ADF, meaning that we may move to the UH-60M and MH-60R, which would give us a common airframe for both RNZAF & RNZN. I would suspect that the NZ Army may move to using the Australia Army battlefield management system and other electronic systems.
NZ does have to replace the Seasprite in the next couple of years and a move to a consolidated fleet on one airframe would make sense. There are 3 realistic options for a Seasprite replacement, the NFH-90, AW-159 and MH-60R. The RAN conducted trials for fitting the MRH-90 inside the Anzac Hangars, they fit but it is extremely tight, so any future NZ Frigate would probably require a larger Hangar for the NFH-90.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I was looking to the future when new advanced rotary wing and tilt wing capabilities become available. Unlike Australia, NZ tends to keep capabilities for 30+ years before upgrading them, so if we acquired Blackhawks in the 2029 - 34 period, we would not look to replace them until 2060 -2070. By waiting the tens years we would be in a far better position to move to new capabilities.
Of course there is the danger that in waiting a decade, one might end up finding that the only available platform (if looking to a US design anyway) still ends up being some version of the UH-60 or MH-60 Black Hawk. Looking back at some of the history of the Sikorsky S-70, it entered US service in 1979, with the first export versions I could come across being "civilian" variants exported to the PRC in ~1983 whilst the first military versions not being exported until 1986. Given the numbers the US would need to have produced to replace the various H-60's already in US service, it could easily be a number of years before any production slots might become available. This might mean that in trying to wait for whatever the US ends up bringing into service, it might be 15 years from now before the replacement could be ordered by others. Again, this is also assuming that there are no programme issues encountered by the US which either delay the entry into service, or just outright prevent it altogether.

Given some of the stupid shenanigans going on now with getting bills passed in the US Congress and past history, I cannot discount the possibility that future bills which should have budget allocations to complete development of the FVL and/or actually get their production started with orders placed, never ending up getting passed. Shades of the RAH-66 Comanche come to mind, though I am not aware of the FVL programmes having some of the more ridiculous capability requirements that the Comanche had. Unfort though the US is still known for having programme requirements foisted upon them by good idea fairies that seem to make more rationally thinking people go, "WTF?" And yes, LCS programme I am looking at you.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
NZ does have to replace the Seasprite in the next couple of years and a move to a consolidated fleet on one airframe would make sense. There are 3 realistic options for a Seasprite replacement, the NFH-90, AW-159 and MH-60R. The RAN conducted trials for fitting the MRH-90 inside the Anzac Hangars, they fit but it is extremely tight, so any future NZ Frigate would probably require a larger Hangar for the NFH-90.
I think that you can discount the NFH. Problems it's having in other navies make it extremely risky and it's not operated by a FVEY navy. Since 2015 the NZG has become quite risk adverse WRT defence acquisitions. If we were like this when we acquired the NH90 and SH-2G(I) Seasprites, neither of those acquisitions would've been approved. Most likely we would have gone with the Blackhawk and either the Seahawk or the Lynx / Super Lynx. I suspect that the MH-60R will be the preferred platform because it's operated by two FVEY navies and it's the least risky option.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Short answer; Yes.

The MRH90 fleet in Army service was grounded following the fatal July 2023 crash which remains under investigation. At present it appears that the investigation will not be concluded until some time in 2024, and that at present it is expected that Australia will have received a dozen new UH-60 Black Hawks by the end of 2024. Given that there were a pair of Australian MRH90's in accidents this year, the first being a forced ditch back in March and then the fatal accident in July, questions would exist on whether the Australian helicopters are safe for service and these will remain until the investigations have determined the cause. At this point it does not seem likely that the cause or causes of the fatal accident will be known and any mitigation efforts completed before the MRH90's planned withdrawal from service in 2024. When one factors in efforts by NHI to reach a global availability rate of 50% in 2023, it is little wonder why Australia is not bothering to try and get it's Taipans back into the air before retiring them next year.
It doesn't happen very often, but have to disagree (mostly) here.

The immediate decision to ground was absolutely correct, always the best course of action until a cause is identified. Having said that, there would be clear indications by now if there was a systemic fleet issue, or if it was restricted to one frame or one crew. If the former, the fix would have been started to roll out; the latter and it would have enabled the grounding to be lifted. Just in time for high-risk weather season (where now we send CH-47 and hire helos, neither of which are suitable).

Note that in 96 (under the old airworthiness system), 04 and 06 (under the new one), Black Hawks were already flying by now

Rightly or wrongly, I don't think the airworthiness issue is anything but convenience now (except, it's high risk weather season....)
 

MickB

Well-Known Member
It doesn't happen very often, but have to disagree (mostly) here.

The immediate decision to ground was absolutely correct, always the best course of action until a cause is identified. Having said that, there would be clear indications by now if there was a systemic fleet issue, or if it was restricted to one frame or one crew. If the former, the fix would have been started to roll out; the latter and it would have enabled the grounding to be lifted. Just in time for high-risk weather season (where now we send CH-47 and hire helos, neither of which are suitable).

Note that in 96 (under the old airworthiness system), 04 and 06 (under the new one), Black Hawks were already flying by now

Rightly or wrongly, I don't think the airworthiness issue is anything but convenience now (except, it's high risk weather season....)
Apart from the expense of rolling out a fix across a fleet of Helos (with low serviveability rates at the best of times) that are expected to retire in a year, what if it is declared safe, put back in service and goes down with a dozen or so civilian evacuees on board?
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If I were a betting man, which in this case I am not, but one with rather a lot of experience of helos and their issues, I would guess, from the results of the accidents, that the March in JB was the result of a mechanical while the fatal was not. There are some fixes to problems which can take many months to develop, and then more months or years to implement; and in the other space some inherent aircraft limitations which mean that whatever you do, that limitation will remain. I have no experience of high speed flight over water at was apparently low level and at night in an MRH-90 but in any helicopter (or fixed wing aircraft for that matter) that is always regarded as a high risk flight regime, particularly if the sea is very calm. But we will have to wait to see what relative weights the AIB assigns to the mechanical and human factors in each case. But the grounding was, at least initially, certainly the only correct approach until at least preliminary assessments were available.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Seems a waste. We should just donate them to the Ukraine or even NZ. Most of the issues around this helicopter seem to be around maintainability and low service rates rather than actual safety issues.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
If I were a betting man, which in this case I am not, but one with rather a lot of experience of helos and their issues, I would guess, from the results of the accidents, that the March in JB was the result of a mechanical while the fatal was not. There are some fixes to problems which can take many months to develop, and then more months or years to implement; and in the other space some inherent aircraft limitations which mean that whatever you do, that limitation will remain. I have no experience of high speed flight over water at was apparently low level and at night in an MRH-90 but in any helicopter (or fixed wing aircraft for that matter) that is always regarded as a high risk flight regime, particularly if the sea is very calm. But we will have to wait to see what relative weights the AIB assigns to the mechanical and human factors in each case. But the grounding was, at least initially, certainly the only correct approach until at least preliminary assessments were available.
My understanding is that the March accident was determined to have been neither pilot or mechanical, but rather was a software issue which was to have been resolved with a patch. I cannot recall whether the software issue was specifically involving the engine, or the fly-by-wire flight control system, or possibly both. I do wonder though whether the ditching event back in March was the result of an issue similar to a fatal accident the Dutch experienced off Aruba in 2020.

What I consider likely is that following the fatal accident, the status and condition of the MRH90 fleet was looked at and it was determined that the costs to get the fleet back in the air, plus what the actual costs would be to sustain operations and it was determined that the costs and effort/resources was deemed not worthwhile given that a decision to replace the fleet starting in 2024 had already been made IIRC. One must remember that the six MRH90's the RAN operated were retired from service in 2022, so the type in Australian service was already on the way out by the time there was a 2nd grounding of the Australian MRH90 fleet.
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
Seems a waste. We should just donate them to the Ukraine or even NZ. Most of the issues around this helicopter seem to be around maintainability and low service rates rather than actual safety issues.
Are they being dis-assembled for parts, or merely junked?
The announcement seems to imply that dis-assembly is happening, so the parts may end up helping someone.
MB
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I’m old fashioned! - I tend to categorise as either mechanical or human, with software included in “mechanical”! So a problem with the auto hover or the FCS more generally I would classify as mechanical - and it could easily have been something like that.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Let's be frank, His story is fully of a lot of claims little actual evidence. Gov may be stripping them apart to scrap them but gov also likes to make a dollar when or where they can so if they are stripping them apart they are also likely setting aside parts that can be used by others for resale while junking the rest. Hell they may be stripping the goodies out just to throw the air frames at a few RSL's/museums and the rest on a target range.

Only time I can recall us scrapping anything with no attempt to sell parts of was with the F-111's and that is because we where the last bloody user of them, No market for parts to be sold.
 
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