This is a very difficult project to guage. There is very little out there in terms of information, in particular of what the ADF are actually wanting, and prices for all of the different platforms. It will probably come down to between the Caesar and the Archer. Both are very impressive looking platforms with each having some advantages over the other. But again, who knows what the hell Army are wanting. I'd prefer one of these two systems to be chosen along with a large fleet of M777 A1 towed artillery pieces to supplement them. An MLRS system also (in small numbers 15-20 pieces) needs to be aquired in another phase of LAND 17 IMO. Perhaps now that first pass approval has been given to the project, we may start to hear a few more specifics as to where this capability upgrade is heading.
ADF: Tenix and Bofors artillery upgrade (Land 17)
- Thread starter Supe
- Start date
I would think that the M777 for the towed option, as for the self propelled, I believe the Archer is not deployable by C-130. However the Caesar is not ‘hardened’ it does not protect the crew. The Germans are developing a light weight variant of the PzH 2000 (link below) that may be an option.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/artillery/
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/artillery/
knightrider4
Active Member
Land 17
I didn't think that being air transportable by a C130-J for a self propelled artillery peice would be of concern. The Caesar is now based I believe on the Renault Sherpa and not the unimog as it was previously so you will still have another vehicle type to maintain. I much prefer the Archer it's low crewing requirement is great and I think the autoloader wont be an issue. I also believe that the caesar's networking ability is based on a rather basic radio setup??? Although other members may well clarify this point.
I didn't think that being air transportable by a C130-J for a self propelled artillery peice would be of concern. The Caesar is now based I believe on the Renault Sherpa and not the unimog as it was previously so you will still have another vehicle type to maintain. I much prefer the Archer it's low crewing requirement is great and I think the autoloader wont be an issue. I also believe that the caesar's networking ability is based on a rather basic radio setup??? Although other members may well clarify this point.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
The prototype Caesar's were mounted on a Unimog chassis, so there's obviously no real integration issues if we wanted to go that route as well. From a quick read of Caesar and Archer on army-technology, the fire control and "networking" capability seem to be pretty much the same. Either way I won't be upset if the Army chooses a particular system, I do think that these 2 stand out from the pack though and I wouldn't be unhappy if Land 17 came down to a comparison between these 2...knightrider4 said:
knightrider4
Active Member
Land 17.
I guess of equal importance is will the Army pursue a lightweight towed 155mm system for the high readiness units out of Townsville? I see Bofors is offering their newest version of the FH77 which is capable of limited tactical self propelled mobility or maybe the M777A1 or even the Singaporean lightweight system. I wouldn't like to see us rely soley on the large SPG's.
I guess of equal importance is will the Army pursue a lightweight towed 155mm system for the high readiness units out of Townsville? I see Bofors is offering their newest version of the FH77 which is capable of limited tactical self propelled mobility or maybe the M777A1 or even the Singaporean lightweight system. I wouldn't like to see us rely soley on the large SPG's.
same bloke - different haircut...knightrider4 said:
knightrider4
Active Member
Arty.
But more to the point Gf do you think Army will select a lightweight system on top of the SPG to equip the high readiness units of the Australian Army. Or will the SPG's go to 1st Brigade and the M198's go to 3rd?gf0012-aust said:
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
I doubt we'll get a "heavy-weight" SPG system for Land 17, due to the expense and "supportability" of such systems. I don't see the need for 3 Brigade to soley operate towed guns though.knightrider4 said:
Army is investing in a range of firepower systems in coming years and if Army gets it's way and soley operates 155mm Artillery, I'd reckon it's a fair chance that an intermediate capability such as 120mm mortars would be acquired to bridge the gap between 81mm mortars and artillery and to boost firepower. Such a system wouldn't necessarily be vehicle mounted and would be far more easily transported than any arty system, whilst giving effects (lethality not range) close to that of conventional 155mm munitions.
In these circumstances, towed arty would be a liability, we could do without. Wheeled systems like the Caesar can be airlifted by C-130 Hercules, without significant disassembly and have roughly equal mobility to the ASLAV/Bushmaster variants 3 Brigade troops would be moved around with on most ops. By not choosing a towed system, the Army would be free to put more funding into it's Artillery system and limiting it's logisitical requirements.
The limited advantages an air mobile "towed artillery" capability would give us (considering the few numbers involved), are outweighed by the additional expense involved, in my book, given that towed guns need a vehicle to move them around the battlefield and another vehicle to carry their ammunition for them anyway... These vehicles are generally not airlifted in any event and a greatly expanded Chinook fleet would be needed to make them so...
Add all these costs into the equation and see if anyone else thinks a small towed arty capability, which will only be provided to one Brigade (ie: 12x guns) plus a few for the training schools makes sense???
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
The M198's will go to the reserve arty units to replace their existing M2A2 and L119 "Hamel" light towed guns. A small purchase of 155mm light guns would give us 3x small fleets of totally disparate guns, something the Army has now, and is trying to eliminate...knightrider4 said:
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #50
I downloaded an excellent vid on gunners setting up/firing/dismantling a M198 and have a new appreciation for the work of the gunners. I didn't realise how manpower intensive they were. (watching made me thirsty. Looks damn hot at at Mt Bundy). Quite an eye opener. I also downloaded Archer and G6 vids and was impressed with the autoloading systems. Firing is a breeze.
Edit: AD, I don't see why Army can't mothball the 105's and in effect field only 155's. Mothballing the 105's leaves the gate open for re-introducing back into service if need arrives.
Edit: AD, I don't see why Army can't mothball the 105's and in effect field only 155's. Mothballing the 105's leaves the gate open for re-introducing back into service if need arrives.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
I have no doubt that the newer 105mm guns would be put into "war storage" nd I have no problem with it personally. There's only a 3 day conversion course to re-train an M198 crew into a Hamel crew. I do think that the 105mm towed guns are nearly obsolete now though and should be replacedby all 155mm capability.Supe said:
You are quite correct though, "man-handling" towed guns is hard work and I'd prefer to "hump" through the bush any day then push a gun UP Mt Bundy as gunners have had to do...
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #52
Here's 8th / 12th MDM REGT page. They've got a few cool vids to download. The 'Direct Fire (101st MDM Bty 2004)' vid is pretty good. I hear these guys are in Adelaide for training. The site also hosts an Archer and G6 (low quality) vid.
http://www4.janes.com/subscribe/jdw/doc_view.jsp?K2DocKey=/content1/janesdata/mags/jdw/history/jdw2006/jdw13561.htm@current&Prod_Name=JDW&QueryText=
"HEADLINES
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006
JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - MARCH 01, 2006
Australian Army gets approval for new artillery
IAN BOSTOCK JDW Correspondent
Sydney
* The Australian Army is likely to favour wheeled self-propelled howitzer systems
* Competing wheeled SPH manufacturers are each teamed with Australian partners to ensure through-life support
The Australian Army's artillery acquisition programme, which is worth AUD450 million-AUD600 million (USD332 million-USD442.5 million), has received first pass approval from the cabinet and will now move toward the release of a request for tender (RfT) to potential suppliers later in 2006.
Under Project Land 17, the army's existing L119 Hamel 105 mm light guns and M-198 155 mm towed howitzers will be replaced, probably with a mix of 155 mm lightweight towed howitzers and self-propelled howitzers (SPHs).
Wheeled SPH systems are likely to be favoured due to their lower acquisition and ownership costs, and preference will be shown for proven systems already in service elsewhere.
To ensure a measure of local industry involvement and product through-life support, wheeled SPH manufacturers Giat Industries, Soltam Systems and Bofors Defence have each teamed with an Australian partner.
Giat, teamed with ADI Ltd since 2004, is offering a variant of its Caesar system. Soltam Systems, together with Boeing Australia, is proposing its Autonomous Truck Mounted System (ATMOS). Bofors Defence and Tenix Defence will together propose the Archer 6 x 6 155 mm/52-cal SPH.
In 2005 ADI supported a demonstration tour of a Caesar prototype around Australia's east coast, which involved the system travelling 2,500 km under its own power. Units in production for the French Army will feature the new Renault Sherpa 5 6 x 6 tactical truck as the base mobility platform. However, ADI is exploring an alternative that would use the Caesar integrated with a modified version of its developmental Armoured Combat Support Vehicle (ACSV).
The ACSV is derived from the company's in-service Bushmaster 4 x 4 protected troop carrier. ADI told Jane's that it foresaw few difficulties in integrating and mounting the howitzer's elevating mass and ordnance onto the platform, while a spokesman noted that this would allow high logistics support commonality with the army's 300- strong Bushmaster fleet.
The Giat/ADI team is also proposing the Thales ATLAS digital command, control, communications, computing and intelligence system and ADI's VMF tactical datalink.
These would provide a scaleable and fully integrated field artillery system and fit with the army's vision for a more network-enabled force.
The ATMOS is understood to be in Israeli service and has been supplied to an undisclosed African customer. The system mates the 39-, 45- or 52-cal elevating mass/ordnance from Soltam's towed howitzer range with a 6 x 6 Tatra cab-chassis. ATMOS is also designed to be readily mountable on a variety of military truck chassis.
For the Australian requirement, Soltam/Boeing Australia will consider adopting an 8 x 8 MAN truck with an armoured cab. Commonality may be sought between the MAN resupply vehicle elements of the ATMOS system and those vehicles which MAN Nutzfahrzeuge is offering to supply the Australian Army under the Overlander truck replacement programme.
The Archer system is on order for the Swedish and Danish armies. This utilises a Volvo A30D articulated hauler and is capable of highly automated operation. Bofors Defence says Archer requires a crew of just three and can fire its full magazine complement of 20 rounds in 2.5 minutes.
Candidate towed 155 mm howitzers may include the M777 ultra lightweight field howitzer from BAE Systems. Other potential suppliers are not yet known, but Singapore Technologies Kinetics' Pegasus 155 mm/39-cal lightweight towed howitzer is in service with the Singaporean army.
Respondents to the Land 17 RfT will be given three months to lodge their bids. An in-service date for the new artillery capabilities of 2011-2013 has been set.
Archer system targets Australian Army project (jdw.janes.com, 14/07/05) "
rb
"HEADLINES
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006
JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - MARCH 01, 2006
Australian Army gets approval for new artillery
IAN BOSTOCK JDW Correspondent
Sydney
* The Australian Army is likely to favour wheeled self-propelled howitzer systems
* Competing wheeled SPH manufacturers are each teamed with Australian partners to ensure through-life support
The Australian Army's artillery acquisition programme, which is worth AUD450 million-AUD600 million (USD332 million-USD442.5 million), has received first pass approval from the cabinet and will now move toward the release of a request for tender (RfT) to potential suppliers later in 2006.
Under Project Land 17, the army's existing L119 Hamel 105 mm light guns and M-198 155 mm towed howitzers will be replaced, probably with a mix of 155 mm lightweight towed howitzers and self-propelled howitzers (SPHs).
Wheeled SPH systems are likely to be favoured due to their lower acquisition and ownership costs, and preference will be shown for proven systems already in service elsewhere.
To ensure a measure of local industry involvement and product through-life support, wheeled SPH manufacturers Giat Industries, Soltam Systems and Bofors Defence have each teamed with an Australian partner.
Giat, teamed with ADI Ltd since 2004, is offering a variant of its Caesar system. Soltam Systems, together with Boeing Australia, is proposing its Autonomous Truck Mounted System (ATMOS). Bofors Defence and Tenix Defence will together propose the Archer 6 x 6 155 mm/52-cal SPH.
In 2005 ADI supported a demonstration tour of a Caesar prototype around Australia's east coast, which involved the system travelling 2,500 km under its own power. Units in production for the French Army will feature the new Renault Sherpa 5 6 x 6 tactical truck as the base mobility platform. However, ADI is exploring an alternative that would use the Caesar integrated with a modified version of its developmental Armoured Combat Support Vehicle (ACSV).
The ACSV is derived from the company's in-service Bushmaster 4 x 4 protected troop carrier. ADI told Jane's that it foresaw few difficulties in integrating and mounting the howitzer's elevating mass and ordnance onto the platform, while a spokesman noted that this would allow high logistics support commonality with the army's 300- strong Bushmaster fleet.
The Giat/ADI team is also proposing the Thales ATLAS digital command, control, communications, computing and intelligence system and ADI's VMF tactical datalink.
These would provide a scaleable and fully integrated field artillery system and fit with the army's vision for a more network-enabled force.
The ATMOS is understood to be in Israeli service and has been supplied to an undisclosed African customer. The system mates the 39-, 45- or 52-cal elevating mass/ordnance from Soltam's towed howitzer range with a 6 x 6 Tatra cab-chassis. ATMOS is also designed to be readily mountable on a variety of military truck chassis.
For the Australian requirement, Soltam/Boeing Australia will consider adopting an 8 x 8 MAN truck with an armoured cab. Commonality may be sought between the MAN resupply vehicle elements of the ATMOS system and those vehicles which MAN Nutzfahrzeuge is offering to supply the Australian Army under the Overlander truck replacement programme.
The Archer system is on order for the Swedish and Danish armies. This utilises a Volvo A30D articulated hauler and is capable of highly automated operation. Bofors Defence says Archer requires a crew of just three and can fire its full magazine complement of 20 rounds in 2.5 minutes.
Candidate towed 155 mm howitzers may include the M777 ultra lightweight field howitzer from BAE Systems. Other potential suppliers are not yet known, but Singapore Technologies Kinetics' Pegasus 155 mm/39-cal lightweight towed howitzer is in service with the Singaporean army.
Respondents to the Land 17 RfT will be given three months to lodge their bids. An in-service date for the new artillery capabilities of 2011-2013 has been set.
Archer system targets Australian Army project (jdw.janes.com, 14/07/05) "
rb
Well i will lean on Aussidiggers wiew and agreed that this is the case in Australia,aslo wiht some reservation...but othervise, I completly disagree. In fact in many cases it's almoust foolish (perhaps not foolish, but still not so well tought) to choose SP systems over similar APU fitted towed gun (if both are 155mm/52). But i will clarify myself more if someone is interested...getting late and i don't want to preach to empty church....
But i do have one question; Why is Australia seeking only lightweight towed guns? There hasen't been any indications towards any 155mm/52cal towed guns whatsoever. Perhaps i'm beeing bit too noob and not realizing the general structure of Australian army, but could someone brief me quickly over ADFs current order-of-battle?
Finaly someone has the guts to give gredit to the true supermens of battlefiled!!!!:dance ...can you give me the link? Really looking foward to see if americans have same sort of wicked sense of humour when designing artillery systems???
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #55
Right click... you know the drillGollevainen said:
Check 8th / 12th MDM REGT homepage for more files.
What sort of guns/numbers are the Finns fielding?
Edit: The Finns also picked up some ex-Dutch MLRS's. What do you think of that purchase?
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well Finland has a quite big artillery arm, mainly due the WWII peace treaty that forbids us from bombers and effective numbers of military jets...the total ammount is around thousand, but Im not aware of the individual numbers so I can only list the models...
Let see, the main models are the 122mm D-30 howitzer, old soviet thingie that i spend my basic artillery training perioud...Then there's the 155mm K-83 gun-howitzer with 39 cal barrel...Israelis have taken some credit over its by their Soltam M-68, but thats just pure copy of our orginal...Those are the main models.
Then there is the new 155K98 wich is the later system wiht 52cal barrel and APU, the one i did my main service time and What I would likely use in event of war....In my biased obinion the best piece of artillery in the world
This is new system that is slowly entering service...
Other systems are more of misclenaus collection of Soviet systems like the 130mm M-46, 152mm D-20 and 2A36, the old nazis 150mm FH18 rebarreled to 152mm...the sole SP systems are the Soviet 122mm 2S1 and 152mm 2S5 but they have minium usage in our army due the defence doctrine and enverioment...they support the sole armoured brigade
there is some BM-21 and Chech RM-70 of 122mm MRLS in service...
The New aqustion of the Dutch MRLS was nice one, for long time something that has absolutely no use in 'crisis invertion' or other nonsense they are trying to pull in here...too bad the deal, that was supposed to be a bargain proved out to not to be so, as the ammunitions are pretty outdated and exhausted so We need to make futher investments to purchase new one.
Let see, the main models are the 122mm D-30 howitzer, old soviet thingie that i spend my basic artillery training perioud...Then there's the 155mm K-83 gun-howitzer with 39 cal barrel...Israelis have taken some credit over its by their Soltam M-68, but thats just pure copy of our orginal...Those are the main models.
Then there is the new 155K98 wich is the later system wiht 52cal barrel and APU, the one i did my main service time and What I would likely use in event of war....In my biased obinion the best piece of artillery in the world
This is new system that is slowly entering service...
Other systems are more of misclenaus collection of Soviet systems like the 130mm M-46, 152mm D-20 and 2A36, the old nazis 150mm FH18 rebarreled to 152mm...the sole SP systems are the Soviet 122mm 2S1 and 152mm 2S5 but they have minium usage in our army due the defence doctrine and enverioment...they support the sole armoured brigade
there is some BM-21 and Chech RM-70 of 122mm MRLS in service...
The New aqustion of the Dutch MRLS was nice one, for long time something that has absolutely no use in 'crisis invertion' or other nonsense they are trying to pull in here...too bad the deal, that was supposed to be a bargain proved out to not to be so, as the ammunitions are pretty outdated and exhausted so We need to make futher investments to purchase new one.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #57
The lessons of the Winter War should never be forgotten by the Finns. Making do with obsolete equipment and even then, too little of it cost the Finns 10% of their homeland. The Finnish people shouldn't have to be convinced that an assertive defence policy assures the Finns their sovereignty and their lifestyle. While sending troops around the world in Peacekeeping/making roles is a good thing, it shouldn't be packaged to the public as the only thing they do. The acceptable military format has become a wheeled APC and some light weaponary sans dealing with the reality of the every changing world we live in.Gollevainen said:
At the end of the day, the Finnish Gov must maintain in its arsenal, potent offensive power. Deterrence through strength.
Agreed, tough lot help is that we maintain good relations to certain neighbour of us...the only possiple aggressor that could be imagined. The thing is that in the past, our stubbornance and narrowmindness have prevented us esthabilising good relations to our neighbourcountryes and thus, perhaps not being the main reason for agressions, but at least haven't helped preventing them.
But ithink we are bit offtopic here...about 6000 km...shall we drift back to Australia?
But ithink we are bit offtopic here...about 6000 km...shall we drift back to Australia?
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #59
Does anyone know if Denel's G6-52 is under serious consideration? Looking at the driver cab in particular(and vehicle), looks quite close to the ground which could impact on crew survivability (mines/IEDs).
Some news on Land 17 from an Australian defence journal - Defence Today:
Protected rules out Land 17 contenders, DefenceToday, March/April 2006
Not out at the newsagency yet.
Some news on Land 17 from an Australian defence journal - Defence Today:
Protected rules out Land 17 contenders, DefenceToday, March/April 2006
Not out at the newsagency yet.
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dont think G6 is a serious contender,it is a very capable piece of kit,however it is very heavy and dificult to transport by air(even with C17). I have seen seen some very bogged vehicles in the top end of australia during the wet season,rangeing from leo,s,mogs,landrovers,and land cruisers....even foot soldiers! I think a G6 would be to much of a hand full in our region....difficult to recover. Which makes me think,that in our region(think about PNG etc) are towed,easily air transportable, light guns obsolete...i think they have a role,what do others think?