ADF: Tenix and Bofors artillery upgrade (Land 17)

[Supe]

I don't see the ADF going down a tracked route for an SPG let alone buying an oldish platform like the Paladin. If they are going tracked, they'd probably be looking at a newer design. Something like the Pzh2000 perhaps? I've also heard mention from folks on other forums of the Primus and K9 tracked SPG's.

Is it feasible or desirable for the ADF to have a mix of tracked and wheeled? Going by the 'high mobility' force that the Army is aiming for (as the Bushmaster/ASLAVS suggest), I think tracked is unlikely.

I thought this pdf found on defence.gov.au would be of interest to those taking an interest in this thread:

Armada International - Self Propelled - 52 and Autoloading the Trend

http://www.defence.gov.au/army/8_12MDM/

Edit: Fixed for flow

 

[gf0012-aust]

Something like the Pzh200 perhaps? I've also heard mention by folks other forums of the Primus and K9 tracked SPG's.

Both the Pzh2 and the K9 had a substantial audience at the last LandWarfare Conf.

The cyclic ROF on the K9 is lower IIRC for sustained fire but it was also substaintiall cheaper. It's FCS was also less flash.

The Sth Koreans were trying to sweeten the offering by providing reduced armaments costs as well.

 

[Aussie Digger]

AD: Do you think the the US paladin sp artillery system would be make a worth while contribution to the army? i suppose they would be costly and maybe being a tracked vehicle might be a problem, but i sort of look at them as being a battle tested platform.

The Australian Army tested M109A6 Paladin's back in the mid 90's during the A21 trials, so they would be fairly familiar with them, but I doubt they'd choose them now. I think the Army wants a wheeled SPG. They definitely want a 52 calibre SPG, whereas Paladin is only 39 Calibre (meaning much shorter range)...

They are a battle tested platform but so is AS90 and other systems. I think tracked SPG's would prove too costly and too difficult to move about for Australia's liking. Other than a little better cross country performance I don't see any great benefit in a tracked artillery piece over a wheeled one.

No artillery piece can fire on the move and no artillery piece can fire "completely" closed down, ie: "under armour". I prefer the lower support costs, similar range/kinematic performance for munitions and greater on road and "strategic" deployability you get with wheeled vehicles for this capability...

 

[Aussie Digger]

I've just seen a new project on the DMO website, which lists project as the medium Artillery replacement ammunition project. The project goals are to introduce new ammo types for the M198 155mm howitzer and are expecting a capability enhancement of "60% greater lethality, 70% greater range, 190% greater coverage and a 40% improvement in logitistical efficiency". The ammo types will include base bleed units and "improved conventional munitions".

Good to see the ADF is not waiting around entirely for Land 17 to improve it's artillery capability. The DMO websites also lists a new project to acquire a new "long range" 81mm mortar for the Australian Army, which along with the new 81mm ammo they are using now should provide a reasonable boost for army firepower. Now if we could only acquire some self-propelled 120mm mortars...

 

[cherry]

Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what types and numbers of platforms will be attained under Land 17?

My guess is that the 36 155mm towed howitzers will be replaced by around 40 SPH (probably either Archer or Ceasar), the remaining 105mm towed howitzers will be replaced by around 80 towed light weight 155mm howitzers and both of these supplemented by around 20 MLRS. This is on top of the 80mm mortars to be purchased.

 

[Cootamundra]

Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what types and numbers of platforms will be attained under Land 17?

My guess is that the 36 155mm towed howitzers will be replaced by around 40 SPH (probably either Archer or Ceasar), the remaining 105mm towed howitzers will be replaced by around 80 towed light weight 155mm howitzers and both of these supplemented by around 20 MLRS. This is on top of the 80mm mortars to be purchased.

Cheery, I reckon if we got everything you've listed it would be great but nothing I've read supports your claim of MLRS. Sure it would be great but I can't see it. Also what kind of towed 155mm howitzer are you talking about? Will it be helo transportable like the Hammel guns? If we got 40 SPH the reserves will be plenty happy cause then they'll be using the same kit as the big boys.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Cheery, I reckon if we got everything you've listed it would be great but nothing I've read supports your claim of MLRS. Sure it would be great but I can't see it. Also what kind of towed 155mm howitzer are you talking about? Will it be helo transportable like the Hammel guns? If we got 40 SPH the reserves will be plenty happy cause then they'll be using the same kit as the big boys.

Not the entire Reserve though, as the reserve Arty Regt's currently operate a mix of almost 100, L118/9 and M2A2 105mm towed guns.

There are also quite a few factors at play here. 1. 8/12 Mdm Regt currently operates 2x Bty's of 6 guns. If a new battalion were to be added to 1 Bde, 8/12 would need to be equipped with an additional Battery of guns, providing it with 18 guns in total.

Also 7 Brigade's 4th field regt is now equipped with a single Bty of 6x 155mm guns, but the intention is I believe, to fully equip 4 Field with 155mm SPH guns, under Land 17, meaning that it too would be equipped with 18 guns.

The School of Arty would then need to be equipped with 6+ guns, plus others for attrition, maintenance etc. If this is the case then 40+ SPH guns would need to be acquired.

Then a new "lightweight" gun would need to be chosen. Army's requirements are that it's future Arty fleet be 155mm calibre only, fleet wide. So that seemingly rules out any L118/9 upgrades, and means that a gun similar to the M-777 155mm gun or perhaps the new Singaporean Lightweight 155mm gun (M-777 copy...) would be chosen to entirely replace the Reserve's current fleet.

All this however, is going to be pretty damned expensive. What might happen (and what i think will happen) is 1 Brigade and 7 Brigade will get a new SPH. 3 Brigade ONLY will get a new lightweight 155mm gun and the reserves will have to make do with "hand me down" M198's...

Either this, or Government will not fund a full Arty upgrade and a small SPH purchase will occur and the L118/9 upgrade will occur and Army will be stuck with near useless 105mm towed guns, which it doesn't want....

I remain extremely sceptical of Australia gaining a rocket artillery capability under Land 17 and would almost bet my house that we will NOT acquire MLRS...

 

[cherry]

Cheery, I reckon if we got everything you've listed it would be great but nothing I've read supports your claim of MLRS. Sure it would be great but I can't see it. Also what kind of towed 155mm howitzer are you talking about?

Yes, I know the likelyhood of purchasing MLRS is next to none but I thought I would throw in at least one thing from the wishlist. Geez, if I had my way I would throw in at least 20 120mm mortars based on ASLAV but that aint going to happen either. I do seriously believe that around 40 wheeled SPH will be bought with the rest of the forces recieving something like the M777 lightweight howitzer. Whether or not our Reserves get the same is anyone's guess although logic would suggest that converting our entire forces into 155mm would make for easier logistics than having both 155mm and 105mm but logic does seem to escape some people.
For a true Hardened Networked Army I think a wider range of capabilities and weapons bought in smaller numbers needs to happen so that a wider range of options is there for our forces and our Government.

 

[rossfrb_1]

Just a few recent (hopefully relevant) snippets that have come my way via www.diar.com

SOLTAM SYSTEMS JOINS BOEING FOR LAND 17 ARTILLERY:
Boeing Australia Limited (BAL) and Israeli-based Soltam Systems
have formed a partnership to offer the 155mm/52 calibre ATHOS
towed/ATMOS truck mounted integrated artillery solutions to the
ADF in response to its evolving requirements under project Land 17.
The partnership will draw on Soltam's 50 years of experience in
artillery systems, and Boeing's systems analysis laboratory and
test & integration facilities (including legacy ADF command &
control systems integration), to bring forward what Soltam's
Business Manager, Viki Fadlon, says will be "a cost effective,
flexible solution to Land 17 that has economical life support." [06.10.05]

************************************************************

ADI SWAMPS ARMY CONFERENCE WITH CITY-SIZED DISPLAY:
In one of the largest stands ever seen at an Australian military
equipment and services exhibition, ADI Limited has put on display
at the LWC elements of its Giat 'Caesar' 155mm artillery system
(proposed for project Land 17); [snip][05.10.05]

**********************************************************************

MINISTERIAL VISIT RELEVANT TO ‘WEDGETAIL’ AND LAND 17:
Following discussions with the South Korean Minister for National Defence,
Yoon Kwang-Ung, to discuss the security situation of the Korean Peninsula
and opportunities where Australia and South Korea can build defence
industry cooperation, Hill confirmed he was able to showcase Australia's
'Wedgetail' AEW&C aircraft capabilities, currently a candidate (via Boeing)
for a South Korean acquisition. [snip] Senator Hill also visited Samsung Techwin (in Changwon) to inspect production of the new K9 self-propelled Howitzer, which South Korea has indicated it would like to offer the ADF for its project Land 17 requirement. [23.10.05]

 

[gf0012-aust]

AFAIK there were some OH&S safety issues with Caeser. I saw some people at LWC who were indicating that drop lengths were obstructed and needed changing.

As for the K9. Spoke to some of the Sth Korean reps present and I was quite impressed with it. There were issues of ROF and degraded ROF which made it uncompetitive with something like PZH2000, but it was good value for the money.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

The ADF needs a "lightweight" Arty system for 3 Brigade, or else the light infantry troops of that Brigade will be deploying on ops without Artillery support for the first few days. Something totally unnacceptable to the Australian Army...

I'd suggest that an SPG system will be acquired to replace the M198 system on a one for one basis, or possibly slightly increased numbers (to equip 7 Brigade with a Medm Artillery Regt as well as 1 Brigade). I'm not sure about the rest of the ADF's field guns.

The Army wants to replace it's entire artillery fleet with 155mm guns, as all of it's current fleet is towed and the lightweight and VERY short ranged L118 Hamel gun is the predominant piece throughout the Army. Significant numbers of the Korean War era M2A2 are STILL operated however and these are severely obsolete. Only 36 M198's are currently operated.

What has been suggested as the most likely scenario is that 2 Regt's worth of SPG's will be acquired, the L118 Hamel's will either be upgraded or replaced with a new "lightweight" 155mm towed gun and employed within 3 Brigade. The M198's would possibly then be cascaded down to the lower readiness units currently operating the M2A2's.

One thing that worries me about this project is there doesn't seem to be enought money allocated to replace the Army's Arty fleet. The most likely situation IMHO is that a small number of SPG's will be acquired to equip 1 Brigade, some L118's will be upgraded and some M198's will filter down to reserve units and some M2A2's will HAVE to be retained simply to equip some units with an artillery capability at all.

The situation will be the same as AIR 9000 has become. Instead of sticking with the original plan and funding it properly, the ADF will instead acquire a small quantity of the new capability and have MORE types of different assets essentially performing the same job to various degrees, moving from the current 3 to 4 different artillery types...

The ADF thanks to AIR 9000 will actually INCREASE to 10 helo platforms for a short duration before settling back down to 8, only 1 less than the 9 current platforms. The initial plan was to reduce the fleet to 4, but in-service bickering and a lack of funding saw this plan essentially scrapped...

Aussie, is it just my imagination or has Arty fallen from being the Battle winner to Gate Guardian? It seems to this civillian that the emphasis on the sexy special ops and the laser guided bomb perception of war ( At least to elected ploicy makers) means that the tried and true tools like Arty are falling by the way side.

Your reference to governments buying many different systems that essentially do the same job shows to me that either the purchasers are very confused when they hear "Multi mission capabilty" or they are being really buttered up expertly by the sales agents!

I personally think that all arty should be self propelled (Except of course the air mobile stuff)

In Canada we are making due with a light 105 towed ( Italian make I believe, and of course the M109 SPG). But don't quote me on that, because after all, I am just a civie

 

[Aussie Digger]

Aussie, is it just my imagination or has Arty fallen from being the Battle winner to Gate Guardian? It seems to this civillian that the emphasis on the sexy special ops and the laser guided bomb perception of war ( At least to elected ploicy makers) means that the tried and true tools like Arty are falling by the way side.

Your reference to governments buying many different systems that essentially do the same job shows to me that either the purchasers are very confused when they hear "Multi mission capabilty" or they are being really buttered up expertly by the sales agents!

I personally think that all arty should be self propelled (Except of course the air mobile stuff)

In Canada we are making due with a light 105 towed ( Italian make I believe, and of course the M109 SPG). But don't quote me on that, because after all, I am just a civie

Not really, there were extensive artillery duels during Gulf War 2, with WW2 style gun batteries slugging it out with each other at extended ranges.

I agree, (particularly in the Australian context) that all arty should be self propelled, with the exception of that which supports air mobile units.

LGB's etc are all well and good, but what air power proponents always seem to overlook is persistance. Even heavy bombers have a limited duration over a battlefield. Tube and rocket artillery can stay in position and pound away for ever (depending on tactical circumstances of course)...

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Aussie, if I may forward a candidate for the Mortar job. I like what I see with the CV90 AMOS, self propelles twin tubed 120 mm mortar system, in fact the whole family of CV90 sysytems looks like decent kit, though it is tracked, which in my humble opinion is a plus, you don't have roads to use all the time.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Aussie, if I may forward a candidate for the Mortar job. I like what I see with the CV90 AMOS, self propelles twin tubed 120 mm mortar system, in fact the whole family of CV90 sysytems looks like decent kit, though it is tracked, which in my humble opinion is a plus, you don't have roads to use all the time.

I too think this is a pretty decent system, though I doubt we'll be purchasing the CV-90 any time soon. I believe that the turret can be fitted to other vehicles, however. An ASLAV AMOS system, would probably be pretty interesting to Army...

Another interesting thing about the Australian Army's Land 17 Artillery Replacement project is that the $750 Million they have to spend on new artillery is for Phase 1 only... Hopefully given an updated defence acquisition plan due out soon, further phases incorporating these sorts of capabilities may be planned and "funded"....

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Aussie, also the MBT version of CV90 is pretty potent, not that I am an sales agent for them, but to have a complete family of vehicles that are sharing the same hull and other dynamic systems is a maintainers dream, the CV90 120 uses a high pressure 120 mm smooth bore main gun and can fire all the 120 mm Anti Tank and other munitions with ease.

 

[Supe]

In Canada we are making due with a light 105 towed ( Italian make I believe, and of course the M109 SPG). But don't quote me on that, because after all, I am just a civie

Just to keep you updated, you are now owners of M777's and the Paladin's have been retired.

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-artym777.htm

This link shows possible replacement SPG's...

Canadian Forces Artillery — FIFC (Future Indirect Fire Capability)

Edit:

Now this looks interesting.

arrgh! Having a working

 

[Aussie Digger]

Just to keep you updated, you are now owners of M777's and the Paladin's have been retired.

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-artym777.htm

This link shows possible replacement SPG's...

Canadian Forces Artillery — FIFC (Future Indirect Fire Capability)

Edit:

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/artyfifc-6.jpg

Now this looks interesting.

arrgh! Having a working tag would be a step up. It's one of the annoyances about this site.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure the Canadians have a total of 6 M777's so far, and only due to an urgent operational requirement for Afghanistan.

Also in relation to CV-90's. Why would we wany 120mm gun versions? Our new M1A1's are arriving soon. Surely you don't think a CV-90 is superior to an M1A1???

 

[Aussie Digger]

GOVERNMENT TO IMPROVE ARMY’S FIREPOWER​

The Government has provided first pass approval for the replacement of Army’s current 105mm and 155mm artillery pieces with new, more capable, artillery systems under a project known as LAND 17.

Defence will now develop the project which invests in artillery systems with longer range, improved precision, and better crew protection.

Options for replacing the current towed artillery pieces include a mix of protected self-propelled artillery systems, and lightweight towed artillery systems.

As an additional benefit, the project will also examine advanced high precision munitions and a networked command and fire control system.

LAND 17 will give the Army a very potent and accurate land-based firepower capability.
The project is another example of the Government’s ongoing commitment to providing the ADF with enhanced firepower to meet current and emerging threats in complex warfighting environments.

The implementation of LAND 17 supports the Government’s strategy for a Hardened and Networked Army (HNA). LAND 17 will make the combined arms groups being developed under HNA more capable and versatile, by providing them with improved firepower, extended range, greater mobility and accuracy.

The capability is an important contributor to the requirements set out in the Defence 2000 White Paper, by providing sustained investment in land force capabilities, and by supporting the ADF’s capacity to sustain a brigade deployed on operations for extended periods whilst maintaining at least a battalion group available for deployment elsewhere.

Defence has been working closely with industry and the Department plans to release an open Request for Tender later this year, to identify companies that can provide artillery systems with the level of capability sought.The new system would be brought into service over the period 2011-2013 at a total cost of between $450 million and $600 million.

Once in service, the new artillery pieces will be used to re-equip units based in Darwin, Townsville, Brisbane and the Combined Arms Training Centre in Puckapunyal, Victoria.

So basically the regular units will get new arty, the reserve will be required as usual to soldier on with "legacy" equipment...

Bring on the Caesar I say...

 

[Supe]

What do you think of the Archer? Crew requirements are lower for the Archer (3 vs 5) and it stores more rounds. (I'm going from a matrix in Defence Today). The Archer looks like it affords the crew decent protection too.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I think Archer would be an excellent buy for Army, except for a couple of things. It's not finished it's testing and development yet, and is not in-service with anyone. I think it's been ordered however, but Army might resist it on that basis.

It's likely to be expensive with that flashy auto-loader and no matter how good the auto-loader is, a "dig's" arm is more certain of not f*cking up at a crucial moment...

It has to be mounted on the Volvo truck. This would add yet another class of vehicle to the Army inventory, in extremely small numbers. Casaer might be available on the Unimog replacement.

As long as they don't choose the K-9, AS-90 or G6-52 I'll be happy. The Army can well do without any of those behemoths...

A truck mounted 155-52cal Arty system with an armoured cabin and an advanced fire control system will do the ADF, more than adequately...

At any rate this is project is going to be a major upheavel for the Royal Regiment of Australian Artillery. It's current system of BCP's (Battery Command Posts) are going to be obsolote once these new systems are in place.

In addition the greater use of PGM's (Excalibur is a dead certainty for this project) and new capabilities such as MSIR (multiple simulataneously impacting rounds) means the firepower of the new system, will far outweigh the existing M198 capability...

The range enhancements obviously speak for themselves...